Modern Earth Military VS Galactic Empire

[Nesh]

It depends on who leads the GE. I mean im gonna put this bluntly, Imperial Officers suck. They are idiots. There is no possible way they would be able to conquer Earth. However, if they were lead by Thrawn, Vader, Sidious, etc.

 

P.S Stormtrooper armor is made primarily to withstand hostile conditions. Which would make sense in the forging of a Galactic Empire, which is the context in which Stormtroopers were used. However, this does explain the lack of protection the armor provides.

I hate to say it but Vader, Sidious etc ar most likely not going to lead the charge here, Earth is beneth them, until we unveil our secret weapon: LucasArts.

[Guest Ruinus]

It depends on who leads the GE. I mean im gonna put this bluntly, Imperial Officers suck. They are idiots. There is no possible way they would be able to conquer Earth. However, if they were lead by Thrawn, Vader, Sidious, etc.

 

P.S Stormtrooper armor is made primarily to withstand hostile conditions. Which would make sense in the forging of a Galactic Empire, which is the context in which Stormtroopers were used. However, this does explain the lack of protection the armor provides.

 

What "lack of protection?"

Coruscant Nights II page 24

"He squeezed off a blast of his own, and one of the troopers was hurled back. His armour protected him from anything except a point-blank hit at maximum power, but the impact would leave him stunned for a time."

 

Also evidence that Imperial officers suck?

[C.T.]

Also evidence that Imperial officers suck?

 

 

"This space station is now the ultimate power in the universe. Nothing can destroy it."

 

Cue Luke Skywalker firing a proton torpedo into a 2 meter wide shaft, blowing up the Death Star.

[Guest Ruinus]

"This space station is now the ultimate power in the universe. Nothing can destroy it."

 

Cue Luke Skywalker firing a proton torpedo into a 2 meter wide shaft, blowing up the Death Star.

 

A New Hope

General Tagge: What of the Rebellion? If the Rebels have obtained a complete technical reading of this station, it is possible, however unlikely, they might find a weakness and exploit it.

 

Commander #1: We've analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger. Should I have your ship standing by?

 

Of course, I'm sure you can explain how the attack on the Death Star, in which the Rebellion suffered heavy loses, was due to the imcompetence of the Imperial commanders and not on the long lost son of a powerful Force user who also happened to have Force abilities and was flat out told by a ghost to trust those abilities. Every single shot before that into the exhaust port failed.

 

The Rebels were basically trying to sink a nuclear battleship by sneaking a firecracker in through a small 1 cm hole in the hull. If that ship sinks, you'd call the captain of that ship a terrible captain?

[C.T.]

A New Hope

General Tagge: What of the Rebellion? If the Rebels have obtained a complete technical reading of this station, it is possible, however unlikely, they might find a weakness and exploit it.

 

Commander #1: We've analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger. Should I have your ship standing by?

 

Of course, I'm sure you can explain how the attack on the Death Star, in which the Rebellion suffered heavy loses, was due to the imcompetence of the Imperial commanders and not on the long lost son of a powerful Force user who also happened to have Force abilities and was flat out told by a ghost to trust those abilities. Every single shot before that into the exhaust port failed.

 

The Rebels were basically trying to sink a nuclear battleship by sneaking a firecracker in through a small 1 cm hole in the hull. If that ship sinks, you'd call the captain of that ship a terrible captain?

 

 

Ouch, I knew debating with Ruinus would be painful.

 

Relax, I wasn't being serious with my previous post.

 

 

EDIT: Actually the Imperial Command is pretty smart, since the reason the attack on the Death Star had the Rebellion suffer heavy losses was said quite well by a character in the film.

 

"Its a TRAP!!!"

 

 

EDITEDIT: Wait, was that the attack on the 2nd Death Star or The 1st? Can't remember.

[Guest Ruinus]

Ouch, I knew debating with Ruinus would be painful.

 

Relax, I wasn't being serious with my previous post.

 

 

EDIT: Actually the Imperial Command is pretty smart, since the reason the attack on the Death Star had the Rebellion suffer heavy losses was said quite well by a character in the film.

 

"Its a TRAP!!!"

 

 

EDITEDIT: Wait, was that the attack on the 2nd Death Star or The 1st? Can't remember.

 

Don't worry, I don't mean any harm. It's just the way I word my debates... it does seem a bit angry though doesn't it?

 

Anyways, you are thinking about the assault on the Death Star II, and that order came from Palpatine.

 

EDIT: Anyways, this plan of mine doesn't require any sort of tactical brilliance. It just requires the Imperial Officers to play to their strenghts. They can reach space with all 350,000 of their fighters, we can't. From there it's easy, they know they can move at will without fear of attack, and they can attack our satellites without fear of retaliation. I mean, I thought of this plan right now on the spot and I'm not some military commander.

[C.T.]

Don't worry, I don't mean any harm. It's just the way I word my debates... it does seem a bit angry though doesn't it?

 

Anyways, you are thinking about the assault on the Death Star II, and that order came from Palpatine.

 

 

It does, no offense. It's no big though, I can take far worse than that.

 

Ah, so it was the 2nd Death Star. Okay.

[Guest force_echo]

What "lack of protection?"

Coruscant Nights II page 24

"He squeezed off a blast of his own, and one of the troopers was hurled back. His armour protected him from anything except a point-blank hit at maximum power, but the impact would leave him stunned for a time."

 

Also evidence that Imperial officers suck?

Umm, armor being cracked from a fall down a hill? I read one comic book when a stormtrooper was killed by Leia's diplomacy blaster. In the movies, it didn't take more than one hit to kill troopers.

 

Seriously? They have always sucked, they have always been idiots.

[Guest Ruinus]

Umm, armor being cracked from a fall down a hill? I read one comic book when a stormtrooper was killed by Leia's diplomacy blaster. In the movies, it didn't take more than one hit to kill troopers.

 

Seriously? They have always sucked, they have always been idiots.

 

Darkstar didn't prove that that crack was from rolling down a hill. If it was, you'd think he could point out similar cracks in the other troopers armor, or even similar ones on the same troopers armor. Also, I assume you mean a hold-out blaster? Diplomacy blaster turns up no results on Wookieepedia.

 

Also no, in the movies it takes one or two hits to drop a stormtrooper, we don't know if they are actually dead or alive as we can't see them. They could be knocked out for all we know.

 

Provide evidence that Imperial officers are idiots. I'm sure you can provide that some are idiots, but not all of them or the majority.

 

EDIT: I like the idea that because a trooper takes one or two hits to be droped then the armor must suck. It's almost as if real life armor can take serious beatings from high powered weaponry before it fails. So, a soldier in a bullet proof vest takes how much of a clip to be dropped?

[Guest LegendX]

Some people get hit in the vest with pistols and die...

[Guest Jason Redfield]

There's still the fact that the Ewok "arrow" (which is so pathetic that it barely qualifies for the word) managed to penetrate the armor.

 

And he even points out that there are only a few things that could have cracked that armor: rolling down a hill, getting hit by an Ewok, etc. Needless to say, I wouldn't be optimistic about its chances of stopping a 5.56 NATO round.

 

So, basically the GE wins through TIE Fighter spam of epic proportions? Or would that count as using orbital assets...?

[Guest force_echo]

Darkstar didn't prove that that crack was from rolling down a hill. If it was, you'd think he could point out similar cracks in the other troopers armor, or even similar ones on the same troopers armor. Also, I assume you mean a hold-out blaster? Diplomacy blaster turns up no results on Wookieepedia.

 

Also no, in the movies it takes one or two hits to drop a stormtrooper, we don't know if they are actually dead or alive as we can't see them. They could be knocked out for all we know.

 

Provide evidence that Imperial officers are idiots. I'm sure you can provide that some are idiots, but not all of them or the majority.

 

EDIT: I like the idea that because a trooper takes one or two hits to be droped then the armor must suck. It's almost as if real life armor can take serious beatings from high powered weaponry before it fails. So, a soldier in a bullet proof vest takes how much of a clip to be dropped?

Thats what I meant, a hold-out blaster, which is the weakest kind IIRC.

 

Well, to provide a generalization, we would have to look at huge conflicts. How long had the Republic lasted before the GCW? Millenia right? How long did the GE last? 16 years? Overthrown by what? One of the smallest porportion rebellions in all Sci-fi. How bout the Imperial Remnant? Relegated to a weak orginization of Moffs capable of doing absolutely nothing of importance until Sidious' first and second resurrection, after Sidious FINALLY died for good, did the Imperial Remnant get to a higher importance in the galaxy? Sure, led by Pellaeon and Daala. And under Fel, the Remnant became just as good as the Republic. What I'm saying is, the power of the GE is always in a few extraordinary individuals, the "small guys" as history suggests, are pretty useless. So that's why I made the point that by themselves the GE Officers are pretty dang stupid, but united by a "Super-Officer" suddenly the GE machine becomes capable of taking down the YV and doing super-feats of awesomeness.

[Guest force_echo]

The GE is weird now, its in a Cold War with the Galactic Aliance while technically being a faction of the Galactic alliance. Anyway, my point is, if Palleon, or Daala, or Fett, or Vader, or somebody named in the SW Universe is on the feild, the Imperials win. If not, they lose.

[Guest Ruinus]

There's still the fact that the Ewok "arrow" (which is so pathetic that it barely qualifies for the word) managed to penetrate the armor.

 

And he even points out that there are only a few things that could have cracked that armor: rolling down a hill, getting hit by an Ewok, etc. Needless to say, I wouldn't be optimistic about its chances of stopping a 5.56 NATO round.

 

So, basically the GE wins through TIE Fighter spam of epic proportions? Or would that count as using orbital assets...?

 

The arrow wasn't shown to actually penetrate the armor, especially considering that Scout trooper armor has a pack. The trooper lets out a yelp before doubling over. But since the arrow isn't shown to dig in, past the pack, it's doubtful it actually penetrated the armor and actually hit the soldier inside.

 

The black body glove, on the other hand, can be pierced by arrows. Again, if the arrows can crack the armor so easily, you'd think he'd be able to show more instances of this, at best he shows on trooper going "Argh!" when an arrow hits his back, and one trooper with a cracked shoulderplate. The crack on the armor could have easily occured elsewhere, or a plain defect in the armor.

[Guest Ruinus]

Thats what I meant, a hold-out blaster, which is the weakest kind IIRC.

 

Well, to provide a generalization, we would have to look at huge conflicts. How long had the Republic lasted before the GCW? Millenia right? How long did the GE last? 16 years? Overthrown by what? One of the smallest porportion rebellions in all Sci-fi.

 

Overthrown by the right hand man of the Emperor being moved by his son's plight and turned on the leader. The Rebellion's only contribution to this was that it put Luke in a position to do this. Otherwise, it was little more than an annoyance to the Empire.

 

Even after Palpatine's death the Empire falls because the Moffs started fighting each other.

 

How bout the Imperial Remnant? Relegated to a weak orginization of Moffs capable of doing absolutely nothing of importance until Sidious' first and second resurrection, after Sidious FINALLY died for good, did the Imperial Remnant get to a higher importance in the galaxy? Sure, led by Pellaeon and Daala. And under Fel, the Remnant became just as good as the Republic.

 

Irrelevant. We are talking about the Galactic Empire, not the shattered remains that came after it.

 

What I'm saying is, the power of the GE is always in a few extraordinary individuals, the "small guys" as history suggests, are pretty useless. So that's why I made the point that by themselves the GE Officers are pretty dang stupid, but united by a "Super-Officer" suddenly the GE machine becomes capable of taking down the YV and doing super-feats of awesomeness.

 

And this is a weak argument. The GE was purposefully built on one single concentrated seat of power, the Emperor. Had it not been for Vader's long lost son suddenly appearing up again, taking up the path of a Jedi, and turning Vader against the Emperor, the Empire would have continued on past the Rebellion.

 

BTW: the Empire's centralized leadership =/= Imperial idiots. The tactical and strategic intelligence of individaul officers has no bearing at all on how their government is set up.

 

Again, provide evidence that the majority of the Empire's officers are idiots and will lose.

[ND7]

The arrow wasn't shown to actually penetrate the armor, especially considering that Scout trooper armor has a pack. The trooper lets out a yelp before doubling over. But since the arrow isn't shown to dig in, past the pack, it's doubtful it actually penetrated the armor and actually hit the soldier inside.

 

The black body glove, on the other hand, can be pierced by arrows. Again, if the arrows can crack the armor so easily, you'd think he'd be able to show more instances of this, at best he shows on trooper going "Argh!" when an arrow hits his back, and one trooper with a cracked shoulderplate. The crack on the armor could have easily occured elsewhere, or a plain defect in the armor.

 

 

But Ruin, I have a couple of questions.

 

1: Could the armour take a grenade going off very close, or a couple of shotgun shells or rilfle rounds?

 

2: If the Trooper were to lose his weapon, do the Troopers know any kinds of martial arts that would help them out if a solider tried to fist-fight with them?

 

3: If captured, would a Trooper reveal information?

 

4: Could something like a machete, or a axe pierce the Armour, what abount blunt force trauma(Like getting hit in the head with a baseball bat.)

[Guest Ruinus]

The GE is weird now, its in a Cold War with the Galactic Aliance while technically being a faction of the Galactic alliance. Anyway, my point is, if Palleon, or Daala, or Fett, or Vader, or somebody named in the SW Universe is on the feild, the Imperials win. If not, they lose.

 

Galactic Empire =/= Imperial Remnant. The IR is the government that shows up in the wake of the GEs collapse, and though somewhat based on it, it left the Emperor behind as a centralized seat of power (in the IR the Moffs elected a Supreme Commander), and the pro-human bent was removed.

 

Anyway, my point is: Show evidence that the majority of officers are inept and unable to come up with a plan (one, I remember you, that I came up with on the spot). Saying "everyone knows this" isn't evidence.

[Guest Ruinus]

But Ruin, I have a couple of questions.

 

1: Could the armour take a grenade going off very close, or a couple of shotgun shells or rilfle rounds?

 

2: If the Trooper were to lose his weapon, do the Troopers know any kinds of martial arts that would help them out if a solider tried to fist-fight with them?

 

3: If captured, would a Trooper reveal information?

 

4: Could something like a machete, or a axe pierce the Armour, what abount blunt force trauma(Like getting hit in the head with a baseball bat.)

 

1: Presumably the grenade would still kill the man by punching through the black body glove areas of the armor. And if the rifles were firing large rounds, specifically armor piercing or hit the visor or body glove then yes, they could pierce the armor. A handgun, for instance, would probably do nothing. A rifle firing non-AP or large rounds would probably also not do anything. The trooper would still feel the "punch" of the bullet, but wouldn't have their armor cracked.

 

2: Their armor:

The gloves were powered up during Hand-to-Hand combat (power gloves). Presumably, like all soldiers, they receive some sort of CQC training.

 

3: I doubt they would. Stormtroopers know they are expendable.

 

4: Doubtful. Young Jedi Knights: Lightsabers

"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal." ...

"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."

"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness." ...

"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."

 

Qorl, who had a droid arm, throws a spear with such force that it knocks Norys back against a wall, and only barely manages to stracth the armor. If they hit the black body glove though, then it's a different story. Of course, a hit with sufficient force will knock out the stormtrooper (the Ewoks threw rocks down at the stormtroopers on Endor. The helmets were fine, the guys inside weren't.)

[Guest TheJ0ke]

But Ruin, I have a couple of questions.

 

1: Could the armour take a grenade going off very close, or a couple of shotgun shells or rilfle rounds?

 

2: If the Trooper were to lose his weapon, do the Troopers know any kinds of martial arts that would help them out if a solider tried to fist-fight with them?

 

3: If captured, would a Trooper reveal information?

 

4: Could something like a machete, or a axe pierce the Armour, what abount blunt force trauma(Like getting hit in the head with a baseball bat.)

Not Ruinus, but I'll take a crack at it.

 

1a. Depends on the type of grenade. If it's a frag, probably not (at least not against the plated areas). A concussion grenade might be able to harm the trooper behind the armor.

1b. Again depends on the type. Some of the larger (specifically armor piercing) rounds probably could. Smaller caliber rounds would not get through though.

 

2. Why wouldn't an Imperial Trooper know at least basic techniques? They are still well trained soldiers. Particularly the stormtroopers.

 

3. What? You mean under torture? Eventually some would I'm sure.

 

4a. Machetes and other sword-like slashing weapons would not. Things like icepicks or other weapons that concentrate a large amount of force into a small point might be able to damage the armor.

4b. I'm pretty sure that blunt force would do almost no damage beyond whiplash.

[Guest Ruinus]

Pretty much.

[Guest TheJ0ke]

Also, there was some talk earlier about whether or not the Empire had a navy. I'm pretty sure that they had at least some form of a "wet" navy. After all, they do have specialized aquatic troops...

Also, if I remember correctly, they did have some form of floating base.

 

I'm not sure if they would actually have any of this though in this situation...

[Guest Ruinus]

They do have some submarine and ocean ships now that I remember (the AT-AT swimmer and some submarines). The PGBs also come in naval versions, but that depends on how Skirmisher wants us to treat NA. Did the GE land purely on North American land, or in the area and thus the seas nearby?

[Guest sirmethos]

Nah. Not at all.

 

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html

 

Scroll down to II.

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper_armor

[Skirmisher]

Ok, Maybe I went a little overboard on the Bases... time for a Cut.

 

And they only have TIE/ln and TIE/se at these bases.

[Guest force_echo]

Im pretty sure the GE could just adapt some gorund vehicles with extended hover tech. to form a wet navy if needed. In an answer to an earlier question, the stormtroopers have mental conditioning in place, not giving up information is part of the conditioning I would assume.