Lady Shiva vs Daredevil

[Guest force_echo]

Daredevil wins. Despite being able to keep up with her skill-wise, it comes to brains over brawn as Daredevil out-thinks her for the win.

[Guest Darxeth]

Cool story. Lady Shiva wins, despite being able to hand DD his own ass Skill-wise, the Shiva is more ruthless and more experienced. And in h2h combat, experience helps more so than raw intelligence. I'd like to see DD outsmart her.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Just my opinion but...

 

I think Shiva has a higher level of skill than either DD or Batman. I say this partly because of her size. Shiva is much smaller and weaker than Batman, to compete evenly with him, she'd have to be more skilled. Also, Shiva first appeared in the old Richard Dragon, Kung Fu Fighter comic. She wasn't quite as good as Dragon but it was close, and Dragon really embarrassed Batman when they first met in The Brave and the Bold #132. Bronze Tiger also beat Batman fairly easily and Ben Turner (Tiger's real name) was Dragon's fellow student who regularly fought him to standstills in RDKFF.

 

Now, I think there was some PIS in both the Dragon and Tiger fights because Dc really wanted to put them over. Batman should have done much better than he did. In a fight between Batman and Dragon, or Tiger, or Shiva, I would expect him to win most of the time. Not because he's the better martial artist, but because finding a way to beat foes who are stronger, faster, or more skilled is what he does. Batman would win, but I believe all of these three have higher levels of martial arts skill than he does.

 

Batman might have a slightly higher martial arts skill level than Daredevil. He's certainly studied more different kinds of martial arts. The only things I know of DD learned formally were boxing (Iron Fist comments on this in Contest of Champions vol 1) and ninjutsu under Stick. (BTW, as much as I love Miller's run on the title, I thought that making DD a ninja was one of the stupidest retcons ever. Why take a character who has his own, unique and interesting form of fighting and replace it with a cliched background?) 

 

Anyway, I'd give Batman the edge in pure orthodox skill and DD the edge in pure athleticism. Dragon, Tiger and Shiva would probably be excellent in parkour or rooftop gymnastics but it's not really their thing. Batman would be better than any of them because it's a necessary skill for him and he's focused on it a lot more. Daredevil is even better at this stuff than Batman. He doesn't have a DDmobile or a DDwing to get around in, he's basically doing crazy freerunning all the time to get from place to place. He's also incorporated acrobatics into his combat in a way none of the other characters have. 

 

So, back to the match. DD is bigger and stronger than Shiva but she is the more skilled martial artist. DD is the better acrobat/parkour person. He doesn't just have more training and experience in this area, his senses help him. He can take a blind dive off a roof because he knows what he can grab or land on where a sighted person wouldn't. Not only that but his weapons are designed to increase his mobility. On the rooftop he's going to be in his element and will be the the most elusive, unpredictable foe she's ever faced.

 

In the gym we're more in Shiva's territory, though she's going to find that she can't rely on all the advantages she usually has. She is amazingly good at reading her opponent's body to know what he's going to do before he does it. She will quickly find out that DD can copy that trick in spades. He can hear the shifts in pulse and breathing that come before an attack. He can smell the changes in body chemestry that indicate fatigur or hightening aggression, and he can't be blindsided because he has no blind spot in his radar. Shiva will also find out that DD is as good at hitting pressure points. Many of those are located at or near pulse points, which his hearing can locate precisely.

 

But if Shiva's giving up some of her weapons, DD's giving up a lot more. He relies on his weapons more often than she does. More than that, he relies on using his environment. There aren't the things to jump over and swing from in a dojo, all he can do is tumbling, which isn't really an advantage on a flat floor. Shiva's in her yard here and has a huge number of techniques that work well in a featureless arena. Her diverse background means she's likely to be a lot better at throws and groundwork. DD's acrobatic style usually keeps him as far from that stuff as possible, and neither boxing nor ninjitsu focusses much on it. IMO, in the dojo he will try to stick and run but it won't be easy. She will likely wait until he comits to a leaping attack (DD loved those) and will use a strike or a throw to get him to the ground where she will choke him out or put him him in a submission hold.

 

Round 1: Daredevil

Round 2: Lady Shiva

[Guest Oltobaz]

Great post! Allow me to chime in with a few thoughts:

 

1/ Batman is certainly this guy you'd expect to win against all odds, that's part of what defines him as a character. But then, the same could be said about DD, really, "the Man without fear". He's just as skilled in finding ways to overcome characters more powerful than he is.

 

2/ Thought I'd share this wikia, which might be educational to some people over here. DD isn't as well known as Bats, but he's a force to be reckoned with, if this wikia is any indication. His fighting style blends several

martial arts, not just ninjutsu and boxing. http://marvel.wikia.com/Matthew_Murdock_(Earth-616)

 

3/ His hyper senses combined with his martial prowess are what would allow him to edge out Shiva in areas she wouldn't expect, just as you said. He's certainly better at reading his opponent, hence predicting his/her moves, and has better accuracy as far as pressure points. They're both highly trained in martial arts, but Matt has this unfair advantage, sort of like a natural talent she couldn't hope to match no matter what amount of training.

 

4/ Incidentally, DD has fought against highly talented women in his own universe, such as the Black Widow and Elektra. He's proved their match, as much in combat as in bed He's also defeated many times over Bullseye, the man responsible for Elektra's death in Miller's run. Elektra might be considered the toughest human female martial artist in the whole MU. I think DD would see a lot of Elektra in Shiva. 

[The Void]

Shiva and Elektra are not comparable...

[Guest bigballerju]

Sigh...

Elektra is not comparable to Lady Shiva? Yeah okay...

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Sigh...

 

Elektra is not comparable to Lady Shiva? Yeah okay...

 

Glad you saw reason. 

[Guest Oltobaz]

Ms. Natchios is one of MU's top martial artist. As such, one can compare her to Shiva, one of DC's top martial artist. And, again, DD would see a lot of Elektra in Shiva, skills and personnality wise. He's been there! 

[Guest Incredible Hulk]

Sometimes I think it's best we just stay away from these "who's the most skilled fighter“ type matches.....

[The Void]

Sigh...

 

Elektra is not comparable to Lady Shiva? Yeah okay...

 

 

Please tell me how Elketra is comparable to Shiva. Elketra is a ninja, while Shiva is a skilled martial artist and assassin. Two different things.  Not only that but Shiva is much more ruthless than her and has trained far longer than her. 

 

Also saying that Elketra is Marvels top MA is not even enough. Is Elektra even comparable to Batman? DD will not any similarities between Elektra and Shiva. Both have completely different fighting techniques. Does Elektra know body reading languages that is on the level of Shiva's? The only similarities is that they're females. -__-

[Guest Oltobaz]

Ahem,

 

- Elektra is a ninja, now, what's a ninja? A martial artist and an assassin.

- Elektra is just as ruthless, lethal, tough, you name it, as Shiva. Shiva may have more experience, Elektra has slight precog, psychic ability, chi scream... And talent to boot. Just ask Wolverine, for instance.

- Can Elektra compare to Batman? Most people in this discussion seem to admit DD can compare to Batman. Elektra can certainly compare to DD. I think you've got your answer.

 

- Finally, I mentioned earlier a Batman/DD cross over. While I don't have scans handy, I found this link, outlining several different MU/DC cross overs, this one included. I actually own the comic, and remember how the artists explained both characters had more in common than most, (in Wizard) and how surprising it was there hadn't been more cross overs such as this one. It definitely reflects in the story, and both characters are depicted as equals, and they actually fight, to a standstill, that is. 

 

http://ifanboy.com/articles/dc-histories-batman-intercompany-crossovers/

[The Void]

Ahem,

 

- Elektra is a ninja, now, what's a ninja? A martial artist and an assassin.

Being a Ninja is totally different to being a Martial artist...To my knowledge Ninjas mostly focus on weapons/stealth and use martial arts as a secondary. Elketra mostly uses ninja weapons and sometimes her powers, while Shiva is strictly H2H and focused more on developing it more compared to Elketra.. Elektra hasn't even completed most of her martial arts training. Elektra's training as a ninja wasn't even complete and after being resurrected by the Hand the Chaste rejected her altogether. So how do they compare when coming to H2H?

 

- Elektra is just as ruthless, lethal, tough, you name it, as Shiva. Shiva may have more experience, Elektra has slight precog, psychic ability, chi scream... And talent to boot. Just ask Wolverine, for instance.

The personalities between Shiva and Elketra is so different that its not even funny. Their personalities are DIFFERENT. Elketra is not as ruthless as Shiva. Of course Elektra will have to be ruthless since she is a ninja. While Shiva was actually a villain that wouldn't even mind killing hero's and those close to her. Shiva was stated to be the most dangerous female in the DC universe by many heros/villains, even Batman stated so.

 

And what does psychic ability and chi scream have to do with anything? I'm talking strictly H2H which this fight between Shiva and DD will mostly be about. You guys said Elketra is similar to Shiva, but how??? Their personalities and H2H skills are totally different. Also not only does Shiva have more experience than her, but Shiva is much more wiser and has shown better intelligence. 

 

- Can Elektra compare to Batman? Most people in this discussion seem to admit DD can compare to Batman. Elektra can certainly compare to DD. I think you've got your answer.

Yet those same people can not proof that DD is as skilled as Batman when coming to Martial arts. Again to even say Elektra is comparable to Shiva...You will have to prove Elketra is as skilled as Batman when it comes to MA and that also goes for DD. Not saying DD loses this in a stomp. Because he does have his equipment and radar senses. 

 

How the heck will DD see Shiva as Elektra. When Elketra was love interest for him and he usually tries not to give his all to her.

[Guest bigballerju]

Elektra is not just a ninja she is one of  the best assassins and martial artists on the planet. She has mastered martial arts from China, Japan, Siam, and other martial art training. Read her solo series from years ago and other comics she has been in.  Elektra can control her nervous system, highly skilled in pressure points , lift twice her own body weight, and then there is her mental abilities. Her mental abilities include mind switch, telepathy, silent scream (used by Shang Chi also), precognition, and more. You add in peak human conditioning and other abilities. Elektra has more abilities then Shiva. She is just as skilled or very close to her level.

 

[Dark Spider-man]

This debae is intense!  I'll throw in two cents and don't be all like "oh he's stupid." 

 

DareDevil fought Spider-man to a standstill because his Radar Sense equaled the Spider-sense.  Peter kept trying to hit DD but Matt kept rolling with the punches.  Basically they couldn't hit each other.  Now, after that being said I think he can do that with Shiva cause his Radar Sense is very very sensitive he can hear her fist rushing through the wind like it was a gush of wind, his Radar sense will pinpoint where her next move will be just like she can read movements.  That's just how his Radar Sense works he can basically hear everything around him.  DD isn't a bullet dodger but his Radar Sense can pick up the index finger squeezing the trigger and the bullet sounds like a darn missile launching to him to give him enough time to make it seem like he dodged a bullet.  People people who are skilled can tag him like Cap, Spidey(other times they fought), Logan, Iron Fist, etc can tag him so I am actually with Dinsdale on this.

 

Round 1: DD

Round 2: Shiva

[The Void]

When has it been stated that Elketra is one of the best Martial Artist on the planet? I know she has been stated to be the best Ninja/Assassin. Also what does her mental abilities or any of her abilities besides her H2H skill has to do with anything. I'm not addressing any of those, but her Martial arts/H2H skills. People on this thread said DD will see Elektra as Shiva? How? They are completely different. What does Elketra's mental abilities or peak human abilities have to do with anything? The point is...Is Elketra as skilled as Shiva when coming to H2H. And this fight between Daredevil and Shiva will come down to who is the more skilled H2H fighter and that advantage goes to Shiva. While DD has his equipment and Radar senses for his advantage. And Shiva knows pressure points to and IMO I've seen better PP feats from Shiva.

 

And Shiva masters different techniques yearly...

 

I'll be fair and probably give round one to DD due to his radar senses. 

[Guest Darxeth]

Elektra can compare to Shiva, similar to how Tim Drake can compare to Batman.

 

Honestly, Elektra would get her ass kicked by Shiva, because the latter is too good.

Cassandra Cain could also beat Elektra.

Look, I just named two female martial artists of DC who could take out Marvel's top female martial artist, how about that?

 

Elektra may be the best female martial artists in Marvel but she isn't close to being the best in her universe, Shiva is.

So yes the two are comparable, but they are not equal.

 

Some people forget Shiva can read body movements very well. She can predict incoming attacks, and her most useful skill is probably her insight, which is borderline superhuman.

 

Shiva wins 6/10 the first setup, 7/10 the second.

[Guest Oltobaz]

1/ Elektra is versed in several different styles, her primarily style being, well, Ninjutsu. She's, like, a ninja..

2/ She was always an antihero, and was considered a villain, at times. She's just as ruthless..

3/ She hasn't completed her training with Stick, but that was fixed, thanks to the Hand. She's part Chaste, part Hand, if you will. She's got massive amount of training in martial arts, and is always portrayed as a natural gifted individual on top of that training. She's special.

4/ You may not realize it, but your examples aren't so good. I never implied they were 100 % similar, but:

 

-Elektra is widely considered the most dangerous human female artist in the MU universe, just like Shiva in her own. I thought I had already made this point.

-They're neither hero nor villain, really. They're lethal, dangerous and skilled, and have that zen wisdom quality. They definitely have more in common than you seem to realize.

 

5/ People can't prove DD is as skilled as Bats, just like people can't prove the opposite, mind you, still, the cross overs in print and the creative people behind would seem to agree with me, and other people in this discussion. Bottom line, they're even.

 

6/ Elektra's special abilities such as a chi scream can be boiled down to techniques, since that's what they are, strictly speaking, like Iron's Fist's..iron fist, duh. These techniques she mastered, Shiva didn't, and I'm not aware of anything equivalent she might have mastered. Since these can be useful in combat, Elektra could certainly rely on those at any time. Think of it as an unfair advantage, just like DD's hyper senses... on top of her super martial prowess, of course.

[Guest Darxeth]

Elektra has more abilities then Shiva. She is just as skilled or very close to her level.

 

 

lol! Funniest thing I've seen all day.

[Guest bigballerju]

I never said she was the best on the planet Stranglehold. I said she is one of the best. What do mental abilities have to do with anything? You brought up Shiva's body reading ability so of course people are going to mention all of Elektra's abilities that surpass that particular ability. Also one once again Elektra with her mental abilities can do way more then predict people's movements.

 

Elektra can compare to Shiva, similar to how Tim Drake can compare to Batman.

Honestly, Elektra would get her ass kicked by Shiva, because the latter is too good.
Cassandra Cain could also beat Elektra.
Look, I just named two female martial artists of DC who could take out Marvel's top female martial artist, how about that?

Elektra may be the best female martial artists in Marvel but she isn't close to being the best in her universe, Shiva is.
So yes the two are comparable, but they are not equal.

Some people forget Shiva can read body movements very well. She can predict incoming attacks, and her most useful skill is probably her insight, which is borderline superhuman.

Shiva wins 6/10 the first setup, 7/10 the second.

 

Read my earlier posts about Elektra's mental abilities. Shiva's body reading movements and predicting attacks are useless against Elektra who has way more mental abilities.

 

lol! Funniest thing I've seen all day.

 

You want to know what else is funny? You not proving Lady Shiva has more abilities then Elektra or that Elektra isn't close to Lady Shiva's level at least.

 

I'll give you this Elektra isn't on Lady Shiva's level but she is close.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

Hypnosis: Elektra has demonstrated the ability to mesmerize others, and as such make them see illusions or other phenomena.

Mind Switch: Elektra's strangest gift is her ability to “throw†her mind into those of others. For instance, she was able to track down her enemy, Ken Wind, by temporarily “borrowing†people's minds and acting through them while she hunted around for her prey.

 

Discern Target: This temporal mind control enables her to literally sniff out the psyche, or intent, of her targets. It saw extensive use during Elektra: Assassin, in which she was heavily reliant on only her ninja powers. It is unknown how long the effect lasts, but Elektra has gone a full two days or more in another person's mind while they zoned out in hers.

Discern Location: This “mind jump†ability might explain why Elektra is always a step ahead of her competition, or seems to know where her target is at all times. An extreme example would be the time she murdered an ambassador in South America. The man was sitting against the wall when Elektra sought out his mind and trusted her katana to enter his heart in the perfect spot. Unerringly, it did: the sword pierced through thick walling and the politician was slain where he sat. The unusual addition of her telepathic skills makes Elektra an omnipresent assassin, to say the least.

Telekinesis: Elektra has demonstrated telekinetic abilities.[citation needed]

Telepathic Communication: She can communicate telepathically with individuals possessing similar levels of mental discipline, such as the Chaste.

 

Precognition: She can have some precognitive visions, and see Glimpse of future events[citation needed]

 

Mind Shield: Elektra has Demonstrated an ability to remain hidden and undetected by other Telepaths. By using a Telepathic technique that she learned during her time with the hand, Elektra can create a mental shield around her mind keeping herself hidden from not only other psychics but mind locating machines like Cerebro.

 

Silent Scream: A high powered Chi based Scream Originally used by Shang-Chi, By focusing on her Chi and puckering her lips together Elektra can use this technique to perform a High pitched scream that can render a person Permanently deaf, and/or by furthering focusing on one target can kill.

 

Uh, correct me if I'm missing something, but how, exactly, would Shiva counter the above? I think Shiva is more skilled than Elektra, but the latter has too many abilities to throw her off.

[Guest Darxeth]

It's the quality of the abilities that matter, not the quantity.

Shiva is superior to Elektra and DD skillwise and she is more insightful, ruthless, wise, and experienced.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

And none of that will help when she gets mindblasted into unconsciousness or worse.

[The Void]

1/ Elektra is versed in several different styles, her primarily style being, well, Ninjutsu. She's, like, a ninja..

yeah that was my point....

 

2/ She was always an antihero, and was considered a villain, at times. She's just as ruthless..

3/ She hasn't completed her training with Stick, but that was fixed, thanks to the Hand. She's part Chaste, part Hand, if you will. She's got massive amount of training in martial arts, and is always portrayed as a natural gifted individual on top of that training. She's special.

4/ You may not realize it, but your examples aren't so good. I never implied they were 100 % similar, but:

1. Personality wise they are different.

2. Again the Hand is a Ninja group. Elketra has mostly developed her skills on being a Ninja and dealing with weapons such a sai's. When fighting Elektra mostly uses them. Blade is a skilled martial artist, but he is not the best and he mostly developed his skills on swordsmanship. The same is said for Elektra and her ninja skills/weapons. Where Shiva put most her effort on development her H2H skills. And training top DC martial artists like Bruce Wayne and Cassandra Cain.

3. You never went in details. You said DD will see Shiva as Elektra? How? When Elketra was considered a love interest for DD and he has held back against her.

 

-Elektra is widely considered the most dangerous human female artist in the MU universe, just like Shiva in her own. I believe I had already made this point.

When?

 

I can post scans on multiple people saying Shiva is the most dangerous female on the planet.

 

-They're neither hero nor villain, really. They're lethal, dangerous and skilled, and have that zen wisdom quality. They definitely have more in common than you seem to realize.

Elektra for the most part has been a anti-hero. While Shiva has most the time been a full blown villain. Their personalities are different. Shiva is wiser, more experienced and more intelligent. I just want you to tell me how much do they have in common.

 

5/ People can't prove DD is as skilled as Bats, just like people can't prove the opposite, mind you, still, the cross overs in print and the creative people behind would seem to agree with me, and other people in this discussion. Bottom line, they're even.

 

How exactly? You people never state how exactly are they even. In  what...? Fighting skills? Intelligence? Tactics? Equipment?

[Guest Oltobaz]

In relation do Darxeth's last post

 

This statement isn't convincing. It is some sort of mantra? Me, I'm just comparing Natchios and Shiva.. and I think the former would win, due to the quantity AND superior quality of her various martial abilities.

[The Void]

I never said she was the best on the planet Stranglehold. I said she is one of the best. What do mental abilities have to do with anything? You brought up Shiva's body reading ability so of course people are going to mention all of Elektra's abilities that surpass that particular ability. Also one once again Elektra with her mental abilities can do way more then predict people's movements.

 

First of...Body reading language is not a mental abilitie. I get where you're coming from, but I am ONLY addressing if Elektras H2H skills are on par with Shiva's. Because this fight between Daredevil and Lady Shiva will come down to who is the best H2H fighter. And people claimed that Daredevil will see Shiva as Elektra. So I am asking who is Elketra on par with Shiva when coming to pure H2H skill. I don't care about any other of Elketra's abilities. They are irrelevant to me. Shiva's body reading language is a part of her fighting skill.

 

As for best Martial artist on the planet. I know what you meant. But has Elektra even stalemated with people such as Iron Fist or Shang Chi? Who are the best on  Marvel Earth. The most skilled fighter Elektra has beaten was Taskmaster and her win had nothing to do with skill. Meanwhile she has struggled with people such as Hawkeye(Bullseye). Who is not even on the list of Marvels top fighters.