The Batman Vs. The Punisher. Winner Takes All!

[Guest thanosisawesome]

I lean slightly toward Batman, not because of any bullet-dodging but because he'll be using stealth and deception the whole time to keep Castle from having a legitimate target. Showing himself to a skilled gunman like Punisher would be tantamont to suicide.

 

Here's a little on the physics of "bullet timing."

 

Ammunition Muzzle Velocity At 10' At 25' At 100' At 300'

9mm Parabellum (Uzi Submachine gun) 1300 ft/sec 0.007 sec 0.019 sec 0.076 sec 0.23 sec

.357 Magnum (.357 Colt Python) 1600 ft/sec 0.0076 sec 0.015 sec 0.06 sec 0.19 sec

5.56×45mm NATO (M-16 Rifle) 3100 ft/sec 0.003 sec 0.008 sec 0.03 sec 0.09 sec

 

I used 2 common handgun rounds and one common assault rifle round that are fairly representative of what Batman has to face.

 

The discipline of Mental chronometry shows that the fastest possible human reaction time is 330 miliseconds. In other words, the human body starts to act 0.33 seconds after you see the gun firing. Let's give Batman the benefit of the doubt and say that he can react a little faster than humanly possible at 0.25 sec.

 

The world's fastest man, Usain Bolt, can move his body at about 41 ft/sec (28 mph). It is theoretically possible to move at 59 ft/sec (40 mph.) If we allow Batman this higher theoretical speed, and say that he has to move just 8" to twist his body out of the path of the bullet, it will take him foot to better this 28 mph he could do it in 0.013 seconds.

 

So, the time it would take Batman to get out of the path of a bullet from the moment he sees it would be 0.25 + 0.013 = 0.263 seconds. These are ideal conditions and give Batman both better reflexes and higher body speed than has ever been recorded for any human being.

 

Plug that into our table of ammunition and we get this:

 

 

Can Batman dodge 9mm Parabellum bullets at 300'? No, it would hit him 0.03 seconds before his nervous system could process the image of the gun firing and tell his body to move. Since this is the slowest bullet at the greatest range, I won't go into the others. The bottom line is that you have to be MUCH faster than it is possible for a human being to be to have even a chance.

 

Unless we say that Batman (or Daredevil, or Nightwing, or Snake Eyes or anyone else who gets touted as a "bullet timer") has genuinely superhuman speed and reflexes (as in at least 10 times faster than the best human athlete) the idea of dodging a bullet after it's been fired is humanly impossible. It makes for a fun scene, but IMO should be taken as the writer or artist having fun and not meant to be evidence.

 

Can Spiderman or Deathstroke dodge bullets? Could be, it depends on how fast their reflex time is and I don't have any data on that. Can Flash or Wonder Woman? Sure. Can Iron Fist? Yes, but only when he uses his power to speed his reflexes to superhuman levels.

 

It's a comic.

[C.T.]

Exactly, which is why Punisher wins thanos.

[The Void]

I lean slightly toward Batman, not because of any bullet-dodging but because he'll be using stealth and deception the whole time to keep Castle from having a legitimate target. Showing himself to a skilled gunman like Punisher would be tantamont to suicide.

 

Here's a little on the physics of "bullet timing."

 

Ammunition Muzzle Velocity At 10' At 25' At 100' At 300'

9mm Parabellum (Uzi Submachine gun) 1300 ft/sec 0.007 sec 0.019 sec 0.076 sec 0.23 sec

.357 Magnum (.357 Colt Python) 1600 ft/sec 0.0076 sec 0.015 sec 0.06 sec 0.19 sec

5.56×45mm NATO (M-16 Rifle) 3100 ft/sec 0.003 sec 0.008 sec 0.03 sec 0.09 sec

 

I used 2 common handgun rounds and one common assault rifle round that are fairly representative of what Batman has to face.

 

The discipline of Mental chronometry shows that the fastest possible human reaction time is 330 miliseconds. In other words, the human body starts to act 0.33 seconds after you see the gun firing. Let's give Batman the benefit of the doubt and say that he can react a little faster than humanly possible at 0.25 sec.

 

The world's fastest man, Usain Bolt, can move his body at about 41 ft/sec (28 mph). It is theoretically possible to move at 59 ft/sec (40 mph.) If we allow Batman this higher theoretical speed, and say that he has to move just 8" to twist his body out of the path of the bullet, it will take him foot to better this 28 mph he could do it in 0.013 seconds.

 

So, the time it would take Batman to get out of the path of a bullet from the moment he sees it would be 0.25 + 0.013 = 0.263 seconds. These are ideal conditions and give Batman both better reflexes and higher body speed than has ever been recorded for any human being.

 

Plug that into our table of ammunition and we get this:

 

 

Can Batman dodge 9mm Parabellum bullets at 300'? No, it would hit him 0.03 seconds before his nervous system could process the image of the gun firing and tell his body to move. Since this is the slowest bullet at the greatest range, I won't go into the others. The bottom line is that you have to be MUCH faster than it is possible for a human being to be to have even a chance.

 

Unless we say that Batman (or Daredevil, or Nightwing, or Snake Eyes or anyone else who gets touted as a "bullet timer") has genuinely superhuman speed and reflexes (as in at least 10 times faster than the best human athlete) the idea of dodging a bullet after it's been fired is humanly impossible. It makes for a fun scene, but IMO should be taken as the writer or artist having fun and not meant to be evidence.

 

Can Spiderman or Deathstroke dodge bullets? Could be, it depends on how fast their reflex time is and I don't have any data on that. Can Flash or Wonder Woman? Sure. Can Iron Fist? Yes, but only when he uses his power to speed his reflexes to superhuman levels.

 

I don't believe comics go by real life logic. And I know this is pretty much irrelevant but Batman has trained his body to peak human by doing the most insane things by like trying to breath in space. Just saying, I know it is irrelevant.

[The Void]

Also how do you guys like this match? Do you think I made it even?

[Guest bigballerju]

Yea its a even fight regardless of characters like Batman being a fan favorite and people forgetting there are a lot of characters just as good as him.

[xLEGACYx]

Well everyone using Punisher's weapons as his advantage are just plain wrong. Punisher can not use any explosive that Batman has not encountered or used himself. While Punisher is good at traps, look at the people that set traps all the time that are considered just as smart as Bats. (Joker, Riddler, Bane, Ra's, Deathstroke, etc.)

 

Punisher is essentially a hero version of Deathstroke or Bane with no venom. Bane and Deathstroke are just as smart and skilled in all things Punisher is. As far as Bane goes, Batman routinely beats him unless Bane prepares for months. Deathstroke only wins due to his superior physical attributes and he uses 9 times more brain power with just as much training as Punisher.

 

It would not be easy by no means but Batman would win.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Exactly, which is why Punisher wins thanos.

 

How does that make Punisher win?

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

I think it's a good match (the Batcave in Brazil made be chuckle) and I don't want to ruin anyone's enjoyment of Batman by adding real world logic to the discussion. I thought the scene in the Keaton movie where Batman parried a bullet was fun. I don't mind the writers or the artists pushing what's realistic sometimes, if it's done to create a really cool scene. I don't like it when it's clearly a writer who is too lazy to come up with a more realistic way for Batman to win a fight, but that's a different conversation.

 

So when it's a matter of enjoying the story, yeah, it's just a comic.

 

But when it comes to a debate, I don't think that carries much weight. We're trying to make points here. That doesn't work if you dismiss logic and the facts of how the world works. There's nothing logical about picking and choosing only the arguments that favor your position and dismissing the ones that don't.

[The Void]

I think it's a good match (the Batcave in Brazil made be chuckle) and I don't want to ruin anyone's enjoyment of Batman by adding real world logic to the discussion. I thought the scene in the Keaton movie where Batman parried a bullet was fun. I don't mind the writers or the artists pushing what's realistic sometimes, if it's done to create a really cool scene. I don't like it when it's clearly a writer who is too lazy to come up with a more realistic way for Batman to win a fight, but that's a different conversation.

 

So when it's a matter of enjoying the story, yeah, it's just a comic.

 

But when it comes to a debate, I don't think that carries much weight. We're trying to make points here. That doesn't work if you dismiss logic and the facts of how the world works. There's nothing logical about picking and choosing only the arguments that favor your position and dismissing the ones that don't.

 

Thanks and I now fully understand your point.

[treacherous]

I think it's a good match (the Batcave in Brazil made be chuckle) and I don't want to ruin anyone's enjoyment of Batman by adding real world logic to the discussion. I thought the scene in the Keaton movie where Batman parried a bullet was fun. I don't mind the writers or the artists pushing what's realistic sometimes, if it's done to create a really cool scene. I don't like it when it's clearly a writer who is too lazy to come up with a more realistic way for Batman to win a fight, but that's a different conversation.

 

So when it's a matter of enjoying the story, yeah, it's just a comic.

 

But when it comes to a debate, I don't think that carries much weight. We're trying to make points here. That doesn't work if you dismiss logic and the facts of how the world works. There's nothing logical about picking and choosing only the arguments that favor your position and dismissing the ones that don't.

 

I freakin like this guy.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

FWIW, I think Treacherous said it best so far. Here are my thoughts, which have mostly been expressed by others.

- At long range the Punisher is extremely dangerous. Batman has to find a way to close the distance or he will be killed.

- Batman's advantage at long range is that he is smart, unpredictable, and extremely stealthy. He is too smart to try to close the distance while he's a target.

- If Punisher gets a bead on Batman at long range, the odds favor him. Batman can do broken field running and use cover, but if he doesn't find a way to vanish the odds against him are ridiculous. (Something like a flashbomb or a smoke grenade to obscure Punisher's vision while he slips away are probably his best bets.

- Getting close to Punisher is dangerous because of booby traps. These will be well prepared and hard to spot, even for Batman. IMO, if he has enough time, he can find and disarm them all, but if he's having to dodge bullets at the same time, Punisher has a big advantage.

- Once the fight comes to throwing range, the odds get a lot better for Batman. Regular batarangs aren't a match for a deadly marksman with firearms, but explosive batarangs will make a big difference.

- If Batman can get to hand to hand range, the odds shift to his favor. At this range he's not fighting Punisher's fight any longer.

 

And that last is kind of the point. Neither man wants to fight the other where he is strongest. Batman needs to plan to get in close fast. Punisher wants to keep Batman at long range for as long as possible. Batman wants to use stealth, and keep Punisher waithing and (hopefully) getting frustrated. Punisher wants to keep up the pressure and force Batman to make so many quick decisions that he makes a mistake.

 

I think this set up, with the guys starting face to face puts the odds in Punisher's favor. Batman has to cover a lot of ground to get into the range he wants. Despite this, I think Batman's stealth skills can manage it. Since punisher is probably setting up to snipe and guarding himself with traps, Batman should avoid going after him. He can blow up his van and harass him until he draws him out. If Batman can make Punisher come to him, he wins this.

[C.T.]

 

 

How does that make Punisher win?

 

Punisher easily does the more ridiculous stuff, duh.

[Guest bigballerju]

Good analysis Dinsdale and I agree with it. Keep in mind Punisher has fought Winter Soldier, Daredevil, Bullseye, Spiderman, and others in H2H combat. He would do well but true in close combat Batman has the advantages. In addition taunting may not work with Punisher too much. Batman doesn't have much to taunt Punisher with while Batman on the other hand does. If anything Punisher could taunt Batman and bring him closer to him. Punisher could taunt Batman with the fact he is going to go to Gotham and kill every scum there to piss off Batman. He could start taunting Batman with all of that and how he will kill every criminal in Brazil. Batman would get pissed and let anger take over him. Taunting Batman has worked before. Joker and other villains have proven that.

 

Oh and Legacy Batman doesn't have the experience or skill Punisher has with explosives. So yes Punisher would use explosives on Batman he has never encountered and won't see coming. Hell Joker and other villains catch Batman off guard all the time with explosives. They aren't even close to the skill Punisher with explosives, weapons, strategy, tactics, prep time and more has.

[The Void]

[C.T.]

*vulgarity* off Michael Jackson gif.

 

PS: I still miss you and your good songs but the gif still needs to die.

[The Void]

*vulgarity* off Michael Jackson gif.

 

PS: I still miss you and your good songs but the gif still needs to die.

 

But that's my favorite gif...

 

Especially with situations like this.

[Guest force_echo]

Batman's not getting close. His stealth is being overrated, especially against Punisher's own stealth and, more importantly, equipment. Punisher has the advantage the vast majority of the fight. Even if Batman gets close he has to contend with Punisher's shotgun abilities, which are nearly impossible to dodge. The Punisher is not going to be drawn out wherever Batman wants him. He's patient, calculating, and he knows he has the advantage.

[Guest bigballerju]

Yup and Punisher could keep Batman moving with a couple of blasts from his rocket launcher. Batman won't be staying in one place. Punisher with prep is dangerous as hell because that means he has had prep to gather intel weapons, gadgets, and equipment of all sorts. Punisher has been known to have contacts to in getting all sorts of gear when he needs it. Batman is facing someone on his level who won't hold back and first chance he gets will go for the kill. Punisher could sit back from a distance and just create traps all around him. Then he could simply wait for as long as possible until Batman decides to make his move. Batman in this scene knowing his character is the one to go in for close combat because he won't have any long ranged weapons to hit Punisher with.. His batrangs and usually gear won't do it here. Punisher has taken a ass-kicking from super-powered beings. Batman is gone need a lot more to bring him down. Also hiding is useless as Punisher will have night goggles and all sorts of equipment.

[xLEGACYx]

Only problem with this is everyone is saying Batman cant beat Punisher's explosive and gun skills. Thats all Batman has ever done. Also show an example of something Punisher can do that Batman hasn't countered to the same or a greater degree.

 

Saying his stealth wont be enough is underestimating him. I cite Batman hiding from the league for an hour in the watchtower. PIS or not, he did it.

 

Disappears, while weakened while right in front of Bane. This is Bane that is super strong and super smart from the New 52

 

Disappears from Flash

 

 

 

Also, no one has really talked much about what batman can do with the prep and a remote batcave. He would not have his most exotic gadgets but still his standard stuff. The batmobile, various types of suits, any hand held weapon he normally uses, and various neurotoxins ( fear gas, knockout gas, etc)

 

While yes Batman would have to get close, he can easily avoid castle long enough to do that.

[treacherous]

Yeah Batman's stealth is nigh unmatched. This is the guy who disappears while you are looking at him.

 

Again, If avoiding getting shot was first on Batman's training, avoiding detection was third, actual detective work was second.

 

This is what the guy does best. Better than anybody.

 

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Also hiding is useless as Punisher will have night goggles and all sorts of equipment.

 

This is an exaggeration. Punisher's equipment will make it harder to hide from him, but there are ways to beat night vision equipment, infra red, and pretty much any kind of detection equipment.

 

It will not be easy for Batman to sneak up on the Punisher and it will not be easy for the Punisher to spot Batman. The conflict is going to push both of them to their limits and it's not a sure thing for either of them.

 

I'd say Batman wins this set up 6 times out of 10.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Batman's not getting close. His stealth is being overrated, especially against Punisher's own stealth and, more importantly, equipment. Punisher has the advantage the vast majority of the fight. Even if Batman gets close he has to contend with Punisher's shotgun abilities, which are nearly impossible to dodge. The Punisher is not going to be drawn out wherever Batman wants him. He's patient, calculating, and he knows he has the advantage.

 

Why? He could sneak up on Castle. And since Batman is fighting someone who is a gun nut, he's going to be wearing heavier armor than usual. When Batman gets close, Frank would be disarmed and beaten to a pulp. Batman may take some rounds (doubt it) but as I stated, he will be wearing armor that offers significant protection from ballistics.

[C.T.]

 

A good example of overcoming not one, not two, but three physically superior combatants, two of which are better at close up fights then Punisher and one of which is much more experienced, with the ability of preparation.

[C.T.]

 

By Castle's own words, trying to shoot a speedster(Burnout) was like trying to shoot an F-16 moving at Mach 2 with a peagun.

 

Next panel, direct shot to the shoulder after tactical revising. Or the time he shot Spider Man's webshooters off clean.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

 

A good example of overcoming not one, not two, but three physically superior combatants, two of which are better at close up fights then Punisher and one of which is much more experienced, with the ability of preparation.

 

This happened because A) Castle got the drop on his three opponents, because Spider-Man didn't fight smart( a mistake Batman wouldn't make) and because apparently Daredevil had a seizure when he was attacked, or temporarily forgot his training.

 

 

 

By Castle's own words, trying to shoot a speedster(Burnout) was like trying to shoot an F-16 moving at Mach 2 with a peagun.

 

Next panel, direct shot to the shoulder after tactical revising. Or the time he shot Spider Man's webshooters off clean.

 

This is very impressive. But A) Batman is wearing armor, and from the scans I provided, Batman is more than capable of avoiding Castles shots, especially since he blocked sub-machine gun fire with his arm.

 

Now here are a couple of Batman's good showings.

 

batvsninmanbats.jpg

 

 

detective7-batvsgothamsuperogues1.jpg

detective7-batvsgothamsuperogues2.jpg

detective7-batvsgothamsuperogues3.jpg

 

thedarknight3-forbes.jpg