12:2 - Necrons vs. The Dominion

[Pizzaguy2995]

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

The K-pop things was a bit of a joke. I still naively thought we were engaged in a good natured lightheaded vs debate about fictional characters on the internet. Not a life a death struggle for the future of mankind.

Oh no no no. You are not getting off that easy. You were acting like a straight asshole to me the last post you made whether you wanna admit it or not. It’s one thing to disagree with someone’s point but to actively sneer at them and act like their a dumbass for pointing out actual facts about their subject, that’s not joking around that’s called being a prick. I’m all about keeping things lighthearted and friendly but if you wanna act like a jerk then be prepared for that attitude to be returned in kind.

 

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

You may not be able to declare your units dead, but can you target your own units or get caught in the blast radius of your own weapons.

You also didn't address how we deal with named characters like Sly Marbo etc who have miniatures and rules to with them. If I play a game with him and he dies. Is he dead in the 40k universe?

Seriously dude, the rules outline how things could/should go down if forces meet. They do not say that those forces have met.

Argue technicalities all you want the majority of my points were valid. Also I’m pretty sure the Tabletop game takes place after the events of the novels or wiki lore so yes per this games continuity that character would technically be dead.

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

On top of that, the same rules will allow for situations where Lacrymoles defeat Necrons.

I said the Founders we're on another level because the can and do fool extensive medical screening on top of being able to turn into complex machinery, energy etc.

Can the Lacrymoles do those things?

As for the 40k is older so must have better tech argument. First off the Dominions not new. Second off can 40k sensors do things like isolate specific memories in a brain scan?

In battle or defeat their entire faction? Like I said earlier you’d have to roll very low in order to lose a battle to a minor faction, sure it sometimes happens but you’d have to be a very terrible player to lose multiple battles to a non playable faction cause their usually designed to be minor annoyances. 
 

Look I’ve already explained to you again and again how it is unreasonable to say the Founders are so far above the Lacrymoles when their are certain things the moles do your guys can’t. But honestly there is some evidence that they can turn into complex machines considering they can shape shift into Necrons and their is a small chance that the Necrons will be fooled for a time (again if you roll a very low number). So your guys might not even have that on them.  
 

Also it really doesn’t matter how old the Dominion is, I was just pointing out how illogical it is to say that since the Changelings could fool the Feds scanners that means they can fool the Necrons. Not only are the Necrons an entirely different culture with far different technological advancement but they are at least over 60 million years old, so it’s really not logical to hold them to the standard of the maybe 1,000 year old Federation’s tech. And yes as Fox explained the Necrons basically over a wifi radio signal in their brains I.e. not a spoken language. So they definitely scan each other’s brains when they communicate.

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

The Necrons aren't hierarchal, but they have Overlords? The nature of the way they have spread out means that they have developed very strict and very specific rules for how to interact and whose in charge when they do.

However even if they decide on shooting first and asking questions later. First off depending on the weapon the Founder may be able to fool them. Secondly it disrupts operations and not just in that brief moment. From that point on anytime a Necron believes another Necron is acting wrong they are going to start shooting each other all willy nilly. That's not good for cohesion or effective military operations.

I’m not saying they don’t have a structured chain of command, I’m saying that they make their decisions based on cold hard logic over all else. Also have you forgotten what I said about them being able to auto repair in a second? Like shooting each other in the chest would be an equivalent to humans poking each other, sure it’s annoying but if it’s the only way to make sure someone is who they say they are then it’s really not that big a deal! So again your acting like them shooting each other is a big deal when really it wouldn’t be for a race as cold and logic based as them.

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Yes the beam me Scotty transporter that can beam multiple people at a time and is on all the Dominion ships. They could beam up entire security details and staff and wipe there memories if they so choose. They could beam Jem'hadar down and wipe everybody out and leave a couple of Changelings posing as the leader in question and another survivor. Claim they fought off a Necron attack. Etc frankly the possibilities are extensive. When you've got Dominion all in one place.

I'm not talking about a piece of technology, like the webway, to move there own ships. I'm talking about looking at fleets of ships they don't want around and "snapping" them out of existence with a mere thought.

Let's see ways to win. Politics, subterfuge, sabotage, war..point is even if it's just two ways to win. That's twice as many as the Necron have. The Necrons only chance is to shoot there way. In battle you never want to be the side with fewer options.

So the Imperium and the Eldar have signed peace accords and no longer fight each other? The Orks aren't still making WAAAGH on everybody? Has the grimdark future of the 41 millennium finally found peace?

The Necrons took over the Imperium? And destroyed the Tyranids?

I don't think that happened.

As to your bit about how the Dominion doesn't war. Grimderp 40k fanboying. Both these groups know war. The Founders faced genocide in there early days and have done so to others. The Jem'Hadar are bred and engineered not to surrender etc.

The only side bringing something to the table the other, as far we can tell, has never dealt with is the Dominion, with regard to there shape shifting and infiltration abilities.

 

And what about the reporters? The photographers? The crowd of people of people streaming the event on Twitter or Tik Tok? You gonna abduct, kill or mind wipe ALL of them and everybody live streaming the event? And if you try that during the Necrons invasion the leader will be smack dab in the middle of the largest resistance movement in the area, so you’ll have to abduct/kill/mind wipe almost every single member of the resistance just to get to him. Plus what if the Necrons start killing the world leaders before you can get to them?

Look I never said the Imperium and Eldars were at peace, just that they acknowledged that the Necrons are the biggest threat at the moment and that it would be crazy for them to attack each other while the machines are still around! And the Orks fight each other as much as they fight the other factions, so they usually end up taking care of themselves. 

Seriously stop putting words in my mouth, I never said the Necrons took over the Imperium, but I did say that they throughly kicked the crap out of any Space Marine and Tyranid forces that tried to invade their territory. And they did it with half their numbers scattered and with no knowledge the attack was coming or who was attacking them.

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

As to your bit about how the Dominion doesn't war. Grimderp 40k fanboying. Both these groups know war. The Founders faced genocide in there early days and have done so to others. The Jem'Hadar are bred and engineered not to surrender etc.

The only side bringing something to the table the other, as far we can tell, has never dealt with is the Dominion, with regard to there shape shifting and infiltration abilities.

Oh my sweet summer child, genocide might be something horrific to the Dominion but to the Necrons that’s just every other day. In the Star Trek universe when a group tries to commit genocide they’re the villains and are stopped by the end of the episode. In the 40k universe the Imperium and the Eldar commit genocide against countless races yearly and are considered the good guys. In Star Trek when the Changelings faced persecution another race called the Vorta offered them shelter and protection for no personal cost and the Changelings quickly recovered. In 40k when the Necrons faced persecution a race called the C’tan offered them shelter and protection in exchange for them ripping out the Necrons vital organs, putting them into the cold, unfeeling machine bodies and using them as a slave army against their enemies. 60 million years latter and the Necrons barely remember anything of their past beyond the betrayal they felt at the first race that offered them kindness betraying them so callously.

Buddy the Dominion may know what war is like in the Star Trek universe but they have no idea what war is like in the 40k universe. They’re walking into a whole new reality, and their not even close to being the bad guys in this reality. Bet on that.

[RiotGear]

2 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Oh no no no. You are not getting off that easy. You were acting like a straight asshole to me the last post you made whether you wanna admit it or not. It’s one thing to disagree with someone’s point but to actively sneer at them and act like their a dumbass for pointing out actual facts about their subject, that’s not joking around that’s called being a prick. I’m all about keeping things lighthearted and friendly but if you wanna act like a jerk then be prepared for that attitude to be returned in kind.

I'll get back to the discussion about which fictional space polity pew pews better latter.

First though I think it's more important to try and resolve this issue.

I'm am not certain what it was in my wordIng or perceived tone that offended you.

However, it was not my intention to cause you any real emotional distress, anger, or frustration. The topics being discussed are not worth it. Regardless of the how's and why's. I'm sorry that I did.

If you are up for explaining the how's and why's though. It might be helpful as we may end up debating against each other again.

And I would rather not offend you again. This is supposed to be fun for everyone.

Also I understand that you may not believe me. However remember that we all come from different backgrounds, with different tolerances and different styles of communication. So what might be an obvious slight in your eyes, is a joke or good natured ribbing to someone else.

Granted I am somewhat reticent to do so, but I'll try and address your example above.

When I suggested a Necron K-pop band it was an attempt at hyperbolic absurdity to point out the logical failing of the idea that anything that happens in a game of 40k is canon to the universe at large. This is also why it was brought at the same time as other more sincere examples. Consider it the silly boiled down basic version of the point. Making it easier to understand with out getting into the minutiae of game play and the universe. Also a Necron pop band is a funny visual.

I hope you are ok and I hope we can sort this out.

 

[Pizzaguy2995]

48 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

I'll get back to the discussion about which fictional space polity pew pews better latter.

First though I think it's more important to try and resolve this issue.

I'm am not certain what it was in my wordIng or perceived tone that offended you.

However, it was not my intention to cause you any real emotional distress, anger, or frustration. The topics being discussed are not worth it. Regardless of the how's and why's. I'm sorry that I did.

If you are up for explaining the how's and why's though. It might be helpful as we may end up debating against each other again.

And I would rather not offend you again. This is supposed to be fun for everyone.

Also I understand that you may not believe me. However remember that we all come from different backgrounds, with different tolerances and different styles of communication. So what might be an obvious slight in your eyes, is a joke or good natured ribbing to someone else.

Granted I am somewhat reticent to do so, but I'll try and address your example above.

When I suggested a Necron K-pop band it was an attempt at hyperbolic absurdity to point out the logical failing of the idea that anything that happens in a game of 40k is canon to the universe at large. This is also why it was brought at the same time as other more sincere examples. Consider it the silly boiled down basic version of the point. Making it easier to understand with out getting into the minutiae of game play and the universe. Also a Necron pop band is a funny visual.

I hope you are ok and I hope we can sort this out.

Well thanks for making me feel like the jerk lol.

Seriously though, I apologize for being a jackass too. Looking back on what I typed I feel embarrassed at some of the things I said and feel like I shouldn’t have come at you quite that hard. 

I am sorry for making what should of been a fun debate nasty, thank you for being the bigger person and I hope I haven’t soiled my own reputation by being too argumentative.

I promise to avoid making personal attacks from now on. And I hope we continue this debate cordially and keep it about the topic. 

Thanks again for reaching out. Your a real one.

Extra Note: I should probably add that honestly I wasn’t mad at you as much as I was just already mad in general. When I wrote that message I was actually coming off a pretty bad day, I had just had this blowup with someone in real life and I was still seeing nothing but red. So I’m very sorry you got caught in the crossfire, you really did nothing wrong, I just shouldn’t have got online that day when I was already furious. This is on me and I promise to be better in the future. 

[Mercenaryblade]

It's refreshing to see two people calming down from a flamewar

[Fox]

Amazing debate @RiotGear & @Pizzaguy2995 with a life moments finish.  Thanks to both of you for taking the high ground, being the bigger person and elevating the debate.

I, personally, have enjoyed both of your strong reasoning and writing in the match. Even trivial topics can get heated, but not everyone can transition that neatly back into cool mode like that, so keep on being you. 

Who wins this one? I say you both come out on top.

[RiotGear]

3 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Well thanks for making me feel like the jerk lol.

Seriously though, I apologize for being a jackass too. Looking back on what I typed I feel embarrassed at some of the things I said and feel like I shouldn’t have come at you quite that hard. 

I am sorry for making what should of been a fun debate nasty, thank you for being the bigger person and I hope I haven’t soiled my own reputation by being too argumentative.

I promise to avoid making personal attacks from now on. And I hope we continue this debate cordially and keep it about the topic. 

Thanks again for reaching out. Your a real one.

Extra Note: I should probably add that honestly I wasn’t mad at you as much as I was just already mad in general. When I wrote that message I was actually coming off a pretty bad day, I had just had this blowup with someone in real life and I was still seeing nothing but red. So I’m very sorry you got caught in the crossfire, you really did nothing wrong, I just shouldn’t have got online that day when I was already furious. This is on me and I promise to be better in the future. 

No reason to feel like a jerk.

I appreciate the apology. Though I'm not sure it's needed. You thought I was coming after you. So you stood up for yourself and I don't like the idea of some one apologizing for standing up for themselves. Standing up for yourself is also not something to feel embarrassed about. Your good.

I'm also not gonna hold you to that promise. If I'm being a dick call me out on it. Here's the thing what I said about coming from different places applies to me as well.

I come from a world of snark, quips, trash talk, and sarcasm. It's just how most in my circle communicate and it's not taken seriously. So it's easy for me to forgot that to some people, heck a lot of people. That sort of behavior makes you an asshole of the not endearing or charming kind.

So I want a cordial debate, but thank you for calling me out and please continue to check me if I over step. I don't want your frustration to just simmer inside. That's not healthy, it's also not good for communication.

As to your extra note. I hope things are going better and that you are doing the same.

Again no need to feel sorry I got caught in the crossfire if anything I'm glad you had a rando on the internet to vent at so you anger didn't spill into other parts of your real life.

Thanks for responding and being open to working this out.

Now back to the regularly scheduled debate.

 

[RiotGear]

On 11/10/2021 at 3:34 PM, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Argue technicalities all you want the majority of my points were valid. Also I’m pretty sure the Tabletop game takes place after the events of the novels or wiki lore so yes per this games continuity that character would technically be dead.

In battle or defeat their entire faction? Like I said earlier you’d have to roll very low in order to lose a battle to a minor faction, sure it sometimes happens but you’d have to be a very terrible player to lose multiple battles to a non playable faction cause their usually designed to be minor annoyances. 
 

Look I’ve already explained to you again and again how it is unreasonable to say the Founders are so far above the Lacrymoles when their are certain things the moles do your guys can’t. But honestly there is some evidence that they can turn into complex machines considering they can shape shift into Necrons and their is a small chance that the Necrons will be fooled for a time (again if you roll a very low number). So your guys might not even have that on them.  
 

Also it really doesn’t matter how old the Dominion is, I was just pointing out how illogical it is to say that since the Changelings could fool the Feds scanners that means they can fool the Necrons. Not only are the Necrons an entirely different culture with far different technological advancement but they are at least over 60 million years old, so it’s really not logical to hold them to the standard of the maybe 1,000 year old Federation’s tech. And yes as Fox explained the Necrons basically over a wifi radio signal in their brains I.e. not a spoken language. So they definitely scan each other’s brains when they communicate.

I’m not saying they don’t have a structured chain of command, I’m saying that they make their decisions based on cold hard logic over all else. Also have you forgotten what I said about them being able to auto repair in a second? Like shooting each other in the chest would be an equivalent to humans poking each other, sure it’s annoying but if it’s the only way to make sure someone is who they say they are then it’s really not that big a deal! So again your acting like them shooting each other is a big deal when really it wouldn’t be for a race as cold and logic based as them.

And what about the reporters? The photographers? The crowd of people of people streaming the event on Twitter or Tik Tok? You gonna abduct, kill or mind wipe ALL of them and everybody live streaming the event? And if you try that during the Necrons invasion the leader will be smack dab in the middle of the largest resistance movement in the area, so you’ll have to abduct/kill/mind wipe almost every single member of the resistance just to get to him. Plus what if the Necrons start killing the world leaders before you can get to them?

Look I never said the Imperium and Eldars were at peace, just that they acknowledged that the Necrons are the biggest threat at the moment and that it would be crazy for them to attack each other while the machines are still around! And the Orks fight each other as much as they fight the other factions, so they usually end up taking care of themselves. 

Seriously stop putting words in my mouth, I never said the Necrons took over the Imperium, but I did say that they throughly kicked the crap out of any Space Marine and Tyranid forces that tried to invade their territory. And they did it with half their numbers scattered and with no knowledge the attack was coming or who was attacking them.

Oh my sweet summer child, genocide might be something horrific to the Dominion but to the Necrons that’s just every other day. In the Star Trek universe when a group tries to commit genocide they’re the villains and are stopped by the end of the episode. In the 40k universe the Imperium and the Eldar commit genocide against countless races yearly and are considered the good guys. In Star Trek when the Changelings faced persecution another race called the Vorta offered them shelter and protection for no personal cost and the Changelings quickly recovered. In 40k when the Necrons faced persecution a race called the C’tan offered them shelter and protection in exchange for them ripping out the Necrons vital organs, putting them into the cold, unfeeling machine bodies and using them as a slave army against their enemies. 60 million years latter and the Necrons barely remember anything of their past beyond the betrayal they felt at the first race that offered them kindness betraying them so callously.

Buddy the Dominion may know what war is like in the Star Trek universe but they have no idea what war is like in the 40k universe. They’re walking into a whole new reality, and their not even close to being the bad guys in this reality. Bet on that.

I think somewhere there is a disconnect in how we understand canon/continuity.

I'm not entirely sure where it is. So let me try and explain myself again.

When I asked for a canon example of contact between the Necrons and the Lacrymoles. I was looking for something written by and acknowledged by the owners of the 40k property.

Individual games/campaigns can have there own continuity, but that does not effect the universe at large nor is Games workshop beholden to it.

Going back to the Sly Marbo example. If I play a game that has him killed by a random PDF conscript. That doesn't mean I can change his wiki entry, nor is GW going to change guide books.

It would also not make sense to bring up said death in a versus debate. Involving Marbo.

It is the same situation, on a larger scale with the Necrons and the Lacrymoles.

The fact that it could go in favor of either side. Regardless of the chances is the issue. Because what we would be talking about is possible out comes. If the Necrons and the Lacrymoles interacted rather then what did happen. Because we don't have in universe records of what happened.

I've never said that there aren't things the Lacrymoles are better at. Just that when it comes to the ability to mimic others in the complete sense, down to brain waves, life signs etc, the ability to mimic complex machinery, and esoteric things like fire, fog, and energy. The Founders are better. So far you have not provided evidence to the contrary.

Do we know to what level they can mimic Necrons. It could be purely cosmetic. Right circumstances. That could still briefly fool Necrons.

Most of the time world leaders are not surrounded by that many people. Truth is in an invasion scenario most are going to be moved to secure bunkers etc. That would protect them under normal circumstances, but just makes them easy pickens for transporter fielding shape shifters.

The Necrons are different from the Federation and do have different tech base. Which is why I provided examples of what Federation sensor tech can do. So far you have not provided evidence that suggests that Necrons have superior or even equal sensor capabilities.

So as of right now it still looks like the Founders are better at fooling sensors.

Also especially in fiction ( and even more so when comparing different franchises ) the age of the group doesn't necessarily mean they will be more advanced.

For example Firefly is set after Star Trek the Next Generations and Space 1999 and 2001 a Space Odyssey are set 20+ years ago and we can't match there spaceflight capabilities.

Do they receive sent data or is it a constant stream of all the information that any individual Necron has?

Also how precise is it? Do individuals retain enough information on each other's brain waves to seek out and identify individual thoughts and memories?

And once again even if Necrons are this precise. We still don't have a good gauge of how good Lacrymoles are at tricking them or Necrons and identifying said Lacrymoles.

Even running around randomly poking your compatriots and superiors in a combat environment is not going to do wonders for efficiency. Nor is the discontent of thinking any one could be a Changeling.

I didn't mean to put words into your mouth. Rather I think there was a misunderstanding in terminology. When I said the Dominion brought a quarter of the galaxy to heel. I meant they took it over and rules.

Where as when you used it. I think you meant they held back the advances of the other powers. Which is impressive, but still not the same thing.

The Dominion waged a war of conquest against 3 military power while still maintaining control of there own Quadrant and did so for the most part with a fraction of there forces and no logistical supply from there home territory.

In the end it took the combined forces of the Federation, Romulan, Klingons, Cardassians, and the intervention of damn near literal gods to push the Dominion back to it previous borders.

Do you wanna know how the Founders repaid the Vorta's kindest?

By turning them into a bio engineered slave race. Forced to worship the Founders. The Starfleet admiralty was all for commiting genocide against the Borg, Sisko poisoned the atmosphere of an inhabited world, Klingons wear jewelry made from Jem'Hadar bones. I could go on, but the point is while Star Trek has a lighter tone that the Grimdark that is 40k all sorts horrific things are lurking below the surface.

Good guys, bad guys, it doesn't matter the Dominion are the guys with more options and more win conditions.

 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Necrons: 6
The Dominion: 6

[Pizzaguy2995]

9 minutes ago, UMPIRE said:

Match Final Results

Necrons: 6
The Dominion: 6

Dangit, I tried to post one last point before the match was called. Oh well, good game @RiotGear!

[RiotGear]

2 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Dangit, I tried to post one last point before the match was called. Oh well, good game @RiotGear!

Agreed. Thanks for the debate. Looking forward to our next match. Should Umpire grant us such.

[Culwych1]

A fitting end to an amazing debate. Well done both 👏 

[Twogunkid]

Well played both of you