13:2 - Po vs. Ghost Predator

[Movie-Brat]

Even then, Prey was a back to basics deal and I found it effective. Plus, can't hate a Predator film where he effectively kills racist colonizers. The axe thing is a chef's kiss!

But the 4th film, oh dear. And it's a shame. I love Shane Black but I don't know what the hell happened and why. The ending being baffling and elements they added for the Predators make no sense. 

[Peypeypeypey]

I'm going to respond to this one more time, because I think the arguments are getting redundant. I just want to get my closing argument out. For the record, Po is not my character, so I'm not biased based on who is on my team.

1 hour ago, RakaiThwei said:

Except Predators never really submit. They either succeed or die in the hunt.

The Yautja are overly persistent in what they do. I mean think about like this...

Let's assume someone wanted me dead, and they wanted to make an attempt at my life. Now, I give out verbal warnings for them to stay back, they don't heed my warning. Then the attempt on my life is made, and I fight back with numerous strikes and holds, shoves and slams, and my attacker is still going for my life, and I even tell him to stop or even outright demand he stops... He's not stopping. This guy wants me DEAD. I've already tried talking, I've tried incapacitating, and he's made the attempt. He's not changed his mind about ending me. So I have to decide if it's him or me... and it's not going to be me. Let's say my attacker was ended... Did I change his mind in not trying to kill me? No, he made his mind up, he made the attack, he tried to see the attempt through. I, as the defender, FAILED in persuading and convincing him.

He hasn't been convinced of anything... Because he's DEAD.

The dead cannot be convinced. They're just that.

DEAD.

There are two massive things this argument leaves out. The most important is that you don't have to kill your attacker. Po is so much stronger than the Ghost Predator that it won't even be a challenge for him to incapacitate it without killing it. He can break its limbs by launching it into the clouds like he did with Tai Lung, or do targeted strikes to incapacitate it. That's not even factoring in things like his attack that can just knock you out instantly. Once that's done, the predator can't fight anymore. Po's goal is to end the hunt, and the hunt it over.

As I said in my previous comment, interpreting this challenge as "Po has to literally make the predator stop by words alone," then the hunter will literally never lose this category. No hunter in this category is going to be persuaded if they've set their mind to hunting someone. Interpreting it that way is just making it literally impossible for the animal to win. The definition of "convince" isn't "talk to," it's "persuade (someone) to do something." That persuasion can be through force, if need be. People are constantly persuaded to do things because of violence or the threat of it. 

The second important thing that the example leaves out is that predators do give up. They have a self detonator that they use when they are defeated. In the first movie, the predator gives up the hunt when its been defeated. There is no universe you can argue that a predator detonating a bomb that kills itself is not it giving up on the hunt. That is them giving up on the hunt in the most literal and hardcore way possible. There is no way to argue that if Po beats the predator up enough to use its wrist bomb, then the predator is still hunting Po.

No. The predator gives up on the hunt by using that bomb, and Po would decimate the predator until it used the bomb or was completely incapacitated and unable to continue this particular hunt. It doesn't matter if it recuperates and comes back later. We're arguing about this specific hunt, and in that case, the predator is unable to continue. 

1 hour ago, RakaiThwei said:

The Yautja are overly persistent in the hunt. Getting away from them is a temporary solution, and if you do get away... the learn how you escaped, and see to it that you don't get away from them. You could spend YEARS in getting away from a Yautja, and they'll find you sooner or later.

Just ask Wolverine... in fact that's the whole story about Predator vs Wolverine. Both the Yautja and Logan encountered each other in 1909, Logan had to make the escape because he didn't stand a chance in a straight up fight with a Young Blooded Yautja at the time as he had no Adamantium in his claws. In 1962.... the Predator found him again during his tenure with Team X, and Team X got decimated. Logan didn't even want to get into a fight with this one Predator and his clan, and focused on escaping. The Predator tracked him ALL THE WAY down to the Canadian border at Weapon X facility, found Logan AS his bones were getting laced with Adamantium, and after Logan escaped again.... the Predator found him AGAIN in Japan, as he was training with Muramasa... and now the Predator found Logan AGAIN in current times.

The first point is completely pointless in this context. If Po gets away and the predator has to recuperate to start the hunt again, then Po wins. Whether or not the hunter survives to hunt another day is immaterial. In the literal example you referenced earlier, Bugs doesn't kill Elmer Fudd. Fudd comes after Bugs later. If your criteria for the animal winning is that they have to permanently stop the hunter from hunting them forever, then that's just silly and not at all in line with the source material, the wording in the prompt, or the spirit of the fight. It's a linguistic word game to say that even if the hunt is obviously over, the other party may come back at a point in the future, so the hunted party hasn't won yet. Yet again, with this interpretation, there is no way for the hunted party to win.

The second point is even more pointless honestly. How persistent one predator was in a non-canon Wolverine crossover story means nothing to this argument. We're talking about this specific encounter between Po and a predator. Po would use his massive power advantage to incapacitate the predator, and then it would detonate itself, or it would be completely defeated and the hunt would end. Even if it gets up much later and pursues Po again, Po won this particular hunt in question. Again, Bugs Bunny was pursued by Elmer Fudd many times after convincing him the season wasn't Rabbit season. 

1 hour ago, RakaiThwei said:

Then this match would be moot. The Predator would have to notice that Po, despite the lovable cartoon oaf that he is, is his universe's Chosen One. Otherwise, the context of this match is moot.

The match wouldn't be moot, the predator would just lose. The entire point of the challenge is whether or not the predator will continue to hunt Po. You're basically saying that the predator is automatically going to be hunting Po because otherwise the predator would lose, but that's Magnamax's point. You are the one talking about the mentality of the predators, but you don't get to just do that when it benefits you. Predator's wouldn't hunt something that's bumbling and peaceful, so unless it sees Po do something violent and impressive at the outset, it would leave him alone. It's honestly the most likely scenario. 

The way I see it, the predator comes across Po apropos of nothing. Would it hunt him? The answer, almost certainly, is that it would see that he is an unarmed, clumsy oaf and ignore him, thus giving Po the win.

1 hour ago, RakaiThwei said:

If a Predator sees a challenge, it will make the attempt to overcome that challenge-- either through study and prep time, which doesn't really seem to be this particular Yautja's method of hunting which would perhaps better his chances in killing Po... or in this case, Ghost will try and either ambush Po with his cloaking and go for a quick kill (Predators do that. Hell, Ghost did it in the penthouse in Predator 2 when he was killing the Jamaicans. And Ghost even managed to kill Peter Keyes' OWL strike team which had prior knowledge of the Yautja from previous encounters, and even found a way to get around their heat insulated suits which hid their thermal signature).

 Until it gets defeated by that challenge and it blows itself up. They literally have a standard issue device specifically for when they are defeated in the hunt. If it uses that, it's over and it loses obviously.

Even if it does ambush Po, it wouldn't matter. Po can take hits from things so much stronger than the predator that it wouldn't be able to kill him faster than he can react, and then, again, Po would get it to use its detonator and lose.

1 hour ago, RakaiThwei said:

Also... the Predators have fought Superman.

Non-canonical, but my point stands...

Movie-Brat has that covered. Ghost Predator isn't going to listen.

Your chosen Yautja is not on my team but.... knowing what I know of the Yautja, knowledge being obsolete or relevant... still applies in his case.

Non-canonical, so your point does not stand at all. The Ghost Predator is canonically beaten by a regular human in a fight. A regular human who is far, far, far below what Po can do. Whether or not a non-canon version of Superman gets defeated by a non-canon version of the predator means literally nothing. It literally could not mean less, honestly. 

TL:DR

The only way the predator wins this is if you interpret this in the most literal way possible. The most likely scenario is that the predator doesn't hunt Po at all, hunts him and get incapacitated, or hunts him and blows himself up. In all three scenarios, Po wins.  

[Movie-Brat]

But Ghost Predator is canon however. What with Prey being the origin of that pistol from the second film.

[Macklemore]

9 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

As I said in my previous comment, interpreting this challenge as "Po has to literally make the predator stop by words alone," then the hunter will literally never lose this category.

I disagree with this assessment. We have a lot of characters who hunt would not continue with their hunt if they found the hunt beneath them, we have characters who hunt who would not continue with the hunt if they realized they won't be getting paid at the end of it (like if Deadshot was here and he was somehow convinced he would not get paid by the party that hired him, that would be enough for him to not hunt him) or a la Elmer Fudd being convinced that you're simply not in season. You just have to think outside the box to make your arguments.

[Peypeypeypey]

4 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

I disagree with this assessment. We have a lot of characters who hunt would not continue with their hunt if they found the hunt beneath them, we have characters who hunt who would not continue with the hunt if they realized they won't be getting paid at the end of it (like if Deadshot was here and he was somehow convinced he would not get paid by the party that hired him, that would be enough for him to not hunt him) or a la Elmer Fudd being convinced that you're simply not in season. You just have to think outside the box to make your arguments.

Fair enough. I have a follow up question for this specific scenario in that case:

The Ghost engages Po. Po, to demonstrate he is too powerful for it to hunt, defeats it in a fight. The Predator detonates its wrist bomb as an honorable suicide/destroying evidence/whatever the reason it does that.

Po has "convinced" the predator this is an unwinnable situation and it has conceded in the way Predators do. Would you consider that a win for Po?

[RakaiThwei]

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

There are two massive things this argument leaves out. The most important is that you don't have to kill your attacker. Po is so much stronger than the Ghost Predator that it won't even be a challenge for him to incapacitate it without killing it. He can break its limbs by launching it into the clouds like he did with Tai Lung, or do targeted strikes to incapacitate it. That's not even factoring in things like his attack that can just knock you out instantly. Once that's done, the predator can't fight anymore. Po's goal is to end the hunt, and the hunt it over.

I'm going by what the set up dictates. Furry Animal must convince Hunter that he is not on Hunting Season. It doesn't mention anything of a fight. The set up simply states that the furry animal has to convince the Hunter that he isn't legal to hunt.

Of course, Po would outclass a Yautja because of Toon Force and Kung-Fu magic because you know, different genres of films which the two are from.

Also, Po's a martial artist with a friendly demeanor. And as a former Martial Artist myself (I trained in Tang Soo Do over at Yi's Karate Institute for five years and almost reached black belt, this point is relevant here)-- the main objective in Martial Arts is to disengage from a fight escalating into physical contact. My Sah Bum Nim (Korean equivalent to Sensei or Sifu) emphasized on disengaging by either getting distance from an opponent, or talking things out. The LAST LINE of defensive is to use the training. Any school worth their legitimacy emphasize on the safety of their students and to ensure that the tools they are given are effective if they need be used.

So LOOKING AT THIS from a Martial Artist's standpoint, Po is going to try and disengage the Predator. The language barrier here a major factor here, and Po's going to try and make gestures but Ghost here isn't going to care much. He's going to make the attempt on Po's life. He's already made the decision.

Thus... the situation is escalated.

And even if Po does KO Ghost... the DECISION made by the ATTACKER is MADE. Po CANNOT change this past tense, unless he has time travel abilities that I do not know about.

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

As I said in my previous comment, interpreting this challenge as "Po has to literally make the predator stop by words alone," then the hunter will literally never lose this category. No hunter in this category is going to be persuaded if they've set their mind to hunting someone. Interpreting it that way is just making it literally impossible for the animal to win. The definition of "convince" isn't "talk to," it's "persuade (someone) to do something." That persuasion can be through force, if need be. People are constantly persuaded to do things because of violence or the threat of it.

Except there are many Hunters in this category who are capable of understanding Earthling based languages, even in Po's case, since he exist in a world where it's just Furry China. Po just drew an odd card here in that he's landed a match in a Hunter who doesn't understand human languages-- although there are Yautja who have learned human words and gestures, these are usually older Hunters who have picked up things up but may not necessarily understand the terminology.

The language barrier is a major, major factor here.

And a demonstration of force is something that will only further entice Ghost Predator. Yautja love challenges, to the point of being foolhardy about going to meet it at times but they certainly love challenges.

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

The second important thing that the example leaves out is that predators do give up. They have a self detonator that they use when they are defeated. In the first movie, the predator gives up the hunt when its been defeated. There is no universe you can argue that a predator detonating a bomb that kills itself is not it giving up on the hunt. That is them giving up on the hunt in the most literal and hardcore way possible. There is no way to argue that if Po beats the predator up enough to use its wrist bomb, then the predator is still hunting Po.

No. The predator gives up on the hunt by using that bomb, and Po would decimate the predator until it used the bomb or was completely incapacitated and unable to continue this particular hunt. It doesn't matter if it recuperates and comes back later. We're arguing about this specific hunt, and in that case, the predator is unable to continue.

No. In the context of the Hunt, the Yautja are relentlessly persistent. Perhaps too persistent for their own good. They are born to be Hunters and Warriors, and they are taught from the moment they start their training that their culture and way of life can lead to death. They have no fear of death, and even worship a death deity in the Hunt they refer to as Cetanu (this is old Dark Horse canon by the way-- so it may no longer be relevent in current Disney-Marvel canon) and it's encouraged by the Yautja to meet death with a grin and laugh to unnerve the Black Warrior (their version of the Grim Reaper).

And there is a universe where I can argue that a Predator is detonating that wrist-bomb is seen as not giving up. The Alien-Predator universe. They already know going into the hunt that they are going to die, they have no fear of death considering what they do. They've already been resigned their lives to a culture where death is a prevalent thing. The reason why the Predators are forced to use their self-destruct sequence is to ensure that their technology doesn't get into the hands of their prey and is also seen as taking their prey with them. Consider it as their way of saying a last "Hah hah hah! Eff' You!" to their Prey.

I would say the Yautja can be petty enough to do that. They're definitely the kind of assholes to do that.

And I love the Yautja, but fuck they're assholes when they want to be.

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

The first point is completely pointless in this context. If Po gets away and the predator has to recuperate to start the hunt again, then Po wins. Whether or not the hunter survives to hunt another day is immaterial. In the literal example you referenced earlier, Bugs doesn't kill Elmer Fudd. Fudd comes after Bugs later. If your criteria for the animal winning is that they have to permanently stop the hunter from hunting them forever, then that's just silly and not at all in line with the source material, the wording in the prompt, or the spirit of the fight. It's a linguistic word game to say that even if the hunt is obviously over, the other party may come back at a point in the future, so the hunted party hasn't won yet. Yet again, with this interpretation, there is no way for the hunted party to win.

Except a few people have brought up that even if the Predator does initiate things, and Po does get away... the Hunt is already started. Hunting also involves chasing and tracking-- and Predators are very good at that. It's not just about the fight, that's just one aspect of the Hunt-- you also have to consider tracking and pursuit.

As for the criteria of the furry animal winning by permantly stopping the Hunter from hunting them forever... Unfortunately for Po, engaging and killing the Predator is the ONLY way to do that. Especially for this particular Predator.

Had Po gone up against say... a Terminator, it would be the SAME THING here... If Po had gone up against Kraven the Hunter, and I damn well know someone did pick him, it would be the SAME THING... Had Po gone up against Elmer Fudd, you'd have a different story. Had Po gone up against Lord Chumley from G1 Transformers, Chumley would be persistent in trying to get Po, as he was with Optimus Prime albeit he would be able to ward off and convince Chumley.

But guys like Ghost Predator, a Terminator, or even Kraven the Hunter? No, they won't stop until they get what they want... or die trying.

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

The second point is even more pointless honestly. How persistent one predator was in a non-canon Wolverine crossover story means nothing to this argument. We're talking about this specific encounter between Po and a predator. Po would use his massive power advantage to incapacitate the predator, and then it would detonate itself, or it would be completely defeated and the hunt would end. Even if it gets up much later and pursues Po again, Po won this particular hunt in question. Again, Bugs Bunny was pursued by Elmer Fudd many times after convincing him the season wasn't Rabbit season.

Except the point does still stand, because it's still within character of a Predator to be as persistent and stubborn as they've been shown to across all Alien-Predator media, regardless if it's Dark Horse canon or Disney-Marvel canon.

But if you want another example, perhaps one that's canonical (or at least formerly canonical) ... Let's look at Ahab Predator. This guy...

https://www.magneticferret.com/cbub/cbubcats/show?cid=12558

Ahab Predator was an Elder veteran Yautja who relentlessly hunted after the Engineers in the Alien/Predator/Prometheus storyline, Fire and Stone that was published in 2013. Ahab was hunting a primitive four armed alien-species when he had come across a mural which depicted the Engineers.... And when seeing this mural, he made it his life's mission to go after one of the most elusive and perhaps... rarest type of prey that any Yautja could ever hunt. He tracked after this prey, going from planet to planet, finding any evidence or trace that the Engineers had something to do with the development of other alien races, and he did this... for OVER TWO HUNDRED YEARS. He did not stop, he ultimately found his prey...

And Ahab was a VERY OLD Yautja, one far past his prime. And he fought an Engineer in direct combat, despite being completely outmatched and suffering a broken arm, a broken leg, Ahab was determined to take his trophy or take it with him. He found his white whale, his obsession and was willing to die with it. But he was saved by Galgo, his human ally who he used to help him find said Engineer.

The Predators are persistent... and absurdly, perhaps stupidly so.

And if Ghost can't kill Po, he'll try and take him with him.

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

The match wouldn't be moot, the predator would just lose. The entire point of the challenge is whether or not the predator will continue to hunt Po. You're basically saying that the predator is automatically going to be hunting Po because otherwise the predator would lose, but that's Magnamax's point. You are the one talking about the mentality of the predators, but you don't get to just do that when it benefits you. Predator's wouldn't hunt something that's bumbling and peaceful, so unless it sees Po do something violent and impressive at the outset, it would leave him alone. It's honestly the most likely scenario.

Except if Po doesn't draw attention to himself, the Predator won't exactly have to go after Po and Po doesn't need to attempt to convince an alien hunter, who has a language barrier going on... to try and convince the Predator that he's not on the hunting season list. Thus, the encounter doesn't happen and the match IS moot.

For a Predator to attempt to hunt Po, the Panda has to present himself as a challenge-- whether intentional or not, and if the latter, well... that's blamed by some outside force, be it bandits, brigands or thugs that are making trouble in China, and if the Predator does see Po using his skills... then the Predator is going to make note of it.

Otherwise, if things are peaceful in Furry China... and no one is causing trouble for Po to handle, then the Predator has no reason to hunt in Furry China, and the match is moot.

A prey has to make themselves known as a potential threat to be taken notice by a Yautja.

Otherwise, the Yautja would be hunting for food, and when hunting for food they take only the weaker, more docile prey to eat. At least, that was mentioned in the once canonical AVP novels by the Perry's.

Not sure how Predators are in the current canonical Titan published books.

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Non-canonical, so your point does not stand at all. The Ghost Predator is canonically beaten by a regular human in a fight. A regular human who is far, far, far below what Po can do. Whether or not a non-canon version of Superman gets defeated by a non-canon version of the predator means literally nothing. It literally could not mean less, honestly.

It doesn't matter. Predators are willing to fight creatures and beings which are stronger than themselves. They relish the challenge.

Ahab Predator fighting an Engineer is a good example of that, and Ahab was an older hunter far past his prime and well on the path of declining strength and physicality.

And hell, there's even a canonical case of a Predator fighting and killing a superhuman enemy named Law, the titular character from Dark Horse's short lived Agents of Law comic. I'm talking about this guy!

https://www.magneticferret.com/cbub/cbubcats/show?cid=12502

[SSJRuss]

Great debate. Truly one worthy of recognition in the CBUB archives.

Voting Po, but man, learning Rakai doesn't like Prey is insane. Great movie imo

[RakaiThwei]

3 minutes ago, SSJRuss said:

Great debate. Truly one worthy of recognition in the CBUB archives.

Voting Po, but man, learning Rakai doesn't like Prey is insane. Great movie imo

I didn't like ANY of the last three Predator movies.

I just felt like they should've done AVP3 instead. They had an interesting script, one which was set in Africa in the year 2030, and we would've had a bunch of hybrid Xenomorphs birthed from African wildlife and two Predators hunting them.

[Culwych1]

44 minutes ago, RakaiThwei said:

I didn't like ANY of the last three Predator movies.

I just felt like they should've done AVP3 instead. They had an interesting script, one which was set in Africa in the year 2030, and we would've had a bunch of hybrid Xenomorphs birthed from African wildlife and two Predators hunting them.

I'm with SSJRuss on this, am surprised you disliked Prey (although am definitely not a huge fan like yourself so will bow to your superior knowledge (about Preds, not about the winner of this match 😉)) - I thought it was a descent homage to the older films which got people into the Pred in the first place. Made me look forward to the next one, potentially being set during WW2, which would be insane! 

AVP3 idea sounds brilliant. 

[RakaiThwei]

7 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I'm with SSJRuss on this, am surprised you disliked Prey (although am definitely not a huge fan like yourself so will bow to your superior knowledge (about Preds, not about the winner of this match 😉)) - I thought it was a descent homage to the older films which got people into the Pred in the first place. Made me look forward to the next one, potentially being set during WW2, which would be insane! 

I have heard news about the sequel which is said to be set during WW2 but I don't know if that's even true at all. There are many sites out there that report a lot of false information, and that was the case with Prey before even so much as details of that movie were being released from 2018 to 2020.

If I hear anything about the sequel, it's going to be from the top AVP fan communities hubs out there.

But... a lot of people wanted a Predator movie set in Feudal era Japan. I would've liked that as the third Predator movie, instead of PREDATORS.

But... as for my knowledge, well... it's obsolete unless matches involving Dark Horse canon Predators or Pre-Disney era characters are being used. Most of what I know is no longer valid in the broader sense primarily because of the Disney purchase of Alien-Predator, and they did to the franchise what they did to Star Wars... although in Alien-Predator's case, it was done more quietly and we don't exactly get a "Legends" continuity like Star Wars does.

Also, the AVP franchise (which from a licensing standpoint is separate from Predator and Alien) seems to have been swept under the rug. I guess the reaction to the AVP movies made the Disney suits see the AVP franchise as poison, enough so that they cancelled and vaulted the COMPLETED Alien vs Predator anime that Netflix did.

[Movie-Brat]

37 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I'm with SSJRuss on this, am surprised you disliked Prey (although am definitely not a huge fan like yourself so will bow to your superior knowledge (about Preds, not about the winner of this match 😉)) - I thought it was a descent homage to the older films which got people into the Pred in the first place. Made me look forward to the next one, potentially being set during WW2, which would be insane! 

AVP3 idea sounds brilliant. 

I was surprised myself. I would have thought he'd like Prey. 

[Movie-Brat]

31 minutes ago, RakaiThwei said:

I have heard news about the sequel which is said to be set during WW2 but I don't know if that's even true at all. There are many sites out there that report a lot of false information, and that was the case with Prey before even so much as details of that movie were being released from 2018 to 2020.

If I hear anything about the sequel, it's going to be from the top AVP fan communities hubs out there.

But... a lot of people wanted a Predator movie set in Feudal era Japan. I would've liked that as the third Predator movie, instead of PREDATORS.

But... as for my knowledge, well... it's obsolete unless matches involving Dark Horse canon Predators or Pre-Disney era characters are being used. Most of what I know is no longer valid in the broader sense primarily because of the Disney purchase of Alien-Predator, and they did to the franchise what they did to Star Wars... although in Alien-Predator's case, it was done more quietly and we don't exactly get a "Legends" continuity like Star Wars does.

Also, the AVP franchise (which from a licensing standpoint is separate from Predator and Alien) seems to have been swept under the rug. I guess the reaction to the AVP movies made the Disney suits see the AVP franchise as poison, enough so that they cancelled and vaulted the COMPLETED Alien vs Predator anime that Netflix did.

Technically it was Hulu but it does suck it got vaulted.

[RakaiThwei]

10 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

I was surprised myself. I would have thought he'd like Prey. 

I'm... I want to say protective about Predator but it's not my franchise to be protective about. I don't own it. I wish I did but I don't. I suppose... I'm rather particular about how I felt the franchise should've went instead of where it's currently gone and I most certainly, did not like the direction Dan Trachtenberg took with Prey.

My biggest problem with Prey was Feral Predator himself.

11 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

Technically it was Hulu but it does suck it got vaulted.

No, I'm pretty sure that it was Netflix.

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/2020/02/29/20th-century-fox-netflix-reportedly-made-an-alien-vs-predator-anime-and-they-had-interest-in-more-animated-material/

And it was even called AVP: Annihilation. Shinji Aramaki even released a screenshot from the completed anime.

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/tv/avp-annihilation/

[Movie-Brat]

2 minutes ago, RakaiThwei said:

I'm... I want to say protective about Predator but it's not my franchise to be protective about. I don't own it. I wish I did but I don't. I suppose... I'm rather particular about how I felt the franchise should've went instead of where it's currently gone and I most certainly, did not like the direction Dan Trachtenberg took with Prey.

My biggest problem with Prey was Feral Predator himself.

No, I'm pretty sure that it was Netflix.

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/2020/02/29/20th-century-fox-netflix-reportedly-made-an-alien-vs-predator-anime-and-they-had-interest-in-more-animated-material/

And it was even called AVP: Annihilation. Shinji Aramaki even released a screenshot from the completed anime.

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/tv/avp-annihilation/

Huh. I could have sworn it was Hulu.

But Prey, I mean to be fair, subspecies or not, it was supposed to be the first time Predators got on Earth and I thought it was neat dude had early weaponry and made some knarly kills. 

Plus, Naru I found cool and after how much Fox botched the fourth film, it was nice to have something back to basics. But hey, we can agree to disagree. 

[RakaiThwei]

1 minute ago, Movie-Brat said:

But Prey, I mean to be fair, subspecies or not, it was supposed to be the first time Predators got on Earth and I thought it was neat dude had early weaponry and made some knarly kills.

Trachtenberg did say on Twitter/X that this was not the first time Predators have been to Earth. It was Feral's first time, not the Yautja as a whole.

Marketing just ran with the tagline of it being the first hunt on Earth when it was really not.

2 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

Plus, Naru I found cool and after how much Fox botched the fourth film, it was nice to have something back to basics. But hey, we can agree to disagree. 

[Cringe]

Naru... was also someone who I kind of had an issue with in the movie. I mean she was fighting like she was MCU Black Widow and... the pacing, the narrative of the movie... I just absolutely didn't like.

I felt like we had better female protagonist who just didn't get insta-good, but none the less held their own as characters in Predator films such as Anna Gonsalves, Leona Cantrell, Alexa Woods, Kelly O'Brien and... as much as I HATED Predators, even Isabelle Nissenbaum seemed to have better character than Naru.

[Movie-Brat]

10 minutes ago, RakaiThwei said:

Trachtenberg did say on Twitter/X that this was not the first time Predators have been to Earth. It was Feral's first time, not the Yautja as a whole.

Marketing just ran with the tagline of it being the first hunt on Earth when it was really not.

[Cringe]

Naru... was also someone who I kind of had an issue with in the movie. I mean she was fighting like she was MCU Black Widow and... the pacing, the narrative of the movie... I just absolutely didn't like.

I felt like we had better female protagonist who just didn't get insta-good, but none the less held their own as characters in Predator films such as Anna Gonsalves, Leona Cantrell, Alexa Woods, Kelly O'Brien and... as much as I HATED Predators, even Isabelle Nissenbaum seemed to have better character than Naru.

Gotta disagree because she wasn't pulling similar maneuvers. It's just her thinking like a hunter. And it's not like she was an instant expert. She just knew the hunting translates.

[RakaiThwei]

1 minute ago, Movie-Brat said:

Gotta disagree because she wasn't pulling similar maneuvers. It's just her thinking like a hunter. And it's not like she was an instant expert. She just knew the hunting translates.

Agree to disagree.

But... why is everyone so surprised that I didn't like Prey? I mean everyone knows that I didn't like PREDATORS, and it's no surprise that I certainly don't like 2018's The Predator, and I didn't even see the movie. I made the decision not to see the 2018 movie after the script leaks got out, the set photos got out, and the alternate cut of the film and alternate endings were leaked. 2018's movie was a catastrophically disaster which should've killed the franchise. So that's no surprise that I wouldn't favor that film.

But Prey? I mean... was I SUPPOSED to like it from everyone's expectations of me being a Predator fan? I mean despite my vouching for the Yautja in this match, and me having recruited one on my team... I'm not as invested or much of a fan for Predator since Disney purchased the franchise.

My new main thing is TMNT... Except Mutant Mayhem.

Fuck that movie.

[C.T.]

I mean yeah it’s surprising, because Prey is easily the best Predator movie since the original, and tbh it’s even better than that one for me.

[RakaiThwei]

1 minute ago, C.T. said:

I mean yeah it’s surprising, because Prey is easily the best Predator movie since the original, and tbh it’s even better than that one for me.

I find it baffling that a lot of people say that it's the best since the original, although I would say that's just recency bias. Even in the Predator fandom, that claim is disputed since a lot of people still vouch that the original movie is still the best, or that Predator 2 is a more worthy film of the original.

If people like the movie, fine-- more power to them...

But after my viewing of Prey, I didn't like it... I felt like there was so many things they could've done differently. Feral was a terrible concept and design, and I felt like the reason why he had to be made that way was because of the Disney/Thomas Brothers lawsuit which was going on. Hell, even Disney wasn't sure if Prey was going to be a Predator movie because the rights to Predator were supposed to revert back to the Thomas Brothers. That's why the movie was called Prey, because they wanted to play it safe by not calling it Predator.

Also, Feral's design initially wasn't even originally a  Predator in the concept, but Dan Trachtenberg told the concept artists to dial it back to where it looked something like a Predator.

To me... Feral is the biggest weakness for Prey for me. He just looks like an angry peanut or a potato.

And then there was the retconning of the flintlock and Raphael Adolini. I really felt like that was a piece of lore which shouldn't have been touched. But they did it anyway... and before anyone says it, I totally get it.. Most filmmakers don't even look at the expanded universe to be beholden to it. Not even Star Wars, prior to the Disney purchase, was beholden to it's own EU. Star Trek certainly isn't... and neither is Alien-Predator.

But Fox had a Predator Bible, and the original story of the flintlock, Predator: 1718 by Dark Horse, likely was recorded and entered in that canon bible. But Trachtenberg said that no one gave him a Predator bible (I assume that it was because of the Disney/Thomas lawsuit and the acquisition of the franchise by Disney), and he wasn't even aware of the comic until someone brought it up to him after the movie released.

Then again, Fox never really cared too much about what anyone did with the franchise license. Hell, even the developers who made AVP: Extinction made a Xenomorph's tail stand up like a phallus when developing the game, left in there all the way til late development, and when Fox looked at it, they didn't bring it up or seem to care too much.

I think that's my problem with Alien-Predator... I cared too much, and got too invested in it. Spent years amassing knowledge, debating with Marvel and DC fans who just wanna see Predators job or just don't like what they can really do. I feel like I wasted a lot of time.

Not gonna lie, I'm bitter about it.

[Movie-Brat]

I mean, I'm surprised because it seemed so you like something you wanted. Like delving into the Predator mythos in the past. Plus, certain people who worked on the original praised the film, so, yeah.

But behind the scenes stuff, as far as I know, Prey was in the works while the Shane Black was going on, just under a different title and was going to be a surprise until the trailer confirmed it. 

And honestly, I'm glad Prey survived the Fox buyout given notoriously, buyouts can cancel projects. 

Continuity, in fairness, whether he didn't know or not, it was nice getting an answer about that pistol and I bought the explanation. 

[RakaiThwei]

3 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

I mean, I'm surprised because it seemed so you like something you wanted. Like delving into the Predator mythos in the past. Plus, certain people who worked on the original praised the film, so, yeah.

After the 2018 movie, I said to myself that I DIDN'T want another Predator, and if it had to be another movie... I would've preferred a hard reboot.

4 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

But behind the scenes stuff, as far as I know, Prey was in the works while the Shane Black was going on, just under a different title and was going to be a surprise until the trailer confirmed it.

Yes and no.

Yes in that Prey was written around the time that Shane Black was doing his movie. No, in that it was written to be a Predator movie, it was titled as "Skulls" and the creature in the film was an ambiguous creature that could've been anything. Later on, it was retooled to become a Predator like creature, until the production moved to filming did it become Feral.

6 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

And honestly, I'm glad Prey survived the Fox buyout given notoriously, buyouts can cancel projects.

Like the Shinji Aramaki AVP anime... I would've liked to see that.

Would've preferred that more than Prey.

8 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

Continuity, in fairness, whether he didn't know or not, it was nice getting an answer about that pistol and I bought the explanation. 

I didn't like the retcon of the flintlock pistol. Originally, in the comic Predator: 1718, Raphael Adolini was a heroic Pirate captain who found out that his crew stole from a church's treasury and he demanded that his crew return it back to the church. His crew formed a mutiny and he fought valiantly against his crew. Then Greyback Predator (the Elder in Predator 2) saw what was happening, saw Adolini as worthy prey and decided to assist him in fighting his crew. Adolini and Greyback successfully defeated the mutiny, and then proceeded to face each other...

Until Adolini was shot in the back by a dying pirate. Greyback proceeds to kill the pirate, and Adolini, in his dying breath gave the pistol to Greyback Predator, and Greyback gave Adolini his katana.

....

Then Prey happened... And Adolini turned out to be a cowardly fur-trapper.

See why I didn't like that retcon?

[Movie-Brat]

To be fair, I think that comic is hard to find and not everybody read it. But even if it was a retcon, I think I prefer the film. Plus it felt pretty satisfying seeing Feral '86 him.

Hell, the Predator killing colonizers, I'm down for it. That entire scene still provided knarly kills like the axe, the shield and the net. I got into it easily. 

[Twogunkid]

I've literally only seen the original predator. I'm stunned at how much EU lore there is.

[RakaiThwei]

13 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

I've literally only seen the original predator. I'm stunned at how much EU lore there is.

The movies are considered the main canon but then again.... canon even in the films is fluid. There's nothing concrete. You could watch them as either Predator, Predator 2, AVP, AVP-R, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3.... That's the first timeline to watch the movies.

Or you could watch them as Prey, Predator, Predator 2, PREDATORS and The Predator.

As far as the EU goes... well... it kind of got the Star Wars treatment when Disney acquired the franchise. So it's a safe bet all of the stuff such as the characters, stories, maybe some feats from Dark Horse, games from the 90s to 2010, books... All of that might have been put on the chopping block and likely may no longer be canon, save for some concepts here and there.

The current EU material from Disney-Marvel is the current EU canon.

[Twogunkid]

Alright, I can add Alien and Aliens to my predator canon knowledge.