11:2 - Raphael (TMNT) vs. Cassandra Cain

[Pizzaguy2995]

9 minutes ago, C.T. said:

They might be, with the exception of most of the Foot Clan, but it doesn't really matter. Cass has been proven far more capable, both through action and others describing her(in fact it's been self admitted by Nightwing that he doesn't think he, Jason Todd, Tim Drake and Damian Wayne could beat Cass in a 4 vs 1 if she's going all out) so even if they are in the same class as the Bat Fam or Shiva which is a dubious claim to me, it wouldn't even matter because Cass is on a level above them.

So no, Raph has not proven himself to be just as good. Not in the slightest. 

Has she though? Taken on all four of the male Robins at once I mean? I could show you a scan of Leonardo saying that Raphael is the strongest of the four brothers, would that mean that Raphy is stronger then the other three put together? The fact of the matter is that Raphael’s foes and feats match Cassandra in almost in almost every category and if there’s one feat that definitely puts Cassandra ahead of Raph then show it, otherwise then we must conclude that the bigger, heavier fighter would have the advantage in the Octagon.

[Pizzaguy2995]

3 minutes ago, C.T. said:

This is wrong on so many levels I'm just not going to bother.

No it’s not. Lasers and missiles do in fact generally cover more distance faster then sniper fires. 

[C.T.]

Just now, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Has she though? Taken on all four of the male Robins at once I mean? I could show you a scan of Leonardo saying that Raphael is the strongest of the four brothers, would that mean that Raphy is stronger then the other three put together? The fact of the matter is that Raphael’s goes and feats match Cassandra in almost in almost every category and if there’s one feat that definitely puts Cassandra ahead of Raph then show it, otherwise then we must conclude that the bigger, heavier fighter would have the advantage in the Octagon.

No, his feats do not match??? Not even close??? I've already shown feats establishing Cass's skill, how she's been acknowledged to be the most skilled of all the Bat Family by miles and miles??? How she masters a fighting style in 5 minutes???? How her body reading ability means she's going to see every attack coming????

1 minute ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

No it’s not. Lasers and missiles do in fact generally cover more distance faster then sniper fires. 

1. That's a slow ass fictional laser that's not even close to how fast how lasers actually go. 2. There's no missiles at all in there, there's gunfire(which Cass dodges just as casually and from even closer range), those fictional lasers, and what look like plasma/energy balls. No missiles. 

[Pizzaguy2995]

2 minutes ago, C.T. said:

No, his feats do not match??? Not even close??? I've already shown feats establishing Cass's skill, how she's been acknowledged to be the most skilled of all the Bat Family by miles and miles??? How she masters a fighting style in 5 minutes???? How her body reading ability means she's going to see every attack coming????

And I’ve shown you feats establishing Raphael’s skills and how he’s acknowledged as at least one of the two strongest characters in the TMNT universe, regardless of incarceration. How he and his bros have been trained by Splinter since they were infants. How he and his bros were trained to fight blindfolded and have defeated invisible enemies with just as much training as them.

At no point have you shown me a feat that puts Cassandra squarely over Raph though, I’m fact I have shown feats that put him ahead of her in terms of speed and strength.

[Pizzaguy2995]

7 minutes ago, C.T. said:

1. That's a slow ass fictional laser that's not even close to how fast how lasers actually go. 2. There's no missiles at all in there, there's gunfire(which Cass dodges just as casually and from even closer range), those fictional lasers, and what look like plasma/energy balls. No missiles. 

You can trash the feat all you want, it’s still dodging lasers and it’s still a faster feat then dodging a sniper round. Sorry.

[C.T.]

Just now, Pizzaguy2995 said:

And I’ve shown you feats establishing Raphael’s skills and how he’s acknowledged as at least one of the two strongest characters in the TMNT universe, regardless of incarceration. How he and his bros have been trained by Splinter since they were infants. How he and his bros were trained to fight blindfolded and have defeated invisible enemies with just as much training as them.

At no point have you shown me a feat that puts Cassandra squarely over Raph though, I’m fact I have shown feats that put him ahead of her in terms of speed and strength.

You actually have not shown any feats that put him ahead, while I have done such for Cassandra. To be honest, if Cass was put in the TMNT universe, I have no doubts at all she can take all four of the turtles and Master Splinter in a 5 vs 1 and she would win. Also, same. Cass has been trained to fight since she was a baby too. Blindfolded? Please that's basic stuff. She's also defeated invisible enemies like that, so doesn't mean much.

3 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

You can trash the feat all you want, it’s still dodging lasers and it’s still a faster feat then dodging a sniper round. Sorry.

Nah, really isn't, sorry.

[Pizzaguy2995]

1 minute ago, C.T. said:

You actually have not shown any feats that put him ahead, while I have done such for Cassandra. To be honest, if Cass was put in the TMNT universe, I have no doubts at all she can take all four of the turtles and Master Splinter in a 5 vs 1 and she would win. Also, same. Cass has been trained to fight since she was a baby too. Blindfolded? Please that's basic stuff. She's also defeated invisible enemies like that, so doesn't mean much.

 

 

Yes I have. The two feats above clearly show that Raphy is physically stronger then Cassandra and my missile/laser dodging feat clearly shows that he is just as fast if not faster then her. So no she would not take all four Turtles and Splinter by herself, quite acting like a baby because I’m making good points against your character. I would have thought you had more class then that.

7 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Nah, really isn't, sorry

You can say no all you want, it doesn’t change the facts that I have presented to you. Acting like a child caught in a lie won’t do you any favors.

[C.T.]

1 minute ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Yes I have. The two feats above clearly show that Raphy is physically stronger then Cassandra and my missile/laser dodging feat clearly shows that he is just as fast if not faster then her. So no she would not take all four Turtles and Splinter by herself, quite acting like a baby because I’m making good points against your character. I would have thought you had more class then that.

No, they don't, considering that Cass breaks through brick walls like that on the regular, and the other doesn't matter here as much as you think it does because, while it is impressive, he's not doing it alone. Again, that's not a missile at all and you saying it is doesn't make it so, sorry. Also, again, those are not actual lasers, so in comparison the only actual feat relevant there is the gunfire he dodges, which is impressive. It just happens that Cass's feat is superior, since she dodges at much closer range, with the bullet being literally inches from her ear before she even moves. 

She would defeat them in a 5 vs 1 as I see it, you could refuse it if you wish but that's not what the proof shows. Even if we assume the turtles are on the same level as say, Batman, which is a dubious claim as I see it, but let's say we assume that for the sake of argument, they are. Cass is still significantly more skilled than any of them, something acknowledged by Batman, Nightwing, Jason Todd, Deathstroke, Lady Shiva, on and on they all admit that Cass is superior in skill. Add to that her unique body reading ability, which serves as basically precognition, meaning she sees every attack coming before it happens. I fail to see how between her superior skill and that ability, how Raphael is expected to win this. 

Strength and toughness alone is not going to cut it, since she's also been proven strong enough to get through brick walls on the regular, and I repeat far more impressively, she's gotten through a window of quartz. You know, that mineral that's nearly as tough as diamond? Not to mention her own endurance, which I showed explicitly with her still being able to fight, despite being stabbed in the heart?

Raph might very well still be stronger and tougher but she's not weak herself in that department and even if he is stronger and tougher, that's still nothing new to her, given she fights people like Killer Croc all the time. And beats them, for the record. 

So again, you really haven't proven anything and acting like I'm the one being the child here is just confusing, to me, since you're the one basically sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating yourself in a similar manner to "blah blah blah I can't hear you" and ignoring what I've shown and said. If you want to get serious, maybe you could start backing up this talk that actually puts Raphael on her level? Just saying "he's the best in the TMNT universe" doesn't mean that he's on her level. 

I could say "Kim Possible is the best in her universe" but that doesn't mean she'd stand up in comparison, you know?

So, I'll put it plainly, has Raphael by himself, ever beaten dozens upon dozens of heavily trained ninja, then turn around and completely kick the ass of someone like Lady Shiva, who's proven to be significantly better than Batman? For the record, I'd say Batman is better than say, Shredder, and Shiva's better than Batman by a good margin, and again Cassandra, after wearing herself out on dozens upon dozens of trained ninja, completely destroys Shiva.

Has Raphael ever shown himself to be hardcore enough to keep on fighting, after he's been stabbed in the heart? Because Cass has. 

Has Raphael ever mastered a new fighting style in 5 minutes? Because Cass has. 

Has Raphael ever learned and mastered a new technique in the middle of a fight, after seeing it only once? Because Cass has. 

Does Raphael have a way to win against someone more skilled, who can read his body and know every move he could make before he makes it, who is just as fast if not faster than him, and who also regularly fights and wins against people that are tougher and stronger than her? 

[Pizzaguy2995]

7 minutes ago, C.T. said:

No, they don't, considering that Cass breaks through brick walls like that on the regular, and the other doesn't matter here as much as you think it does because, while it is impressive, he's not doing it alone. Again, that's not a missile at all and you saying it is doesn't make it so, sorry. Also, again, those are not actual lasers, so in comparison the only actual feat relevant there is the gunfire he dodges, which is impressive. It just happens that Cass's feat is superior, since she dodges at much closer range, with the bullet being literally inches from her ear before she even moves.

Yes they are actual lasers! They looked like lasers, they could be deflected from reflected surfaces like a laser, the literal Turtles wiki page calls them lasers! Sorry but you don’t just get to dismiss a feat simply because you don’t like it! And Raphael dodged machine gun fire at point blank range dude! That was literally the same feat with more bullets coming at him!  

Please try explain to me how this feat wasn’t superior to Cassandra’s feat.

19 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Has Raphael ever shown himself to be hardcore enough to keep on fighting, after he's been stabbed in the heart? Because Cass has. 

Has Raphael ever mastered a new fighting style in 5 minutes? Because Cass has. 

Has Raphael ever learned and mastered a new technique in the middle of a fight, after seeing it only once? Because Cass has. 

Does Raphael have a way to win against someone more skilled, who can read his body and know every move he could make before he makes it, who is just as fast if not faster than him, and who also regularly fights and wins against people that are tougher and stronger than her? 

Has Cass ever shown herself to be hardcore enough to survive for hours without oxygen by slowing her breathing and heart rate? Because Raph has.

Has Cassandra ever learned how to master her chi and take dragon form? Because Raph has.

Has Cass ever used her new found dragon form and defeated an immortal demon who had reality warped her entire planet and one shotted a Superman level character? Cause Raph has.

Does Cassandra have a way to beat an opponent who has been trained since childhood to know every single martial art and fighting style (including pressure point attacks) and has the feats that show he is physically faster and stronger then her? And whose gone up against enemies just as tough and strong as her Bat family?

You can argue hyperboles and personal feelings all day long dude, but the main point of this topic is to decide which contestants would win a UFC sanctioned match in the Octagon. And since Raph has at least similar if not superior experience and training, fought opponents that are just as skilled as hers, and is stronger and heavier then her, then I think I’ve proven in this matches scenario Raphael would win! 

[C.T.]

1 hour ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Yes they are actual lasers! They looked like lasers, they could be deflected from reflected surfaces like a laser, the literal Turtles wiki page calls them lasers! Sorry but you don’t just get to dismiss a feat simply because you don’t like it!

Liking it has nothing to do with it, actual lasers move at the speed of light and that was clearly not the speed of light, and sorry but nothing I know about Raph indicates he has faster than light reactions. 

1 hour ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

And Raphael dodged machine gun fire at point blank range dude! That was literally the same feat with more bullets coming at him!  

Please try explain to me how this feat wasn’t superior to Cassandra’s feat.

For the record, I showed you two feats of her bullet dodging actually, if you go back and look. For the sniper one, Cass's dodge is superior because she dodged the sniper shot at much closer range. The gif you're using, there's a clear distance of several feet. The sniper shot, I say again, was mere inches away from hitting her in the head. Mere inches away before she even started to move and dodge. She reacted quicker than him, we can see this from the relative distance of the bullet to target before moving. They're both point blank range, yes, but one is undeniably closer.

And the second feat that I used, which was not the sniper one, also showed her dodging multiple shots, and yet again from a closer distance than Raph's one. That's how Raph's bullet dodge, while impressive, is still inferior to Cassandra's.

1 hour ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Has Cass ever shown herself to be hardcore enough to survive for hours without oxygen by slowing her breathing and heart rate? Because Raph has.

Okay, one thing, why are you dodging my questions? Why did you not answer any of them? Is it because you know you have no good answer? 

Secondly, are you going to show any of these feats you describe here?

That out of the way, as far as I know she's never shown to survive for hours doing so, but she can slow her breathing and heart rate, yes. Though I am not sure how relevant that is.

1 hour ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Has Cassandra ever learned how to master her chi and take dragon form? Because Raph has.

No, she's not Iron Fist. 

1 hour ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Has Cass ever used her new found dragon form and defeated an immortal demon who had reality warped her entire planet and one shotted a Superman level character? Cause Raph has.

No, she's not Iron Fist. Though, while she hasn't one shotted Supermen level characters, she has fought against some before. One example here, where she almost had Supergirl beat were it not for something she didn't expect. To be fair though, she did stack the deck in her favor with red sunlight. https://imgur.com/a/FbIwf

And held her own against a Bizarro Supergirl. https://imgur.com/a/7IVBj

And another time, she got through Superboy's forcefield. https://imgur.com/PBIeynr

1 hour ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Does Cassandra have a way to beat an opponent who has been trained since childhood to know every single martial art and fighting style (including pressure point attacks) and has the feats that show he is physically faster and stronger then her? And whose gone up against enemies just as tough and strong as her Bat family?

Yes, she's beaten her father, David Cain, who went through exactly that training, had all those skills, and while I'd argue they're on the same level speed wise, he was stronger than her. She still beat him though, and she didn't make it seem too difficult. 

That, in addition to all the greats she's beaten, in some cases completely thrashed in a fight, including Batman, Shiva, Bronze Tiger, Nightwing etc etc.

1 hour ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

You can argue hyperboles and personal feelings all day long dude, but the main point of this topic is to decide which contestants would win a UFC sanctioned match in the Octagon. And since Raph has at least similar if not superior experience and training, fought opponents that are just as skilled as hers, and is stronger and heavier then her, then I think I’ve proven in this matches scenario Raphael would win! 

Gotta disagree once more. Well, on some points. Raph might have more experience than her, I don't know how old he is in various continuities and what the general range is there, but similar training? As far as I know that's a big nope, Raph wasn't trained by depriving speech in order to become nothing more than a living breathing weapon like Cass was. Was he? Was he taught increased tolerance of pain by Splinter shooting him with guns as a young child and telling him to not dodge it, or stabbing/cutting him regularly? While Splinter taught them well, he obviously cares for his adopted sons. But David Cain trained her more brutally, kept her from developing speech like a regular person so she would become even more capable. He didn't care so long as he got his weapon.

Raph's a good fighter, I've never denied that, but their training was not similar, I do not believe that. 

Granted, Raph is heavier than her, true. But you have not proven he's stronger than her, given that she matches his feat with the brick wall, and surpasses it with the quartz window one, as I've said multiple times now. And consequently no, you have not proven he'd win this fight. Nothing I've seen from you here indicates that to me. 

He's not as skilled as she is, he has no counter for her body reading ability which lets her anticipate every attack he'd try, their strength and speed are in the same range(though again, I'd argue hers is superior in both counts from the feats I presented), and bringing back a point I made earlier, she could exploit his temper. Like, the more she dodges or counters attacks, the more angry he could get, and consequently the more sloppy as well. Not that I think she would need to do so, given that she overall matches him in physical stats and is superior to him in skill and has an ability he just can't counter. 

 

[Pizzaguy2995]

18 hours ago, C.T. said:

Gotta disagree once more. Well, on some points. Raph might have more experience than her, I don't know how old he is in various continuities and what the general range is there, but similar training? As far as I know that's a big nope, Raph wasn't trained by depriving speech in order to become nothing more than a living breathing weapon like Cass was. Was he? Was he taught increased tolerance of pain by Splinter shooting him with guns as a young child and telling him to not dodge it, or stabbing/cutting him regularly? While Splinter taught them well, he obviously cares for his adopted sons. But David Cain trained her more brutally, kept her from developing speech like a regular person so she would become even more capable. He didn't care so long as he got his weapon.

Raph's a good fighter, I've never denied that, but their training was not similar, I do not believe that. 

Granted, Raph is heavier than her, true. But you have not proven he's stronger than her, given that she matches his feat with the brick wall, and surpasses it with the quartz window one, as I've said multiple times now. And consequently no, you have not proven he'd win this fight. Nothing I've seen from you here indicates that to me. 

He's not as skilled as she is, he has no counter for her body reading ability which lets her anticipate every attack he'd try, their strength and speed are in the same range(though again, I'd argue hers is superior in both counts from the feats I presented), and bringing back a point I made earlier, she could exploit his temper. Like, the more she dodges or counters attacks, the more angry he could get, and consequently the more sloppy as well. Not that I think she would need to do so, given that she overall matches him in physical stats and is superior to him in skill and has an ability he just can't counter. 

So training to stand still as your being shot and cut counts as “superior training”? If anything that sort of training actually makes you weaker, not stronger. I had family members who served as Marines who told me some enlightening truths about “pain tolerance” training, specifically the ones used by their Russian equivalents. They used to tell me how part the reason why Russian operations and engagements generally lead to greater casualties and failures then the US was because the “pain tolerance” training just doesn’t work, it makes someone so numb and uncaring to the pain that they stop caring about trying to stay alive to complete the ops. They would half jokingly say that the Russians train their troops to embrace pain and dying and that the Marines train to avoid pain and dying. 

When I said Raph and Cass’s training was similar, I meant in similar martial arts and fighting styles. Your right that the methods were different, but if anything their worse for Cassandra then Raphael.

And dude how many times do I have to show you the feat of Raphy squatting a giant stone pillar?

Even if Raph only held up half of what must be at least 40 or 50 tons of stone that’s still far above anything a peak human like Cass has shown the ability to do. So yes that would in fact make him stronger and heavier then Cassandra. 

Here’s a point that you’ve yet to explain to me C.T., can Cass beat Raphael without ANY joint strikes, throat strikes, hits to the spine or back of the neck, no eye gouging of any kind, no downward pointing elbow strikes, and no groin attacks of ANY kind. Here’s another reason why her training with Daddy Cain would be inferior to Splinter’s training, most of the things David Cain taught her to do would be illegal under UFC rules! That’s again why in this scenario strength and weight advantages trump almost anything else. Plus Raph's personal style of combining wrestling moves like grappling and body slams would translate much better to fighting in the Octagon then Cassandra’s.

[C.T.]

46 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

So training to stand still as your being shot and cut counts as “superior training”?

No, I was just illustrating the differences in approaches, there. That isn't the part that is the superior training, no. 

46 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

When I said Raph and Cass’s training was similar, I meant in similar martial arts and fighting styles. Your right that the methods were different, but if anything their worse for Cassandra then Raphael.

A lot of the methods are more brutal and cruel, absolutely, but they've made Cass a better fighter than Raph. 

46 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

And dude how many times do I have to show you the feat of Raphy squatting a giant stone pillar?

About as many times I have to tell you that's not really impressive and relevant at all, I guess. For one, as has been pointed out and admitted, he's not doing that alone. Not to mention she regularly fights and wins against people stronger than her. Three, even if we go with Raphael being stronger, it doesn't even matter since Cass's body reading ability means he won't be able to land any attack and so he can't utilize any of that strength. 

46 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Here’s a point that you’ve yet to explain to me C.T., can Cass beat Raphael without ANY joint strikes, throat strikes, hits to the spine or back of the neck, no eye gouging of any kind, no downward pointing elbow strikes, and no groin attacks of ANY kind.

Yeah, not a problem at all. 

46 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Here’s another reason why her training with Daddy Cain would be inferior to Splinter’s training, most of the things David Cain taught her to do would be illegal under UFC rules!

It's actually not inferior since it made her the superior fighter, and gave her an ability he just can't counter. More brutal, cruel and malicious, yes, but not inferior. As for the illegal under those rules, you're likely right but oh hey, what's that? She's learned from plenty of other people too? Oh, and she could learn and master Raph's moves just from seeing him try to use them in the middle of the fight?

46 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

That’s again why in this scenario strength and weight advantages trump almost anything else.

Doesn't trump her greater skill and body reading ability which means he wouldn't be able to land any attacks, you know. 

46 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Plus Raph's personal style of combining wrestling moves like grappling and body slams would translate much better to fighting in the Octagon then Cassandra’s.

You mean the style that Cassandra would instantly learn just by watching? And the style that wouldn't have any successful attacks hit, because of her body reading ability?

Also, hey, you still haven't answered my questions! : )

[Pizzaguy2995]

28 minutes ago, C.T. said:

About as many times I have to tell you that's not really impressive and relevant at all, I guess. For one, as has been pointed out and admitted, he's not doing that alone. Not to mention she regularly fights and wins against people stronger than her. Three, even if we go with Raphael being stronger, it doesn't even matter since Cass's body reading ability means he won't be able to land any attack and so he can't utilize any of that strength. 

So your denying that he had to bench at least half of that weight for himself? In one breath are you saying that if me and you together managed to carry a 400 pound refrigerator that we would be weaker then a guy who can only bench 90 pounds because we didn’t do it alone? WTF kind of logic is that? As I keep repeating Raph had to carry at least half of that weight, which is at least 40 or 50 tons of stone. Has Cass ever proven she can bench 20 or 25 tons of weight? If not then she’s physically weaker then Raph! So it’s confirmed that Raph is physically much stronger then her!

28 minutes ago, C.T. said:

It's actually not inferior since it made her the superior fighter, and gave her an ability he just can't counter. More brutal, cruel and malicious, yes, but not inferior. As for the illegal under those rules, you're likely right but oh hey, what's that? She's learned from plenty of other people too? Oh, and she could learn and master Raph's moves just from seeing him try to use them in the middle of the fight?

It is inferior if it leaves crippled and unready for this fight because she’s had it drilled into her head since birth to do whatever it takes to win a fight, and it won’t be so easy for her to turn on the “no cheap shots” switch in her brain if she’s fighting an opponent whose skills and fighting abilities would give her trouble on her best days! 

45 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Yeah, not a problem at all. 

Great! Then name me one fight where she fought an opponent who was stronger and heavier then her that she didn’t use ANY type of cheap shots, joint attacks, throat shots, or ANYTHING that would be illegal in a UFC fight to win. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

50 minutes ago, C.T. said:

You mean the style that Cassandra would instantly learn just by watching? And the style that wouldn't have any successful attacks hit, because of her body reading ability?

Also, hey, you still haven't answered my questions! : )

 Dude don’t be a troll. You know damn well that Cass can and will be tagged by Raphael, she’s been tagged by Ravager and Nightwing before and both their speeds are equal to Raphs. So stop saying that her body reading ability automatically means she can’t be touched! She’s a badass but she’s still just a human being and she’s gonna take as much hits from Raph as she’s gonna give. Only difference is that Raph’s hits are gonna rattle her much more then her hits are gonna rattle him.

[C.T.]

27 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

So your denying that he had to bench at least half of that weight for himself? In one breath are you saying that if me and you together managed to carry a 400 pound refrigerator that we would be weaker then a guy who can only bench 90 pounds because we didn’t do it alone? WTF kind of logic is that? As I keep repeating Raph had to carry at least half of that weight, which is at least 40 or 50 tons of stone. Has Cass ever proven she can bench 20 or 25 tons of weight? If not then she’s physically weaker then Raph! So it’s confirmed that Raph is physically much stronger then her!

As I said, even if he is, it doesn't matter.

27 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

It is inferior if it leaves crippled and unready for this fight because she’s had it drilled into her head since birth to do whatever it takes to win a fight, and it won’t be so easy for her to turn on the “no cheap shots” switch in her brain if she’s fighting an opponent whose skills and fighting abilities would give her trouble on her best days! 

Raph isn't an opponent who would give her trouble on her best days though. He just isn't.

27 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Great! Then name me one fight where she fought an opponent who was stronger and heavier then her that she didn’t use ANY type of cheap shots, joint attacks, throat shots, or ANYTHING that would be illegal in a UFC fight to win. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

Dick Grayson, Red Hood, Bizarro Supergirl(for the most part? The double kick to the stomach might be too much there admittedly, oh and the throw)...

27 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

 Dude don’t be a troll. You know damn well that Cass can and will be tagged by Raphael, she’s been tagged by Ravager and Nightwing before and both their speeds are equal to Raphs. So stop saying that her body reading ability automatically means she can’t be touched! She’s a badass but she’s still just a human being and she’s gonna take as much hits from Raph as she’s gonna give. Only difference is that Raph’s hits are gonna rattle her much more then her hits are gonna rattle him.

It's not being a troll, it's being accurate. To use your examples, I'll bring the proof of both a Ravager and a Nightwing fight in which Cassandra was never tagged once by either of them. 

https://imgur.com/a/je9XN

Ravager didn't land a single blow. Though in her case, there has been fights where she has, but that's due to both Cassandra being drugged, and also because she has actual precognition as well, which is something Raph doesn't. It was not from skill alone.

https://imgur.com/a/H8upX

Oh, look at that, neither did Nightwing. Oh, and here's another time where Nightwing admits he wouldn't even be able to land a hit if she didn't want it to, so he asks Cassandra to pretend he does.

It's been proven in a fight and by Nightwing's own admission that he couldn't hit her. And you know what, neither would Raphael. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't true. 

So if anyone's being a troll here, it's you, sorry bud.

[C.T.]

As a final post on this, as I'm pretty sure I've proven repeatedly that Raph doesn't have what it takes to win here and I'm tired of going around in circles, here's some more statements on Cassandra. Raph is a great fighter, but Cass is better. This is my last on this, and besides this match is going to be over soon. 

 

[SSJRuss]

This has been one hell of a CBUB debate. Really a good throwdown.

I'm siding with Raphael argument. Cass is the physical underdog and fighting out of her weight class. Nothing unusual for her but we are using MMA rules, so I think that favors Raph. Even if slightly.

[Peypeypeypey]

34 minutes ago, SSJRuss said:

This has been one hell of a CBUB debate. Really a good throwdown.

I'm siding with Raphael argument. Cass is the physical underdog and fighting out of her weight class. Nothing unusual for her but we are using MMA rules, so I think that favors Raph. Even if slightly.

This is the last thing I'll say on this thread, but the logic being used here baffles me. It's pretty widely accepted that Batman could beat any of the ninja turtles. In fact, in the crossover, he pretty handily beats all 4 of them at once (I know that's not canon, I'm just using it as a frame of reference for how ubiquitous Batman's superiority is). Cassie can go even with and get the better of Batman, and can beat people better than Batman in strict H2H. I know it's ABC logic, but when we're talking about pure tests of skill and athleticism, then I think it makes sense to look at who could beat who.  

[Pizzaguy2995]

3 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

This is the last thing I'll say on this thread, but the logic being used here baffles me. It's pretty widely accepted that Batman could beat any of the ninja turtles. In fact, in the crossover, he pretty handily beats all 4 of them at once (I know that's not canon, I'm just using it as a frame of reference for how ubiquitous Batman's superiority is). Cassie can go even with and get the better of Batman, and can beat people better than Batman in strict H2H. I know it's ABC logic, but when we're talking about pure tests of skill and athleticism, then I think it makes sense to look at who could beat who.  

The same Raphael used in 2003? The same Batman from the comics? Or an entirely different set of Batman and Turtles that are entirely unrelated to this matchup?

[Peypeypeypey]

4 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

The same Raphael used in 2003? The same Batman from the comics? Or an entirely different set of Batman and Turtles that are entirely unrelated to this matchup?

I literally said it wasn't canon to this fight. I used it as an example of the ubiquity of the knowledge that Batman is superior to the turtles. I said that in my post:

10 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

 In fact, in the crossover, he pretty handily beats all 4 of them at once (I know that's not canon, I'm just using it as a frame of reference for how ubiquitous Batman's superiority is).

 

[Pizzaguy2995]

18 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I literally said it wasn't canon to this fight. I used it as an example of the ubiquity of the knowledge that Batman is superior to the turtles. I said that in my post:

 

It’s a ubiquity knowledge because it appeared in ONE piece of media? So if I show you one Star Trek/X-Men crossover comic where Spock takes down Wolverine would that mean Spock is ubiquity superior to Wolverine?

[Pizzaguy2995]

4 hours ago, C.T. said:

It's not being a troll, it's being accurate. To use your examples, I'll bring the proof of both a Ravager and a Nightwing fight in which Cassandra was never tagged once by either of them. 

https://imgur.com/a/je9XN

Ravager didn't land a single blow. Though in her case, there has been fights where she has, but that's due to both Cassandra being drugged, and also because she has actual precognition as well, which is something Raph doesn't. It was not from skill alone.

https://imgur.com/a/H8upX

Oh, look at that, neither did Nightwing. Oh, and here's another time where Nightwing admits he wouldn't even be able to land a hit if she didn't want it to, so he asks Cassandra to pretend he does.

It's been proven in a fight and by Nightwing's own admission that he couldn't hit her. And you know what, neither would Raphael. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't true. 

So if anyone's being a troll here, it's you, sorry bud.

Don’t worry buddy I’ll make sure to upload the scenes of Cass getting hit and proving she can be beaten to even out your clips:

The second clip clearly shows Cass clipped in the chin by Nightwing and by the end it looks like Nightwing is just getting ready to get serious until Alfred arrives in the next scene to call it off.

In the second scene we clearly see Jason has grabbed Cass by the throat and pushed her against the bar with his blades over her head! Sure looks like her reading ability did not help her there. And Jason made certain to let her know it!

And since your a fan of statement feats, here’s a statement that let’s everyone know indefinitely that Dick himself truly believes that if he and Cass were to go all out then her body reading abilities won’t save her from getting a night stick up her ass!

But like you said, we’re getting close to the end of this so I guess I’ll end it at here as well.

It’s in your hands now dear CBUB voters. Please vote for Raphy!

[Fox]

This thread is En Fuego!

I wish I could vote for both!

 

[RakaiThwei]

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

It's pretty widely accepted that Batman could beat any of the ninja turtles. In fact, in the crossover, he pretty handily beats all 4 of them at once (I know that's not canon, I'm just using it as a frame of reference for how ubiquitous Batman's superiority is).

Except for possibly the Mirage Turtles, and IDW's Last Ronin Michelangelo-- who's stated to have mastered EVERY Martial Art there is to avenge his fallen family.

In the case of the Mirage Turtles, Batman HAS in fact met them and briefly engaged in a skirmish with Raphael in the third crossover. And this is shortly right after Mirage Raphael beats down an Amalgam Robin/TMNT team, and an Amalgam Splinter/Alfred states to the Robin/TMNT team that Mirage Raphael was PLAYING with them and Mirage Raphael states to Splinter that his assumption is correct. He then engages Batman in a skirmish, neither being able to overwhelm the other before Raphael disengages to explain to Batman what is really going on with the amalgamated universes.

Non-canon, most likely though but it's consistent with the Mirage Turtles beating down other TMNT teams, and it supports that the Mirage Turtles are pretty high up there compared to their other multi-colored incarnations.

Oh and uh... Batman DIDN'T beat IDW Splinter. Those two came to a stand still.

[C.T.]

3 hours ago, SSJRuss said:

This has been one hell of a CBUB debate. Really a good throwdown.

I'm siding with Raphael argument. Cass is the physical underdog and fighting out of her weight class. Nothing unusual for her but we are using MMA rules, so I think that favors Raph. Even if slightly.

Ok, I did say that would be the last thing I would post on this match but I guess I was premature. I don’t get this.

And just for clarification…

2 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

The second clip clearly shows Cass clipped in the chin by Nightwing and by the end it looks like Nightwing is just getting ready to get serious until Alfred arrives in the next scene to call it off.

Admittedly, a good shot, yet he’s still getting knocked around more, you know?

2 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

In the second scene we clearly see Jason has grabbed Cass by the throat and pushed her against the bar with his blades over her head! Sure looks like her reading ability did not help her there. And Jason made certain to let her know it!

Uh, for context, you did pay attention to what Dick Grayson said, right? Also, for more context, this is what they say later.

A fight she never tried to win, does that really count?

2 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

And since your a fan of statement feats, here’s a statement that let’s everyone know indefinitely that Dick himself truly believes that if he and Cass were to go all out then her body reading abilities won’t save her from getting a night stick up her ass!

Actually that’s just Dick working out his frustrated anger and Cass letting him work it out since she feels guilt for succumbing to Deathstroke drugging and mind controlling her and the actions she did while under that influence, you know? Full context? That’s a complete bluff.

2 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

It’s in your hands now dear CBUB voters. Please vote for Raphy!

Or don’t, since he wouldn’t win here really. But yeah okay now I’ll try to be done, here.

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Raphael (TMNT): 7
Cassandra Cain: 9