Modern Earth Military VS Galactic Empire

[Guest force_echo]

They do have some submarine and ocean ships now that I remember (the AT-AT swimmer and some submarines). The PGBs also come in naval versions, but that depends on how Skirmisher wants us to treat NA. Did the GE land purely on North American land, or in the area and thus the seas nearby?

If the GE outnumbered the rebellion by trillions of soldiers, and the Rebellion still won major victories against the GE, they only started as a "mere annoyance", in the full swing of the GCW the emperor was dedicated in crushing the Rebellion.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

The arrow wasn't shown to actually penetrate the armor, especially considering that Scout trooper armor has a pack. The trooper lets out a yelp before doubling over. But since the arrow isn't shown to dig in, past the pack, it's doubtful it actually penetrated the armor and actually hit the soldier inside.

 

The black body glove, on the other hand, can be pierced by arrows. Again, if the arrows can crack the armor so easily, you'd think he'd be able to show more instances of this, at best he shows on trooper going "Argh!" when an arrow hits his back, and one trooper with a cracked shoulderplate. The crack on the armor could have easily occured elsewhere, or a plain defect in the armor.

 

You're not getting the point. The arrow was clearly embedded in the armor -- it didn't bounce off, or fall out after only a little penetration. It is IN the armor. If it manages to achieve even partial penetration, then you could expect a modern bullet, which is a MUCH better penetrator, to achieve complete penetration. And the fact that he yells implies that the arrow did some harm to him, as well.

 

As for the cracked shoulder-pad: it could have occurred anywhere? Alright, but from what? There aren't many threats in the area other than Ewoks and well... hills. So either he fell down the hill and it cracked or an Ewok managed to crack it. Not much room for interpretation there, and either way it speaks volumes about the weakness of the armor. The fact that it could be a simple defect doesn't encourage much confidence in the stuff, either.

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper_armor

 

Err, and? I suppose you think you're clever. Not really. I was well aware of that article and the details of what it says years ago. Hell, I even acknowledged it in previous posts. Either way, that's a wiki, and I've yet to have seen specific instances from canon to back its info up. My source is the movie itself.

[Guest TheJ0ke]

Im pretty sure the GE could just adapt some gorund vehicles with extended hover tech. to form a wet navy if needed. In an answer to an earlier question, the stormtroopers have mental conditioning in place, not giving up information is part of the conditioning I would assume.

Yes, but eventually some would likely give out.

 

If the GE outnumbered the rebellion by trillions of soldiers, and the Rebellion still won major victories against the GE, they only started as a "mere annoyance", in the full swing of the GCW the emperor was dedicated in crushing the Rebellion.

This was only because of Luke. The Empire could have easily crushed the ENTIRE Rebellion during the Battle of Endor. The only reason they lost that was because the Emperor wanted to get control of Luke and as such left the rebels alive, only having a small fraction of the total forces engage in skirmishes with the rebel ships.

[Skirmisher]

 

Imperial Forces

1,500,000 Imperial Soldiers

160,000 Stormtroopers

13,000 Repulsor Craft

23,000 Tanks

2000 AT-AT's

2000 AT-ST's

6000 TIE/ln Fighters

1000 TIE/sa Bombers

 

 

Vs

 

		Active		Reserve 		Paramilitary
USA 	 	1,580,255 	 864,547 		11,035
CAN 	 	65,722 	 	33,967 		4,554
MEXI 	267,506 		39,899 		36,500
CUBA 	49,000 		1,159,000 	26,500
GrLnd	2658 		5350 		0
Carib	58,443		1458		17,000
CenAm	55,762		134,463		65,336

Total		2,079,346	2,238,684	160,925

Grand total of Armed Soldiers: 4,478,955

 

Tanks

 

USA 13,000

CAN 205

MEX 1,171

CUB 1,600

 

Total Tanks: 15,976

 

 

Aircraft

 

	Fighter	Bomber	Attack
USA	3,443 	171 		3,185
CAN	?		?		103
MEX	?		?		107
CUB	?		?		110
Guat	?		?		10

Grand Total Combat Aircraft: 7129

 

 

 

Notes on Equipment

The F22 Raptor could easily handle a swarm of TIE/ln as it is easily able to out speed it and out turn it and out shoot it. The only advantage the TIE has over the Raptor is it's ability to leave the earths Atmosphere. However, without the need of Satellites these fighters and bombers can Easily be tracked and shot at with ground based SAM sites.

 

As well, nowhere does it say that TIE/sa Bombers drop High Yield ordnance, at best they have bombs in the Couple Tons of TNT range... which is similar to large ordnance bombs of Modern Nations.

[Guest Ruinus]

You're not getting the point. The arrow was clearly embedded in the armor -- it didn't bounce off, or fall out after only a little penetration. It is IN the armor. If it manages to achieve even partial penetration, then you could expect a modern bullet, which is a MUCH better penetrator, to achieve complete penetration. And the fact that he yells implies that the arrow did some harm to him, as well.

 

The scout trooper has a backpack, and the arrow is not deep enough for it to have punched through the armor and hit the man inside. That he yells implies nothing other than he yelled. Could have been from the sheer surprise of feeling the hit.

 

It's more likely that the arrow hit the unarmored neck area. I mean, notice how the OTHER 2 scout troopers aren't even injured, and how none of the Ewoks use arrows after that initial volley. Probalby because they realized they were useless.

 

As for the cracked shoulder-pad: it could have occurred anywhere? Alright, but from what? There aren't many threats in the area other than Ewoks and well... hills. So either he fell down the hill and it cracked or an Ewok managed to crack it. Not much room for interpretation there, and either way it speaks volumes about the weakness of the armor. The fact that it could be a simple defect doesn't encourage much confidence in the stuff, either.

 

Alright. So if it's from the hills or arrows, point out all the other cracks in the stormtroopers.

 

Oh wait, there aren't any. As I said, that crack could have occured anywhere, in a previous campaign, in an accident with some machinery, etc. Darkstar never proved that it occured during that fall down that hill. And sometimes defects happen. The fact that it's the only crack in any stormtrooper armor ever seen in the movies DOES speak about confidence in their abilities to make armor.

 

BTW: the crack doesn't even impair the armor at all. It's not a giant gaping defect, it's a crack.

 

Err, and? I suppose you think you're clever. Not really. I was well aware of that article and the details of what it says years ago. Hell, I even acknowledged it in previous posts. Either way, that's a wiki, and I've yet to have seen specific instances from canon to back its info up. My source is the movie itself.

 

Your source is the movie, yes, but your argument is taking a crack seen in the movie and a scout trooper being hit, and then saying "The crack MUST have been caused during that battle!" and "The scout trooper MUST have been killed!" without offering sufficient reason as to why.

[Guest He who fights monsters]

With the Brits and their battleships, Americans with their tanks, Aussies with artillery, Mexicans and their Machine Guns (Mexico invented automatic rifles, practically bringing forth useful machine guns), Israelis with their famous Infrared Missiles and other goodies, Russians with rockets, and even Switzerland gives its share of weapons, as they'd defend their neutrality with a fight.

 

Earth wins either Pyrrhic victory style or by repelling the Empire.

[Guest Ruinus]

Are you changing the numbers?

 

Imperial Forces

1,500,000 Imperial Soldiers

160,000 Stormtroopers

13,000 Repulsor Craft

23,000 Tanks

2000 AT-AT's

2000 AT-ST's

6000 TIE/ln Fighters

1000 TIE/sa Bombers

 

Because you said 2,000 PGBs land on NA. Each has 30 TIE/In Fighters and 5 TIE/sa Bombers, which means 60,000 TIE/In and 10,000 TIE/sa. So, you are trying to level the field then right?

 

Notes on Equipment

The F22 Raptor could easily handle a swarm of TIE/ln as it is easily able to out speed it and out turn it and out shoot it. The only advantage the TIE has over the Raptor is it's ability to leave the earths Atmosphere. However, without the need of Satellites these fighters and bombers can Easily be tracked and shot at with ground based SAM sites.

 

As well, nowhere does it say that TIE/sa Bombers drop High Yield ordnance, at best they have bombs in the Couple Tons of TNT range... which is similar to large ordnance bombs of Modern Nations.

 

The space shuttle has to go 28,000 kph to reach orbit. Considering that TIEs, and every spacecraft in Star Wars can reach space in a few seconds flat, the WEG data of 1,200 kph for TIEs is probably way off (considering that ARC-170s and other vehicles can go 1,200-42,000kph). Even if it's speed is hampered by lack of shields, it must still be going at least as fast as the space shuttle does. Also, that's not the only advantage it has. It can go into space straight up, can do so anywhere on Earth (out or fange of any SAM site), and stay up there and swoop down and destroy a target with no warning. Again, they can just go up and destroy satellite networks, meaning that Earths' armies would have no way to track them. Since they can stay up there for 2 days, it would require all the Earths' SAM sites. BTW, SAM sites have ranges of around 400 KM, and the missiles have ceiling heights. It's not like the missiles will track these TIEs all the way into space.

 

Also, on the topic of yields.

Return of the Jedi: page. 141

"We've added power to the forward shield, Admiral."

"Good. Double power on the main battery, and-"

Suddenly the Star Cruiser was rocked by thermonuclear fireworks outside the observation window."

 

Technical Journal 3, page 18:

Each proton torpedo carries a nuclear warhead rated at just under one kiloton.

Searching around, it seems that there were explicit references to the torps Luke used on the Death Star to be 1-1.5 kT, and I could swear I had the book were this was referenced, but can't get to it ATM.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

The scout trooper has a backpack, and the arrow is not deep enough for it to have punched through the armor and hit the man inside. That he yells implies nothing other than he yelled. Could have been from the sheer surprise of feeling the hit.

 

It's more likely that the arrow hit the unarmored neck area. I mean, notice how the OTHER 2 scout troopers aren't even injured, and how none of the Ewoks use arrows after that initial volley. Probalby because they realized they were useless.

 

 

 

Alright. So if it's from the hills or arrows, point out all the other cracks in the stormtroopers.

 

Oh wait, there aren't any. As I said, that crack could have occured anywhere, in a previous campaign, in an accident with some machinery, etc. Darkstar never proved that it occured during that fall down that hill. And sometimes defects happen. The fact that it's the only crack in any stormtrooper armor ever seen in the movies DOES speak about confidence in their abilities to make armor.

 

BTW: the crack doesn't even impair the armor at all. It's not a giant gaping defect, it's a crack.

 

 

 

Your source is the movie, yes, but your argument is taking a crack seen in the movie and a scout trooper being hit, and then saying "The crack MUST have been caused during that battle!" and "The scout trooper MUST have been killed!" without offering sufficient reason as to why.

Again, still missing the point. I'd possibly be willing to concede the arrow didn't kill the guy inside. But the fact that it achieved sufficient penetration to embed itself in the armor (it'd have to be wedged in there pretty far to do that, otherwise it would simply fall out of a small dent or bounce off entirely) implies that a more effective penetrator would be able to do even more damage. Not only that, but it KNOCKED the guy over. That's an arrow which is absolutely puny compared to modern ones or even our primitive arrows. Poorly constructed out of wood, with a point that seems to be little else than sharpened wood, fired from a bow with low draw weight... I could go on. Yet it knocked the guy over and managed to embed itself in the armor.

 

 

Wait, so it happened previously? And the scout trooper never thought to grab a replacement shoulder-pad? I mean, IIRC the troops sent to Endor were Palpatine's "best", yet the logistics weren't sufficient for him to grab another one? And the argument of not seeing cracks in the armor of other Stormtroopers is as logical as arriving at a Crips vs. Bloodz shootout where only one man was shot and saying, "Oh, only that guy got shot. I bet those bullets weren't even a threat at all." Get real. Just because we didn't see any other scout troopers with damaged armor at that specific, few-second-long scene doesn't mean that there weren't any.

 

And, if I'm not mistaken (I may be, haven't seen the movie in a while), there are several scenes with Ewoks clobbering fleeing troopers.

[Guest TheJ0ke]

*Takes cover to survive the crossfire*

[Guest Ruinus]

Again, still missing the point. I'd possibly be willing to concede the arrow didn't kill the guy inside. But the fact that it achieved sufficient penetration to embed itself in the armor (it'd have to be wedged in there pretty far to do that, otherwise it would simply fall out of a small dent or bounce off entirely) implies that a more effective penetrator would be able to do even more damage. Not only that, but it KNOCKED the guy over. That's an arrow which is absolutely puny compared to modern ones or even our primitive arrows. Poorly constructed out of wood, with a point that seems to be little else than sharpened wood, fired from a bow with low draw weight... I could go on. Yet it knocked the guy over and managed to embed itself in the armor.

 

Again, you missed one of the explanations I gave. The arrow could have punched in through his black body glove neck area. I even supplied a link to a picture showing the back of a scout trooper. Their neck area isn't well defended.

 

Also, the arrow itself may not have knocked the guy over. IF it did pierce his armor, then the pain from the attack could have knocked him over. Again, witness NO ONE ESLE being hurt by the arrows, the two scouts near him aren't injured at all. It's like you didn't read my post at all.

 

Wait, so it happened previously? And the scout trooper never thought to grab a replacement shoulder-pad? I mean, IIRC the troops sent to Endor were Palpatine's "best", yet the logistics weren't sufficient for him to grab another one? And the argument of not seeing cracks in the armor of other Stormtroopers is as logical as arriving at a Crips vs. Bloodz shootout where only one man was shot and saying, "Oh, only that guy got shot. I bet those bullets weren't even a threat at all." Get real. Just because we didn't see any other scout troopers with damaged armor at that specific, few-second-long scene doesn't mean that there weren't any.

 

If you are arguing that the armor is so weak that a roll down the hill will break it, then yes, the complete lack of any other crack in any other of the soldiers armors IS a good argument against "rolling down a hill breaks armor". I mean, the images on that website doesn't even show the back of the shoulder armor, so we don't even know if the crack was already there.

 

I didn't say logistics weren't sufficient. I'm simply saying that: A- we don't see the back of the shoudlerpad before he falls down. B- We don't see similar cracks anywhere else. C- The lack of similar cracks contradicts the argument that the armor is so weak that is breaks easily. D- The crack could have been caused by a prior accident.

 

The trooper may not have had time to replace it. Or he didn't care. Or he hadn't noticed it.

 

And, if I'm not mistaken (I may be, haven't seen the movie in a while), there are several scenes with Ewoks clobbering fleeing troopers.

 

And?

Let me guess, you think that armor somehow absorbs impacts and leaves you perfectly fine? I guess that's why clubbing weapons were never created by real world armies.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Again, you missed one of the explanations I gave. The arrow could have punched in through his black body glove neck area. I even supplied a link to a picture showing the back of a scout trooper. Their neck area isn't well defended.

 

Also, the arrow itself may not have knocked the guy over. IF it did pierce his armor, then the pain from the attack could have knocked him over. Again, witness NO ONE ESLE being hurt by the arrows, the two scouts near him aren't injured at all. It's like you didn't read my post at all.

But the arrow clearly isn't striking the body glove in that picture. We can sit here and nitpick all day about where the arrow is hitting the guy, but it quite clearly looks to me like it's in his back.

 

OK, even if the arrow didn't knock him over, it's the pain of it penetrating his armor. Either way, not good for the Stormtrooper. Again, just because in that split second scene we didn't see anyone else going down to arrows doesn't mean jack. And the second picture from my source gives a clear picture of the shoulder-pad during mid-roll down the hill, and it's not cracked. Whether this is the Stormie that later has a cracked pad, I don't know.

 

 

 

And?

Let me guess, you think that armor somehow absorbs impacts and leaves you perfectly fine? I guess that's why clubbing weapons were never created by real world armies.

Let me break it down for you, then.

 

They're tiny creatures, hitting the Stormtroopers with primitive clubs. The Stormtroopers are wearing armor. This armor, mind you, is supposed to be capable of resisting multiple direct hits from anything less than an AP round or .50 cal. Yet they fall over screaming as these tiny creatures hit them with sticks, often on the thickest parts of their "nigh-invulnerable armor". I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem right to me.

 

And yes, clubs have been effective in historical warfare. But that was often against unarmored or lightly armored targets. It should be noted that the only armor of the Medieval period that provided decent protection against bludgeoning was heavy steel plate-mail, and that was against heavy maces with weighted steel heads being swung by large, able-bodied men. Not teddy bears.

 

If you think gunfire can't achieve something comparable, then I don't see the point in arguing this anymore.

 

 

Even if I was to agree that the armor itself, minus the body glove, is impervious to small arms fire, the Stormies still wouldn't be that well off. They'd still be getting staggered by shots, and considering the volume of fire modern weapons put out, there's a good chance a shot will end up hitting the visor or body glove. But since the effectiveness of the armor is still in doubt...

[Schnee Corp Lawyer]

I always just kinda of assumed that the trooper armor was good at stopping energy weapons but not physical damage

[Guest Ruinus]

But the arrow clearly isn't striking the body glove in that picture. We can sit here and nitpick all day about where the arrow is hitting the guy, but it quite clearly looks to me like it's in his back.

 

OK, even if the arrow didn't knock him over, it's the pain of it penetrating his armor. Either way, not good for the Stormtrooper. Again, just because in that split second scene we didn't see anyone else going down to arrows doesn't mean jack. And the second picture from my source gives a clear picture of the shoulder-pad during mid-roll down the hill, and it's not cracked. Whether this is the Stormie that later has a cracked pad, I don't know.

 

And the problem with the idea that it's hitting is back is that his backpack is in the way. The arrow isn't long enough, in deep enough to have punched through his pack to hit the guy. I mean, the argument on the website is that scout troopers (either their armor or their pack) isn't the same standard of stuff that stormtrooper armor is.

 

And also, no, that isn't the stormtrooper. The trooper with the cracked armor is the one who is looking at the camera, since later on when we see the cracked armor there is no trooper to his right.

 

Let me break it down for you, then.

 

They're tiny creatures, hitting the Stormtroopers with primitive clubs. The Stormtroopers are wearing armor. This armor, mind you, is supposed to be capable of resisting multiple direct hits from anything less than an AP round or .50 cal. Yet they fall over screaming as these tiny creatures hit them with sticks, often on the thickest parts of their "nigh-invulnerable armor". I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem right to me.

 

And yes, clubs have been effective in historical warfare. But that was often against unarmored or lightly armored targets. It should be noted that the only armor of the Medieval period that provided decent protection against bludgeoning was heavy steel plate-mail, and that was against heavy maces with weighted steel heads being swung by large, able-bodied men. Not teddy bears.

 

If you think gunfire can't achieve something comparable, then I don't see the point in arguing this anymore.

 

Ewok biology:

Despite their small size, Ewoks were physically strong enough to overpower combat-trained Humans.

 

Ah, ok. So I was right, you think that armor that the stormtrooper armor must somehow stop transfer of momentum so that the man inside doesn't feel a thing. Here's what though, it doesn't work that way. You could be wearing the most advanced armor in the world, someone with a bat beating you will still hurt you, because even if the armor doesn't break it the kinetic energy still pushes the armor against you and transfers into you. The armor is also thin, so there less stuff in the way to lessen the hit. A stomrtooper being beat by several Ewoks (which are strong contrary to their teddy bear appearance) will have his armor fine and undented. The man inside will be either knocked out or dead from the repeated hits.

If you can't understand something so simple...

 

Even if I was to agree that the armor itself, minus the body glove, is impervious to small arms fire, the Stormies still wouldn't be that well off. They'd still be getting staggered by shots, and considering the volume of fire modern weapons put out, there's a good chance a shot will end up hitting the visor or body glove. But since the effectiveness of the armor is still in doubt...

 

Wouldn't matter. They can win without ever going into a ground engagement at all.

 

EDIT: I mean, hilariously enough, nowhere at all do we see any other armor cracked. Not when the stormtroopers are being clubbed, hit by arrows, or knocked out by rocks falling on their head. Just one guy with a cracked shoulderpad.

[Skirmisher]

Are you changing the numbers?

 

 

 

Because you said 2,000 PGBs land on NA. Each has 30 TIE/In Fighters and 5 TIE/sa Bombers, which means 60,000 TIE/In and 10,000 TIE/sa. So, you are trying to level the field then right?

 

I reduced their bases to only 1000 world wide...

 

I wanted to level the playing field... not have the Imperials level the earth with Bombers...

 

 

Even if it's speed is hampered by lack of shields, it must still be going at least as fast as the space shuttle does.

False, the Space Shuttle does not have Repulsorlift Technology, nor does it have Ion Drives. Therefore the TIE Fighter/Bomber does not have to either Reach those Velocities, nor does it have to use that kind of Thrust. It just has to Float out of the atmosphere like a balloon would rise up...

 

 

Also, on the topic of yields.

Return of the Jedi: page. 141

"We've added power to the forward shield, Admiral."

"Good. Double power on the main battery, and-"

Suddenly the Star Cruiser was rocked by thermonuclear fireworks outside the observation window."

 

Technical Journal 3, page 18:

Each proton torpedo carries a nuclear warhead rated at just under one kiloton.

Searching around, it seems that there were explicit references to the torps Luke used on the Death Star to be 1-1.5 kT, and I could swear I had the book were this was referenced, but can't get to it ATM.

The First Quote: These could easily have been larger Anti-Ship Torpedoes fired from the Frigates or Cruisers.

 

....

 

Sorry I was thinking of the wrong tech journal...

[Guest Jason Redfield]

And the problem with the idea that it's hitting is back is that his backpack is in the way. The arrow isn't long enough, in deep enough to have punched through his pack to hit the guy. I mean, the argument on the website is that scout troopers (either their armor or their pack) isn't the same standard of stuff that stormtrooper armor is.

 

And also, no, that isn't the stormtrooper. The trooper with the cracked armor is the one who is looking at the camera, since later on when we see the cracked armor there is no trooper to his right.

Assuming that it's not the same material is grasping at straws. Is there any evidence backing that claim up? It looks the same, and plastoid is used in several applications. Hell, the stuff is used in making chairs.

 

 

Ewok biology:

Despite their small size, Ewoks were physically strong enough to overpower combat-trained Humans.

HAHA! You should check your sources better, my friend. First of all, that's a wiki. And the source for that statement is... guess what? The movie, presumably speaking of the scenes I was using as evidence for weak stormtrooper armor.

 

[/i]Ah, ok. So I was right, you think that armor that the stormtrooper armor must somehow stop transfer of momentum so that the man inside doesn't feel a thing. Here's what though, it doesn't work that way. You could be wearing the most advanced armor in the world, someone with a bat beating you will still hurt you, because even if the armor doesn't break it the kinetic energy still pushes the armor against you and transfers into you. The armor is also thin, so there less stuff in the way to lessen the hit. A stomrtooper being beat by several Ewoks (which are strong contrary to their teddy bear appearance) will have his armor fine and undented. The man inside will be either knocked out or dead from the repeated hits.

 

]If you can't understand something so simple...

I understand what you're saying just fine. But that depends entirely on the type of armor being worn by the person. For instance, I can show you videos of soldiers fooling around with their body armor, taking everything from

, to hits from sledgehammers and

keeping a smile up and laughing the entire time.

is a particularly good vid. And the latter is certainly a damn sight more powerful than an Ewok with a stick.

 

Generally speaking, rigid armor defends extremely well against blunt trauma. That's the major advantage of it over soft armor. Except, it would seem, whoever designed stormtrooper armor didn't get the memo... Sure, a baseball bat might hurt a guy in soft Kevlar, but guess what? The same wouldn't be so true against a Knight in full plate-mail or a guy with a SAPI plate.

 

And you're defeating yourself with the argument. Thin armor offers even less resistance to a bullet.

 

Also, you should check out the guy who started building suits to defend against grizzly bear attacks. There are vids out there of him wearing the suit and taking everything from multiple hits with a baseball bat to being hit by a pickup truck.

[Guest TheJ0ke]

Ah, ok. So I was right, you think that armor that the stormtrooper armor must somehow stop transfer of momentum so that the man inside doesn't feel a thing. Here's what though, it doesn't work that way. You could be wearing the most advanced armor in the world, someone with a bat beating you will still hurt you, because even if the armor doesn't break it the kinetic energy still pushes the armor against you and transfers into you. The armor is also thin, so there less stuff in the way to lessen the hit. A stomrtooper being beat by several Ewoks (which are strong contrary to their teddy bear appearance) will have his armor fine and undented. The man inside will be either knocked out or dead from the repeated hits

Wait what? I've agreed with you on most points so far, but that just makes no sense to me. While yes, unless ridiculously thick, flexible armor will do little to lessen blunt force unless it's a special force absorbing material such as Kevlar (which still isn't as effective as rigid armor). Rigid armor on the other hand (ie knight's plate armor and stormtrooper plastoid plates) does afford significant protection against blunt force simply because it DOES NOT bend.

 

@Jason

If you were being hit over the head by clubs as little muscley "teddy bears" climbed all over you and slammed rocks into you, I'd think you'd want to get out of that situation even if you weren't being seriously hurt.

 

*goes back to hiding*

[Guest Jason Redfield]

@Jason

If you were being hit over the head by clubs as little muscley "teddy bears" climbed all over you and slammed rocks into you, I'd think you'd want to get out of that situation even if you weren't being seriously hurt.

 

Oh, no doubt. But the fact that these "elite battle-hardened troops" take hits from teddy bears and fall over, as if incapacitated, offering no resistance at all, is a different story entirely.

[Guest TheJ0ke]

Oh, no doubt. But the fact that these "elite battle-hardened troops" take hits from teddy bears and fall over, as if incapacitated, offering no resistance at all, is a different story entirely.

Meh, well (outside of debates like this) I attribute this to Lucas' atrocious sense of continuity.

 

*Scuttles back to cover (for realzies this time)*

[Guest Ruinus]

I reduced their bases to only 1000 world wide...

 

I wanted to level the playing field... not have the Imperials level the earth with Bombers...

 

Ah, ok. Not that it changes much in my opinion.

 

False, the Space Shuttle does not have Repulsorlift Technology, nor does it have Ion Drives. Therefore the TIE Fighter/Bomber does not have to either Reach those Velocities, nor does it have to use that kind of Thrust. It just has to Float out of the atmosphere like a balloon would rise up...

 

False. Ships just don't "float" up like balloons. They go from being on the ground to reaching space in a few minutes. Even if they are just going up the thermosphere they are still going 13,800 kmph. Giant plumes of smoke and flames or no, it's still covering a distance in an amount of time.

 

The best explanation I can give is that since TIEs don't have shields, they can't reach the same speeds as some other fighters can. But if they are going upwards, the atmosphere thins out enough for them to reach those speeds.

 

The First Quote: These could easily have been larger Anti-Ship Torpedoes fired from the Frigates or Cruisers.

 

....

 

Sorry I was thinking of the wrong tech journal...

 

At that point in the battle there were only fighters engaged. It was before the Imperial and Rebel fleet engaged each other.

 

An anonymous fighter pilot's voice came back over the radio. "Fighters coming in! Here we go!"

The attack began. The battle was joined.

 

TIE fighters, first—they were much faster than the bulky Imperial cruisers, so they were the first to make contact with the Rebel invaders. Savage dogfights ensued, and soon the black sky was aglow with ruby explosions.

 

An aide approached Ackbar. "We've added power to the forward shield, Admiral."

 

"Good. Double power on the main battery, and—"

 

Suddenly the Star Cruiser was rocked by thermonuclear fireworks outside the observation window.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Even assuming the Empire wins through TIEs alone, I think it's rather impressive for us that they would have to resort to those tactics in order to achieve victory. And them doing so definitely wouldn't let them accomplish their objective of trying to subjugate the Earth

[Guest Ruinus]

Assuming that it's not the same material is grasping at straws. Is there any evidence backing that claim up? It looks the same, and plastoid is used in several applications. Hell, the stuff is used in making chairs.

 

So because it's white it must be the exact same grade of material right? The plastoid in chairs must be the same type/grade as that found in combat armor? The scout trooper page specifically says how the armor is lightweight and made for mobility and flexibility.

 

HAHA! You should check your sources better, my friend. First of all, that's a wiki. And the source for that statement is... guess what? The movie, presumably speaking of the scenes I was using as evidence for weak stormtrooper armor.

 

Yeah and? Really, how do you think the Ewoks were able to club several stormtroopers to death if they weren't at least as strong?

 

Fifteen Ewoks dropped out of the overhanging branches, quickly overpowering the Imperial troops with rocks and clubs.

 

Because they look like teddy bears they must be weak?

 

I understand what you're saying just fine. But that depends entirely on the type of armor being worn by the person. For instance, I can show you videos of soldiers fooling around with their body armor, taking everything from

, to hits from sledgehammers and

keeping a smile up and laughing the entire time.

is a particularly good vid. And the latter is certainly a damn sight more powerful than an Ewok with a stick.

 

Generally speaking, rigid armor defends extremely well against blunt trauma. That's the major advantage of it over soft armor. Except, it would seem, whoever designed stormtrooper armor didn't get the memo... Sure, a baseball bat might hurt a guy in soft Kevlar, but guess what? The same wouldn't be so true against a Knight in full plate-mail or a guy with a SAPI plate.

 

And you're defeating yourself with the argument. Thin armor offers even less resistance to a bullet.

 

Also, you should check out the guy who started building suits to defend against grizzly bear attacks. There are vids out there of him wearing the suit and taking everything from multiple hits with a baseball bat to being hit by a pickup truck.

 

Except none of those guys were hitting each other hard enough to attempt to kill you (though some of those guys were hit very hard), and hitting you repeatedly. Those guys also had space to move with the blows, the stormtroopers being pushed on the ground didn't. They were also not being hit by several people at once. I'd also like to see the same guys have rocks the size of their head fall on them.

 

BTW the times we do see the stormtroopers brought down by Ewoks is usually when there are several of them and the troopers are forced down, where the Ewoks can start hitting their unarmored underarm.

 

Modern thin armor. In Star Wars their thin armor is enough to stop spears with enough force to knock a man back, and bullets that aren't AP or large.

 

Yes, because

looks entirely like the thin stormtrooper armors.

[Guest Ruinus]

Even assuming the Empire wins through TIEs alone, I think it's rather impressive for us that they would have to resort to those tactics in order to achieve victory. And them doing so definitely wouldn't let them accomplish their objective of trying to subjugate the Earth

 

GE commander: Surrender now or face the consequences.

 

Earth's commanders: We don't surrender. Cut this channel. Alright, begin mo-what do you mean we lost our satellites? What do you mean 35,000 fighters with surface to space cabalities and kiloton bombs are killing us?

 

I don't see how it's impressive for Earth is we get subjugated without ever engaging the enemy.

[Guest Ruinus]

Oh, no doubt. But the fact that these "elite battle-hardened troops" take hits from teddy bears and fall over, as if incapacitated, offering no resistance at all, is a different story entirely.

 

Yeah, because the entire extent of the Ewok's battle was just hitting guys.

 

Return of the Jedi

They felled trees on their foes. They dug pits, which they covered with branches, and then lured the walkers to chase them until the clumsy armored vehicles toppled into the dugouts. They started rockslides. They dammed a small, nearby stream, and then opened the floodgates, deluging a host of troops and two more walkers. They ganged up, and then ran away. They jumped on top of walkers from high branches, and poured pouches of burning lizard-oil in the gun-slits. They used knives, and spears, and slings, and made scary war-shrieks to confound and dismay the enemy. They were fearless opponents.

 

Hilariously enough, the stormtroopers were still winning, he states this in the commentary, and can also be seen in the movie itself. The turning point is when Chewbacca steals an AT-ST and begins destroying their armor support.

[Guest Ruinus]

Wait what? I've agreed with you on most points so far, but that just makes no sense to me. While yes, unless ridiculously thick, flexible armor will do little to lessen blunt force unless it's a special force absorbing material such as Kevlar (which still isn't as effective as rigid armor). Rigid armor on the other hand (ie knight's plate armor and stormtrooper plastoid plates) does afford significant protection against blunt force simply because it DOES NOT bend.

 

Yes, it does. But would it offer significant protection against, say, 3 to 1 odds? Against being on the ground while dudes with knives, clubs and rocks hit you repeatedly? O ragainst having trees or rock the size of your head dropped on you? Rockslides? Sudden floods? The armor is useless if you are pinned and an Ewok forces a knife into the black areas.

 

As you say yourself, even if it did you'd want to get out of that situation as fast as you could. Except that assumes that you can get out of that situation as you are being continously hit.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

So because it's white it must be the exact same grade of material right? The plastoid in chairs must be the same type/grade as that found in combat armor? The scout trooper page specifically says how the armor is lightweight and made for mobility and flexibility.

 

Yeah and? Really, how do you think the Ewoks were able to club several stormtroopers to death if they weren't at least as strong?

 

Fifteen Ewoks dropped out of the overhanging branches, quickly overpowering the Imperial troops with rocks and clubs.

 

Because they look like teddy bears they must be weak?

Nothing in the source material points to them being stronger than humans, and indeed their musculature doesn't even look like that of a particularly tough creature. It's not the size that matters of course (a chimp is extremely strong), but the structure of their body just doesn't imply any level of extreme strength.

 

Modern thin armor. In Star Wars their thin armor is enough to stop spears with enough force to knock a man back, and bullets that aren't AP or large.

Yet the armor is capable of being cracked somehow, a person getting hit by an arrow yells in pain and falls over, and many others are knocked over by impacts. Bullets can accomplish something similar. Guys taking hits to SAPI plates often get knocked over, too. Even if the bullets don't penetrate the armor, they'll be having a bad day under bullet impacts.

 

Yes, because

looks entirely like the thin stormtrooper armors.

Wait, before you said their thin armor is superior to ours? But not advanced enough to be better than armor made by some independent civilian?