12:5 - Amazons vs. The 300 Spartans

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 5

Amazons

Slot: The Team's Cannon Fodder
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Amazons at this Wiki
Official Site: Public Domain

The 300 Spartans

Slot: The Team's Cannon Fodder
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about The 300 Spartans at this Wiki
Official Site: Warner Bros

Battle Terrain
Cannon Fodder Challenge: Medieval Reenactment

[Peypeypeypey]

It's important to note that the link clearly links to the mythological Amazons, not, say, the Amazons from DC. With that in mind, the mythological amazons are very good warriors and physically equal to most men, but I think the Spartans should get the edge overall in this category for a simple reason: They are literally perfect for this category. They are born and raised to be warriors, and each and every one of them has a lifetime of experience fighting, training, and learning strategies for fighting. Amazons undoubtedly trained a lot and were very good warriors too, but Spartans were the elite Greek fighting force, and did almost nothing other than fight. They are also better equipped for this combat, with their hoplon shields and spears. They train all day to form ranks and become and unbreakable wall, and the mythical Amazon, being equals to men, have worse weaponry and training, and wouldn't be able to outlast the Spartan's elite training

[Culwych1]

Gonna leave this one to the picks owner to defend, but there are iterations of the amazons living in medieval times, long after Sparta had ceased to be, which could see them through this slot.

Definitely no clear winner for this slot.

[Fox]

This is a super interesting match between two well known ancient Greek teams.  Right now it is toss-up for me, but just reading about the history is neat.

[patrickthekid]

Oh this is amazing pairing.

While the Spartans are well trained and the Amazons are not up to Wonder Woman's strength, they tend to at least be above normal human abilities. You can see the likes of Velasca, Ephiny and Varia to see what the best Amazons are capable of.

[Peypeypeypey]

1 hour ago, patrickthekid said:

Oh this is amazing pairing.

While the Spartans are well trained and the Amazons are not up to Wonder Woman's strength, they tend to at least be above normal human abilities. You can see the likes of Velasca, Ephiny and Varia to see what the best Amazons are capable of.

First of all, if they're named, then they weren't really Canon fodder. More importantly though, in the myths the Amazons are just depicted as being physically on par with strong warriors. The Spartans are depicted as about as "above average human" as the Amazons, and they have better training, better equipment, and better knowledge of battle

[RiotGear]

This is a medieval reenactment not a straight up fight.

The Spartans we're dead a thousand years before the medieval period.

The Amazons other hand hung on into the medieval period.

Sir John Mandeville mentions the in his Travels. Written in the 1300s.

So yeah I'd side with the group that has experience with the period in question.

Even if this is just a battle where both sides are given medieval equipment. There existence in the era means the Amazons are going to have better understanding of how to use it.

[Mercenaryblade]

Given this is the movie version 300 they don't know what armor is and how to move in it given they wore non accurate leather diapers to battle. 

Amazons I think could beat the phalanx the spartans would try if they used the same tactics as the Romans, Rome defeated Greece by outmaneuvering phalanxes. Tossing javelins into the front and getting swordsmen into those gaps can really mess up your formation. 

 

[Peypeypeypey]

4 hours ago, RiotGear said:

This is a medieval reenactment not a straight up fight.

The Spartans we're dead a thousand years before the medieval period.

The Amazons other hand hung on into the medieval period.

Sir John Mandeville mentions the in his Travels. Written in the 1300s.

So yeah I'd side with the group that has experience with the period in question.

Even if this is just a battle where both sides are given medieval equipment. There existence in the era means the Amazons are going to have better understanding of how to use it.

It's not like the medieval equipment would be so advanced that the Spartans wouldn't understand it. It's a reenactment, so it's not like their using advanced siege weapons that need a lot of understanding. It'll just be infantry equipment. Again, while the Amazons are described as good warriors, the Spartans are warrior/philosophers who live, eat, and breathe war. They understand battle better, and just because the Amazons outlived them in myth doesn't mean they evolved past them really. Again, they're not renowned for their strategies or their ability to fight as a unit

3 hours ago, Mercenaryblade said:

Given this is the movie version 300 they don't know what armor is and how to move in it given they wore non accurate leather diapers to battle. 

Amazons I think could beat the phalanx the spartans would try if they used the same tactics as the Romans, Rome defeated Greece by outmaneuvering phalanxes. Tossing javelins into the front and getting swordsmen into those gaps can really mess up your formation. 

It wasn't necessarily meant to be the movie version, but if it is, then those guys are pretty much superhumanly strong and skilled. That might actually improve their tactics. Again, the Amazons might be able to break a formation, but we really don't have any evidence that they would know how, or even be able to do so effectively, even if they did know. The Spartans are far better trained and understand war better than almost anyone in their day, and the Amazons simply don't have that reputation

[RiotGear]

7 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

It's not like the medieval equipment would be so advanced that the Spartans wouldn't understand it. It's a reenactment, so it's not like their using advanced siege weapons that need a lot of understanding. It'll just be infantry equipment. Again, while the Amazons are described as good warriors, the Spartans are warrior/philosophers who live, eat, and breathe war. They understand battle better, and just because the Amazons outlived them in myth doesn't mean they evolved past them really. Again, they're not renowned for their strategies or their ability to fight as a unit

Spartans may be able to figure out medieval equipment. Though I'd wager things like armor of the era, long bows, etc. Would take a bit.

Think of it this way. Yes an army from WW1 could probably sort out how to use modern equipment, but would they use it as well as a modern army?

Amazons we're described as unmatched with javelins, bows, and horses.

That battled every major power of the ancient world and continued to do so into the Roman era.

At one point it is believed they controlled most of Asia.

Didn't evolve past them? Are you suggesting that the Amazons existed as a Sovereign power in the 1300s, while using weapons and tactics, from ancient Greece?

Cause given the advances in weapons and metallurgy alone. Doing that would make the Amazons bad asses of the highest order.

And they'd still be more familiar with medieval equipment, because they existed along side it.

While Amazons are known for there prowess in single combat.

You don't conduct military actions against every major power of the era. From Egypt, Persia, to India etc with out tactical and strategic acumen.

We are talking about a people that not only invaded and occupied Athens, but again at one point are reputed to have held most of Asia.

[Peypeypeypey]

5 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Spartans may be able to figure out medieval equipment. Though I'd wager things like armor of the era, long bows, etc. Would take a bit.

Think of it this way. Yes an army from WW1 could probably sort out how to use modern equipment, but would they use it as well as a modern army?

Amazons we're described as unmatched with javelins, bows, and horses.

That battled every major power of the ancient world and continued to do so into the Roman era.

At one point it is believed they controlled most of Asia.

Didn't evolve past them? Are you suggesting that the Amazons existed as a Sovereign power in the 1300s, while using weapons and tactics, from ancient Greece?

Cause given the advances in weapons and metallurgy alone. Doing that would make the Amazons bad asses of the highest order.

And they'd still be more familiar with medieval equipment, because they existed along side it.

While Amazons are known for there prowess in single combat.

You don't conduct military actions against every major power of the era. From Egypt, Persia, to India etc with out tactical and strategic acumen.

We are talking about a people that not only invaded and occupied Athens, but again at one point are reputed to have held most of Asia.

The key word is believed in the "they controlled Asia" point. That wasn't even really a part of any particular myth, it was just a random throwaway line by someone speculating on what they might do, or rather how strong they might have been in the past. As far as I can tell, there is no real story/myth where they ruled Asia, so giving that to them is completely ridiculous.

Second point, the WWI comparison is silly too. This is a Reenactment. The Amazons obviously don't get horses, and they might not even get bows. The Spartans were also very well trained with javelins, and the hoplite armor isn't very different from armor that Amazons wore. And again, is there a specific story about Amazons wearing heavy armor into battle? I haven't heard it, if so. You're really not arguing what the real stories of Amazons say with this point, but rather what possible combat acumen the Amazons might have, based on geography and time. I'm arguing, based on the stories they're actually in, the Spartans are just as well equipped, better trained, and were bred warrior above the level of the Amazons. 

I'm also arguing that the way reenactments work, the Amazon's experience is actually going to work against them, not for them. I've never seen a reenactment where they allow horseback riders, or archers, which is what medieval soldiers spent a lot of time training for. The phalanx was limited in many ways, and the Roman 

Also, yes, I am arguing that the Amazons wouldn't have evolved much past the Spartans, because you're really picking and choosing what counts as "Amazon" when making the case for them existing so late. Almost all versions of the Amazons existed in Greece, and almost every story that existed after that detailing the Amazons that I can find is either an overt retelling, is an updated version, or is simply telling a similar story to that of the Amazons, without actually being about the Amazons themselves, like "Orlando furioso." There are vague tales and mentions of them here and there after the Greek stories, but not really about the Amazons as we know them. It would be equally disingenuous for me to say "some Greece scholars believed the Amazons were just men with shaved beards, so the Amazons are just regular dudes who get bodied." Going by the vast majority of the bulk of the stories, Amazons will not really be much more advanced that Spartans.

This is the last point I'll make on this. The Spartans were renowned tacticians, trained their entire lives to be warriors, and are virtually unbeatable at this particular contest because the Amazons lack the horses and most likely the bows they're more familiar with. "Amazons" is an incredibly vague group, but any individual version of them other than the ones in DC are above average warriors, and while they were very impressive on the battlefield, the Spartans were the elite warriors who excelled at this exact type of combat, understand the battle better than any version of the Amazons anyone has definitively been able to find (not just "they lived long, so they must be smart"), and fight better as a cohesive unit. The Spartans should win a hard-fought battle 

 

[RiotGear]

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

The key word is believed in the "they controlled Asia" point. That wasn't even really a part of any particular myth, it was just a random throwaway line by someone speculating on what they might do, or rather how strong they might have been in the past. As far as I can tell, there is no real story/myth where they ruled Asia, so giving that to them is completely ridiculous.

Second point, the WWI comparison is silly too. This is a Reenactment. The Amazons obviously don't get horses, and they might not even get bows. The Spartans were also very well trained with javelins, and the hoplite armor isn't very different from armor that Amazons wore. And again, is there a specific story about Amazons wearing heavy armor into battle? I haven't heard it, if so. You're really not arguing what the real stories of Amazons say with this point, but rather what possible combat acumen the Amazons might have, based on geography and time. I'm arguing, based on the stories they're actually in, the Spartans are just as well equipped, better trained, and were bred warrior above the level of the Amazons. 

I'm also arguing that the way reenactments work, the Amazon's experience is actually going to work against them, not for them. I've never seen a reenactment where they allow horseback riders, or archers, which is what medieval soldiers spent a lot of time training for. The phalanx was limited in many ways, and the Roman 

Also, yes, I am arguing that the Amazons wouldn't have evolved much past the Spartans, because you're really picking and choosing what counts as "Amazon" when making the case for them existing so late. Almost all versions of the Amazons existed in Greece, and almost every story that existed after that detailing the Amazons that I can find is either an overt retelling, is an updated version, or is simply telling a similar story to that of the Amazons, without actually being about the Amazons themselves, like "Orlando furioso." There are vague tales and mentions of them here and there after the Greek stories, but not really about the Amazons as we know them. It would be equally disingenuous for me to say "some Greece scholars believed the Amazons were just men with shaved beards, so the Amazons are just regular dudes who get bodied." Going by the vast majority of the bulk of the stories, Amazons will not really be much more advanced that Spartans.

This is the last point I'll make on this. The Spartans were renowned tacticians, trained their entire lives to be warriors, and are virtually unbeatable at this particular contest because the Amazons lack the horses and most likely the bows they're more familiar with. "Amazons" is an incredibly vague group, but any individual version of them other than the ones in DC are above average warriors, and while they were very impressive on the battlefield, the Spartans were the elite warriors who excelled at this exact type of combat, understand the battle better than any version of the Amazons anyone has definitively been able to find (not just "they lived long, so they must be smart"), and fight better as a cohesive unit. The Spartans should win a hard-fought battle 

 

Mandeville explicitly mentions them in his Travel Log. Noting that they have resisted male rule. As in they have continued to be self governed.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Mandeville+amazons&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&prmd=imnxv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi46_KNxLD0AhWTGjQIHXfRDMgQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=780&dpr=1.75#imgrc=Kid7pPfhNIGT4M

Regardless of how you feel about it, this is part of the over all Amazon myth and is even mentioned in the wiki article. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons

Under the header about Late Antiquity, middle ages, and Renaissance literature. 

For someone accusing me of picking and choosing. You are being far more nitpicky then me. 

I am trying to look at the entirety of the Myth surrounding the Amazons. 

You are complaining about myths not being true. Which by default they are not. 

In other words your whole " no no no this is the real truey, true story, of the Amazons." Thing Kinda silly. 

You don't think modern soldiers with modern equipment and knowledge, could do a better reenactment of a modern battle, then WW1 soldiers placed in the same scenario? 

And you'd be wrong about reenactments too. 

correct me if I'm wrong, but that looks like mounted knights, archers, crossbow men etc. 

this is a much smaller group and they have freaking trebuchet. 

Couple more notes.

The Amazons being shaved men would not in any way effect the out come of the battle.

Male or female there military exploits speak for themselves. 

Also it's worth noting that, that account conflicts with most accounts.

Which Amazons being an extant state in the Middle Ages does not. 

Wrapping up. Spartans didn't use bows or mounted cavalry ( at the time of Thermopylae )which is the back bone of most medieval warfare. 

Guess who did, that's right Amazons and they did so even before the middle ages. 

So once again. You've got one group whose kit is closer to that of the middle ages and who may well have existed in the middle ages vs a group that has neither of those advantages. 

As for skill, tactics, strategy. Bother these groups were renowned for weapons skill, personal combat prowess, and ability to wage war. 

So yeah the group with more experience, with the kind of warfare in question, in this case the Amazons, are going to come out on top.

 

 

 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Amazons: 7
The 300 Spartans: 5

[Culwych1]

My fav match up of the season so far. Well defended all!

[DSkillz]

Huh, pat finally wins one.