12:8 - Black Adam vs. Doctor Doom

[comic_book_fan]

i would go with Doom

[DSkillz]

7 hours ago, C.T. said:

6 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

To put that into context, that was Sentry and a whole crew of avengers having already engaged Doom and hit him a few times with everything they had. He was fighting about 5 off at the time and Sentry got him. This is Sentry with "the power of a thousand exploding suns" who is far from a standard flying brick. If he hadn't stepped in, Doom would have wiped out the rest of the Avengers and he was on the brink of killing Ironman.

A good example however in support of Doom being able to tank what Black Adam can throw at him initially whilst he figures out how to beat him.

Thing is, pretty much all of the Avengers were holding back in that fight to some extent, as they were trying to subdue Doom, not kill him. If they were going for the kill, it's a safe bet that the location they were all in would be wrecked because it couldn't handle the power output.

As I've mentioned, Bladam (who has comparable strength and speed to Sentry) would be going for the kill from jump, so Doom, his armor, etc. would be wrecked a lot sooner.

[DSkillz]

1 hour ago, comic_book_fan said:

i would go with Doom

Take Doom's prep out of the equation, then have him go up against a ruthless, FTL, planet-busting flying brick. Then let us know what you think.

[Culwych1]

8 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

It's actually the exact opposite of your Superman example. You have a handful of examples of him using his powers in that specific way, but the vast majority of the time he doesn't use those powers, either because he needs prep time for them, or because he didn't think to use it, or because it's not something he can willingly do at will, etc. It's not just "Doom didn't use it once, so he loses." It's more like "Whenever Doom is in a scenario where it would make perfect sense for him to use his power, he doesn't so it's not likely he would use it here." 

The "someone from a different universe" thing is getting absurd. My point is very simple: Magic has very different rules in Dc and in Marvel, so saying that someone can steal a DC character's magic just because they can steal a Marvel character's magic doesn't really make sense. Doom can steal someone's power because he exists in their universe and therefore understands how magic works in their universe. He uses this knowledge to steal their power. Black Adam's source of power is a completely different source than Doom's. Just because both are called "magic" in their universe doesn't mean they're the same thing. Obviously, physical damage exists the same in both universes. Again, Doom can steal people's power because he understands Marvel magic and can syphon it from people. He has no experience with DC's magic, so there's absolutely 0 reason to assume that, just because both are called magic, he'll be able to steal Black Adam's power.

As I've mentioned, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on these points. We are talking about an all-out fight between two villains - its a very different context. Doom has shown that when he really wants to unleash all out hell, he can - and using all his magic, intelligence, defences and technology will bring Black Adam down.

Black Adam has fought Hawkman. I don't see Hawkman as that much of a threat really, especially to someone like Doom. 

[comic_book_fan]

3 hours ago, DSkillz said:

Take Doom's prep out of the equation, then have him go up against a ruthless, FTL, planet-busting flying brick. Then let us know what you think.

define prep because Doom has fuctions in his armor at all times built to allow him to take on  thor hulk ff he can spam the field with demons  channel the strength of cytorak  and he has the ovoid mind switch all stuff he can do in seconds and  auto shields powerful enough to take shots from thanos  this fight could go either way but i lean toward Doom because he is just too damn crafty say adam beats all of Doom's fail safe  he has no idea about the ovoid mind switch and all Doom has to do is make eye contact  then he has adam's body

[DSkillz]

1 hour ago, comic_book_fan said:

define prep because Doom has fuctions in his armor at all times built to allow him to take on  thor hulk ff he can spam the field with demons  channel the strength of cytorak  and he has the ovoid mind switch all stuff he can do in seconds and  auto shields powerful enough to take shots from thanos  this fight could go either way but i lean toward Doom because he is just too damn crafty say adam beats all of Doom's fail safe  he has no idea about the ovoid mind switch and all Doom has to do is make eye contact  then he has adam's body

Eh, I doubt Vic has all these functions in his armor at all times. Otherwise, the Avengers wouldn't have been able to overwhelm him like in the scan shown earlier. 

Also, if this Ovoid mind switch works in seconds, keep in mind that Black Adam, being FTL, can move in potentially tiny fractions of a second. So, while Doom is trying to get the mind switch going, Adam would've already taken him out. 

Also, even in the process of the mind switch, it's likely that Adam could resist it, since he has resisted Martian Manhunter's telepathy. From there, he could take the opportunity to take Doom out.

[Culwych1]

1 hour ago, DSkillz said:

Eh, I doubt Vic has all these functions in his armor at all times. Otherwise, the Avengers wouldn't have been able to overwhelm him like in the scan shown earlier. 

Also, if this Ovoid mind switch works in seconds, keep in mind that Black Adam, being FTL, can move in potentially tiny fractions of a second. So, while Doom is trying to get the mind switch going, Adam would've already taken him out. 

Also, even in the process of the mind switch, it's likely that Adam could resist it, since he has resisted Martian Manhunter's telepathy. From there, he could take the opportunity to take Doom out.

Just to address the speed factor, I posted a scan earlier of Adam fighting Hawkman, so fighting speed is relative. 

Also, here is Doom attacking Sentry, who travelled to Saturn before he could complete the word no...

All it will take is for Doom to survive one hit by Black Adam, which we have shown his armour, shields etc to be able to do (certainly current Doom who has withstood Celestials), and then his attack will overpower Adam.

And from most of the descriptions online of Black Adam, his weakness is to strong magic ("Characters with significant magical control can inflict severe damage on Adam"). This is playing right into Dooms strengths!

 

[DSkillz]

6 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Just to address the speed factor, I posted a scan earlier of Adam fighting Hawkman, so fighting speed is relative. 

Also, here is Doom attacking Sentry, who travelled to Saturn before he could complete the word no...

All it will take is for Doom to survive one hit by Black Adam, which we have shown his armour, shields etc to be able to do (certainly current Doom who has withstood Celestials), and then his attack will overpower Adam.

And from most of the descriptions online of Black Adam, his weakness is to strong magic ("Characters with significant magical control can inflict severe damage on Adam"). This is playing right into Dooms strengths!

 

Looks like you're taking this out of context. 

Sentry obviously wasn't going at "flight to Saturn" speed when he engaged Doom, and obviously wasn't going at him with anything resembling full strength, either. That one shot from Doom also barely slowed him down, as in this same panel Iron Man is warning Doom that Sentry will kill him. 

In a random, unprepped encounter, Doom's not going to get the same chance to even distract Black Adam, as Adam will come at him full-speed and at full strength. 

And while you bring up Doom's armor withstanding Celestials, I'll remind you again that Adam once ripped through the Spectre.

As for using magic, about the only way Adam can be affected magically these days is if he utters the name "Shazam", and I seriously doubt Doom could get him to say it in the tiny fraction of a second before he gets wrecked. 

[Culwych1]

12 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

Looks like you're taking this out of context. 

Sentry obviously wasn't going at "flight to Saturn" speed when he engaged Doom, and obviously wasn't going at him with anything resembling full strength, either. That one shot from Doom also barely slowed him down, as in this same panel Iron Man is warning Doom that Sentry will kill him. 

In a random, unprepped encounter, Doom's not going to get the same chance to even distract Black Adam, as Adam will come at him full-speed and at full strength. 

And while you bring up Doom's armor withstanding Celestials, I'll remind you again that Adam once ripped through the Spectre.

As for using magic, about the only way Adam can be affected magically these days is if he utters the name "Shazam", and I seriously doubt Doom could get him to say it in the tiny fraction of a second before he gets wrecked. 

Spectre's response to Black Adam "ripping through him" was to say "you dare touch me", and then a second later (1 page) depowered Black Adam completely with a thought. Atom Smasher had to catch him in the air or he would have been a Black Adam shaped pancake on the floor.

Not sure that is the best feat to use in this scenario, where 1. It didnt actually cause any harm to Spectre and 2. Dr Doom's feats against magic users include depowering them.

[DSkillz]

Just now, Culwych1 said:

Spectre's response to Black Adam "ripping through him" was to say "you dare touch me", and then a second later (1 page) depowered Black Adam completely with a thought.

Not sure that is the best feat to use in this scenario, where 1. It didnt actually cause any hard to Spectre and 2. Dr Doom's feats against magic users include depowering them.

My point is that Black Adam was able to rip through an entity more powerful than a number of Celestials, so he wouldn't have a hard time ripping through Doom's defenses. 

As for magic, there's no proof that current Adam would be affected by any magic other than that which gives him his powers.

[Culwych1]

21 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

My point is that Black Adam was able to rip through an entity more powerful than a number of Celestials, so he wouldn't have a hard time ripping through Doom's defenses. 

As for magic, there's no proof that current Adam would be affected by any magic other than that which gives him his powers.

I haven't read it, but Constantine has stolen Shazams powers before apparently.... 

 

[DSkillz]

9 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I haven't read it, but Constantine has stolen Shazams powers before apparently.... 

 

After looking into the issue in which this transfer happened, it looks like John had to specifically prepare and distract Billy to make it happen.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/constantine-5-stealing-thunder-a-trinity-war-inter/4000-418777/user-reviews/2200-38028/

Again, Doom's not going to get that chance to try this with Adam, since he'll be ruthlessly coming at Doom with full speed and strength.

[Culwych1]

6 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

After looking into the issue in which this transfer happened, it looks like John had to specifically prepare and distract Billy to make it happen.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/constantine-5-stealing-thunder-a-trinity-war-inter/4000-418777/user-reviews/2200-38028/

Again, Doom's not going to get that chance to try this with Adam, since he'll be ruthlessly coming at Doom with full speed and strength.

But are we agreed that it is possible, given time, for Doom to steal Black Adam's power?

[DSkillz]

13 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

But are we agreed that it is possible, given time, for Doom to steal Black Adam's power?

Well, yeah, it's possible. Too bad for Doom that he's not going to get the chance in this scenario. 

[Culwych1]

15 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

Well, yeah, it's possible. Too bad for Doom that he's not going to get the chance in this scenario. 

So here is a page stating, "every blow is meant to kill" and the damage output equals breaking Guy Gardners ribs. 

Black Adam meant to kill, but there was no instant kill. 

Plus we have already seen the scan of him fighting Hawkman.

So the question is,

1. Given we have seen Dr Dooms shield and armours stand up to a Calestials blast and that he can teleport instantly

2. That we have seen Black Adam's fighting speed equal Hawkman

3. And we have seen Black Adam's attempted kill only breaking Guy Gardners ribs

What makes you think that Doom wouldn't survive an attempt to kill him?

Really just putting this out there for everyone else, so that we can 1. Assume that Doom will survive some sort of instant speed kill and 2. That we have a view that Black Adam's powers can be stolen by magic.

[C.T.]

We've also seen Dr Doom's shield be broken and the man get beaten to a pulp by Ant-Man, so...

[DSkillz]

23 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

So here is a page stating, "every blow is meant to kill" and the damage output equals breaking Guy Gardners ribs. 

Black Adam meant to kill, but there was no instant kill. 

Plus we have already seen the scan of him fighting Hawkman.

So the question is,

1. Given we have seen Dr Dooms shield and armours stand up to a Calestials blast and that he can teleport instantly

2. That we have seen Black Adam's fighting speed equal Hawkman

3. And we have seen Black Adam's attempted kill only breaking Guy Gardners ribs

What makes you think that Doom wouldn't survive an attempt to kill him?

Really just putting this out there for everyone else, so that we can 1. Assume that Doom will survive some sort of instant speed kill and 2. That we have a view that Black Adam's powers can be stolen by magic.

Black Adam is basically being besieged by multiple heroes every step of the way during this fight, so of course at least a few of his blows are going to be blunted, misdirected, etc. He's not gonna have this problem against just one foe.

Also, since the narrator in the panel is part of the group fighting Adam, he might be engaging in a bit of hyperbole.

[C.T.]

Also, just to point out the whole "it only broke Guy Gardner's ribs", that doesn't speak about Black Adam's blows at all, since the pic clearly shows his ribs broke because Power Girl got punched into him, not a direct punch to himself...it's different.

[Culwych1]

25 minutes ago, C.T. said:

We've also seen Dr Doom's shield be broken and the man get beaten to a pulp by Ant-Man, so...

I'm going to have to reluctantly give you this one. I haven't got a clue what is happening here, and when I first saw it I honestly thought it was fan fiction. 

 

Turns out it is real... but it isn't just Ant Man's power. Here is the explanation from Marvel: 

"Understanding what's happening, the Watcher manages to teleport away with Old John Storm back to the moon. There he explains to the inquisitive children of the Future Foundation as to how Ant-Man is pulling off these seemingly impossible feats. He explains that the nature of the Pym Particles that give Ant-Man his size-changing powers operates on three different axis: size, strength, and durability. He also explains the connection between Pym Particles and the powers used by the Vision, Wonder Man, and other Ionically powered super-humans"

Not a clue what all that means, but seems this is amped up Ant Man with powers from other characters, including Vision and Wonder Man. 

[Culwych1]

13 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Also, just to point out the whole "it only broke Guy Gardner's ribs", that doesn't speak about Black Adam's blows at all, since the pic clearly shows his ribs broke because Power Girl got punched into him, not a direct punch to himself...it's different.

Well spotted, hadn't seen that. Fair enough - but the point still stands about his speed and strength. If he can move FTL in combat, how are any of them apart from the Flashes keeping up with him.

I just don't see anything that would say that Black Adam would insta-kill Dr Doom before he can even think!

I mean, logically if we are assuming in this scenario that they both wake up suddenly in a dense jungle, surely Dr Doom would be a little surprised and get his shields ready for an attack - likely before BA and him even cross paths!

[Culwych1]

By the way @DSkillz, @comic_book_fan, @C.T., @Peypeypeypey - I had a quick look through the past few pages of the Draft Matches, and I think this is the highest number of comments so far - nice work! 💪

[DSkillz]

19 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

... but the point still stands about his speed and strength. If he can move FTL in combat, how are any of them apart from the Flashes keeping up with him.

Power Girl is in the panel, and she can also move FTL. So can the likes of J'onn, Shazam (the hero, not the wizard), and others, who fought Adam at separate times. The faster characters are all engaging BA, so he's being slowed down enough for the others to join in.

19 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I mean, logically if we are assuming in this scenario that they both wake up suddenly in a dense jungle, surely Dr Doom would be a little surprised and get his shields ready for an attack - likely before BA and him even cross paths!

Doesn't change the fact that the moment Adam spots Doom, he's going to work on him at FTL speeds and planet-busting strength.

Speaking of the terrain, I'm just now remembering that humans need some type of apparatus to breathe on Pandora. The moment Adam wrecks Doom's armor, Doom's gonna have another layer of danger to deal with.

[DSkillz]

6 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

By the way @DSkillz, @comic_book_fan, @C.T., @Peypeypeypey - I had a quick look through the past few pages of the Draft Matches, and I think this is the highest number of comments so far - nice work! 💪

Yeah, this is officially the longest Draft debate I've been in since Pizzaguy and I went at it in Season 10's Sudden Death semis! This is a good job with engagement by all.

[Culwych1]

22 hours ago, DSkillz said:

Power Girl is in the panel, and she can also move FTL. So can the likes of J'onn, Shazam (the hero, not the wizard), and others, who fought Adam at separate times. The faster characters are all engaging BA, so he's being slowed down enough for the others to join in.

Doesn't change the fact that the moment Adam spots Doom, he's going to work on him at FTL speeds and planet-busting strength.

Speaking of the terrain, I'm just now remembering that humans need some type of apparatus to breathe on Pandora. The moment Adam wrecks Doom's armor, Doom's gonna have another layer of danger to deal with.

From Shazam Wiki page about Black Adam: "H for the Swiftness of Heru: By channeling Heru's speed, Black Adam, on earth can fly and move at speeds in excess of Mach 10 (2.5 miles a second) and at the speed of light in space."

He has also been shown as moving at Mach 500 apparantely - a top speed for him. This is a fraction of light speed, and in this scenario they are on earth - so some sort of speed blitz isn't happening, and this also explains why he matches Hawkman. 

Planet busting strength is definitely not proven. He is aiming to kill and doesn't kill many of those in that scan. 

The feat against Spectre is highly ambigious. We cannot draw any conclusions from how hard that speed punch was as it did no harm to Spectre at all (he referred to it as "being touched"!)

Doom withstood multiple Celestials power  - they definitely have an output higher than anything Black Adam has shown, and Doom tanked it. 

So, the super speed is gone, as is the level of power needed to hurt Doom, certiainly immediately. 

And then all it needs is a bit of time, and Doom can definitely harm Black Adam who can be affected by magic.

As an aside, the artwork of this Doom vs Celestials is spectacular: 

 

[Culwych1]

On 12/2/2021 at 11:34 PM, Peypeypeypey said:

Again, Doom can steal people's power because he understands Marvel magic and can syphon it from people. He has no experience with DC's magic, so there's absolutely 0 reason to assume that, just because both are called magic, he'll be able to steal Black Adam's power.

In DC vs Marvel, Thor used Mjolnir's magic to divert the magic lightning that powers Shazam. He used Marvel's magic to impact DC's magic. I see nothing to suggest that therefore magic in both universes works the same.

Similarly in JLA/Avengers, Wonder Woman's powers worked fine as well whilst having crossed over.