7:1 - Porunga vs. Starkiller

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Porunga: 8
Starkiller: 8

[Fox]

A Tie.

[Macklemore]

Genuinely curious as to how

[Fox]

Just now, Macklemore said:

Genuinely curious as to how

That is how people voted for whatever reasons.  There is no issue with the website mechanics of it.

[Macklemore]

Just now, Fox said:

That is how people voted for whatever reasons.  There is no issue with the website mechanics of it.

Oh nah, hahaha. I was not dissing the mechanics. I was just under the impression there was no one person willing to vote for Porunga, let alone 8.

[Peypeypeypey]

A tie? What? A being that can directly be scaled to Porunga got one shot by a dude who is many tiers below Starkiller.

I don't get it

[SSJRuss]

2 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

A tie? What? A being that can directly be scaled to Porunga got one shot by a dude who is many tiers below Starkiller.

I don't get it

Porunga is scaled higher than Earth Dragon. The Piccolo argument doesn't make sense. 8 individuals agree

[Peypeypeypey]

1 minute ago, SSJRuss said:

Porunga is scaled higher than Earth Dragon. The Piccolo argument doesn't make sense. 8 individuals agree

In what way is Porunga scaled higher than Shenron? Because he can grant 3 wishes instead of 1? If a being who is many tiers lower than the category had three-shot him instead of one-shotting him, it wouldn't really make him look any stronger. Porunga has 0 combat feats, so there's literally no reason to scale him higher than Shenron. There's not even any reason to scale him as high as Shenron if you go just by feats

[DSkillz]

Hah, a tie!😆 I do believe that's a Fantasy Draft first.

[SSJRuss]

6 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

In what way is Porunga scaled higher than Shenron? Because he can grant 3 wishes instead of 1? If a being who is many tiers lower than the category had three-shot him instead of one-shotting him, it wouldn't really make him look any stronger. Porunga has 0 combat feats, so there's literally no reason to scale him higher than Shenron. There's not even any reason to scale him as high as Shenron if you go just by feats

If my understanding is right, yes. He is stated to be stronger. We know this because Porunga can revive those who've died once already and Shenron couldn't do that. Not to mention he brought back nearly the entire namekian race, something I don't know Shenron could do (at that scale and before the Dende buff). And I'm saying Porunga's strength comes from magic (which we've seen in DB) because I don't think it comes from Ki or Divinity (Like Beerus and Whis). That power is his feat and we've seen every new dragon that's introduced to be 'stronger' than the ones the Z fighters have used in the past. The Super Dragon Balls > The Namekian Dragon Balls > The Earth Dragon Balls. This translates to the dragons, or genies, because they are the one granting the wish, not the balls (which are just containers I guess)

Now, King Piccolo three-shotting Porunga doesn't work in my opinion. Magical power doesn't stack like that, especially not in DB. One wish from Porunga is already stronger, magically, than Shenron's magic. And Porunga still has two more wishes to grant. This is because the earth dragon was created by Kami, who did it without the aid of other namekians and based it on Porunga. But Porunga was made from the namekian people shaving off bits of the Super Dragon Balls directly. It has actually power from the limitless eternal dragon. That should tell us, or at least would make us assume Porunga is strong. At least strong enough to not be bothered with King Piccolo level threat.

[Peypeypeypey]

42 minutes ago, SSJRuss said:

If my understanding is right, yes. He is stated to be stronger. We know this because Porunga can revive those who've died once already and Shenron couldn't do that. Not to mention he brought back nearly the entire namekian race, something I don't know Shenron could do (at that scale and before the Dende buff). And I'm saying Porunga's strength comes from magic (which we've seen in DB) because I don't think it comes from Ki or Divinity (Like Beerus and Whis). That power is his feat and we've seen every new dragon that's introduced to be 'stronger' than the ones the Z fighters have used in the past. The Super Dragon Balls > The Namekian Dragon Balls > The Earth Dragon Balls. This translates to the dragons, or genies, because they are the one granting the wish, not the balls (which are just containers I guess)

Now, King Piccolo three-shotting Porunga doesn't work in my opinion. Magical power doesn't stack like that, especially not in DB. One wish from Porunga is already stronger, magically, than Shenron's magic. And Porunga still has two more wishes to grant. This is because the earth dragon was created by Kami, who did it without the aid of other namekians and based it on Porunga. But Porunga was made from the namekian people shaving off bits of the Super Dragon Balls directly. It has actually power from the limitless eternal dragon. That should tell us, or at least would make us assume Porunga is strong. At least strong enough to not be bothered with King Piccolo level threat.

There's a lot wrong here. First, Porunga didn't bring back the Namekians. Shenron did. How would Porunga bring them all back? If they were all dead, he would be dead too. So I can say for sure that Shenron could do it because Shenron did it. Second, absolutely none of that is a feat, and none of it does anything to inform his strength or durability relative to Shenron. You can say that you personally believe that he wouldn't just be one-shot by King Piccolo, but unless you can show me an actual feat to prove that he's substantially physically stronger and more durable than Shenron, then the closest thing we have to go on is Shenron's durability, which is substantially weaker than the damage Starkiller is dishing out. Again, you can assume he's strong all you want, but that's a relatively baseless assumption that has no real backing to it. There's nothing within the source material to say or imply that Porunga is substantially more powerful than Shenron physically, and even less to say that he could actually do anything in a 1-on-1 fight like this. Porunga was a bad choice for this category in my opinion because he never does anything of his own free will, and the things he does do, he's limited in. He never gets in any fights, and therefore it's impossible to accurately judge how strong he specifically is, but I use King Piccolo as a benchmark because it's literally the only time in the series where the Dragons get physically involved in the fighting (that I can think of), and there's no real reason to assume that Porunga is physically that much different than Shenron. If you have an actual feat to back up your opinion, then great, but you didn't list any while the fight was active or in your previous comment. 

[SSJRuss]

28 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

First, Porunga didn't bring back the Namekians. Shenron did. How would Porunga bring them all back? If they were all dead, he would be dead too. So I can say for sure that Shenron could do it because Shenron did it. 

You're right. That's my bad I forgot Shenron did revive everyone. Still though, doesn't change the fact that he could grant wishes that Shenron couldn't, which was my point.

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Second, absolutely none of that is a feat, and none of it does anything to inform his strength or durability relative to Shenron. You can say that you personally believe that he wouldn't just be one-shot by King Piccolo, but unless you can show me an actual feat to prove that he's substantially physically stronger and more durable than Shenron, then the closest thing we have to go on is Shenron's durability, which is substantially weaker than the damage Starkiller is dishing out. Again, you can assume he's strong all you want, but that's a relatively baseless assumption that has no real backing to it. There's nothing within the source material to say or imply that Porunga is substantially more powerful than Shenron physically, and even less to say that he could actually do anything in a 1-on-1 fight like this. Porunga was a bad choice for this category in my opinion because he never does anything of his own free will, and the things he does do, he's limited in. He never gets in any fights, and therefore it's impossible to accurately judge how strong he specifically is, but I use King Piccolo as a benchmark because it's literally the only time in the series where the Dragons get physically involved in the fighting (that I can think of), and there's no real reason to assume that Porunga is physically that much different than Shenron. If you have an actual feat to back up your opinion, then great, but you didn't list any while the fight was active or in your previous comment. 

Yes, we don't have any physical feats. I'm only using what we know is inferred from their creation/wish granting abilities and judging Porunga by what I could expect he could do, if given the chance. Whether or not Porunga is a good pick for this slot isn't really debatable because he's here already and to be fair I'm judging what he could do in a fight because he's expected to fight for this to even be a match.

Now with all that said, I don't think Starkiller could even beat a creature like Porunga due to his massive size. I know he's fought big creatures before, but something on this scale is a stretch to me.

[Peypeypeypey]

15 minutes ago, SSJRuss said:

You're right. That's my bad I forgot Shenron did revive everyone. Still though, doesn't change the fact that he could grant wishes that Shenron couldn't, which was my point.

Yes, we don't have any physical feats. I'm only using what we know is inferred from their creation/wish granting abilities and judging Porunga by what I could expect he could do, if given the chance. Whether or not Porunga is a good pick for this slot isn't really debatable because he's here already and to be fair I'm judging what he could do in a fight because he's expected to fight for this to even be a match.

Now with all that said, I don't think Starkiller could even beat a creature like Porunga due to his massive size. I know he's fought big creatures before, but something on this scale is a stretch to me.

My point was that you said it was unreasonable for me to use King Piccolo as a frame of reference for Porunga's durability, but it's literally the only thing we could possibly use. Otherwise it is 100% speculative nonsense. You have no feats of durability for Porunga at all, and even as you refuse to accept the King Piccolo scaling, you offer absolutely no other way of determining any of Porunga's physicals while still insisting he would win, which is ridiculous to me. Also, the fact that Starkiller is in this tier means he absolutely has attacks that can kill Porunga, even if you consider him to be orders of magnitude stronger than Shenron. The Vs. Battle Wiki lists him as a planet-level being in terms of both striking power and attack potency, and you have literally no feats to imply that Porunga would survive hits that are that strong. I'm really not trying to dredge this debate out any longer because the votes are already in, but I think it's ridiculous that you continue to argue against my scaling for this dragon dude without offering any other way to scale him while also arguing he would beat people who actually do have defined feats

[SSJRuss]

11 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

My point was that you said it was unreasonable for me to use King Piccolo as a frame of reference for Porunga's durability, but it's literally the only thing we could possibly use.

It is all we can use, but it still doesn't really equate to Porunga. Yes, Shenron and Porunga are very similar but we have no reason to believe they have the same durability. What happens to one doesn't necessarily mean the same would happen to the other, especially when we are told that Porunga is stronger, even if that is only in terms of magic/wish-granting. I can see how you see it as speculative, but to me at least, it would make no sense to me if King Piccolo could just one shot both of them. Would we consider the same would happen to Super Shenron, who is bigger than most planets? That doesn't make logical sense.

22 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

you offer absolutely no other way of determining any of Porunga's physicals while still insisting he would win, which is ridiculous to me.

I have nothing to offer. We don't see the eternal dragons fight. I'm judging his capabilities based on his appearance and magical power in terms of granting wishes. It would be the same for any genie or wish-granter that has no other feats. Like, I assume Genie from Aladdin is pretty strong even though we don't really get physical feats. (I could be wrong on that, but I don't remember from top of my head). Anyway, we have to assume something, otherwise you imply that any average joe could just waltz up to Porunga and kill him, which isn't accurate in my mind.

44 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Also, the fact that Starkiller is in this tier means he absolutely has attacks that can kill Porunga, even if you consider him to be orders of magnitude stronger than Shenron. The Vs. Battle Wiki lists him as a planet-level being in terms of both striking power and attack potency, and you have literally no feats to imply that Porunga would survive hits that are that strong. I'm really not trying to dredge this debate out any longer because the votes are already in, but I think it's ridiculous that you continue to argue against my scaling for this dragon dude without offering any other way to scale him while also arguing he would beat people who actually do have defined feats

I see your point. Though I find it hard to believe, I guess Starkiller could destroy a planet with the Force. I would think the effort would kill him though. The better question here is, do you think Starkiller can beat King Piccolo? If you don't, then by the logic I've stated earlier, Starkiller couldn't beat Porunga either.