The Batman Vs. The Punisher. Winner Takes All!

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

I'm going to move my response to Hayes' post in the ridiculous claims thread here.

 

Red Hood is not as tactically adept or skilled as the Punisher is. Even then, Batman couldn't take him head on head with his firearms. Neither could Nightwing or Tim Drake. Also, Batman uses stealth and tactics to beat Punisher. The Punisher isn't stupid, he's not going to be able to do that. 'Specially since Punisher has, you know, night vision/infrared goggles and the like.

 

Besides, Deadshot has beaten Batman twice, even though he pulls his shots for Batman because he doesn't usually kill outside his contract. The times Batman has beaten Deadshot, it's usually been Batman freezing his bank accounts, or publicly exposing his plot to be the king of the underworld.

 

Now granted, in a scenario with prep, Punisher might be pulling his shots too, he doesn't kill "heroes". Usually.

The point I was making about Deadshot, Red Hood, KGBeast, etc. is that Batman faces heavily skilled enemies in the fire arm department all the time. You were making it seem like "lol Batman is a guy in a costume, Frank has big guns", which case Batman faces Punisher level threats all the time and wins.

 

I am not even arguing Batman wins here, again I was refuting the fact that Punisher doesn't win simply because he uses guns.

[The Void]

100 feet...

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Tell that to The Joker.

 

Batman doesn't let him walk away. He breaks every bone in his body and throws his ass in jail. Which is exactly what he will do to Punisher.

 

 

Wow. Hayes, how about you actually read the comics you're taking scans from?

 

In the first scan, that's not Batman dodging the bullet, that's Deadshot pulling the shot so he doesn't kill Batman.

 

In the second, that's a hologram, not Batman.

 

Who is that? Black Mask? Not a very notorious marksman, even when he's not trying to fire a rifle on full auto with one hand.

 

Batman can not dodge bullets.

 

Wow, you really haven't read a Batman book.

 

 

detective526-batsilenced2.jpg

 

batconfidential15-batwrathgun2.jpg

 

004.jpg

[Guest force_echo]

No, it's not. Deadshot says later that he pulls his shots because he doesn't kill outside of his contracts, making him either hesitate or pull his shots in every encounter with Batman. In his run on Suicide Squad, it's clearly stated that Deadshot has never been able to kill Batman because he reminds Deadshot of his brother.

 

You see all that smoke where Batman just was? That's not all from Deadshot's gun. Also, a couple panel later he's seen in a completely different place, telling Alfred to turn off the hologram projector.

 

Well he obviously doesn't make the shot. Punisher would. Honestly, flipping doesn't make you bulletproof. Besides that, Black Mask is in a heavily stressed condition, sure, he's marginally experienced (even though he's had no formal training whatsoever), but he's not a soldier, he's going to be shooting wildly at Batman. Punisher isn't.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

No, it's not. Deadshot says later that he pulls his shots because he doesn't kill outside of his contracts, making him either hesitate or pull his shots in every encounter with Batman. In his run on Suicide Squad, it's clearly stated that Deadshot has never been able to kill Batman because he reminds Deadshot of his brother.

 

You see all that smoke where Batman just was? That's not all from Deadshot's gun. Also, a couple panel later he's seen in a completely different place, telling Alfred to turn off the hologram projector.

 

Well he obviously doesn't make the shot. Punisher would. Honestly, flipping doesn't make you bulletproof. Besides that, Black Mask is in a heavily stressed condition, sure, he's marginally experienced (even though he's had no formal training whatsoever), but he's not a soldier, he's going to be shooting wildly at Batman. Punisher isn't.

 

I don't know if I'm posting to fast, or if you have no response to my posts.

[Guest force_echo]

Batman doesn't let him walk away. He breaks every bone in his body and throws his ass in jail. Which is exactly what he will do to Punisher.

 

 

 

 

Wow, you really haven't read a Batman book.

 

 

detective526-batsilenced2.jpg

 

batconfidential15-batwrathgun2.jpg

 

004.jpg

What? None of those scans prove that Batman can actually dodge bullets, since he's not dodging bullets after they fire. Those are instances of bad aim. In the first one, you see the bullet marks moving from left to right, even though Batman is dodging up to down. What? In the second one, the guy's not aiming at all, a normal person could survive that if they move fast and are extremely lucky. In the third one, the guy misses, as he hits Batman's gloves (by the way, if that was the kind of round Punisher fires, it would have went through his hand).

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Batman doesn't let him walk away. He breaks every bone in his body and throws his ass in jail. Which is exactly what he will do to Punisher.

o rly?

No, it's not. Deadshot says later that he pulls his shots because he doesn't kill outside of his contracts, making him either hesitate or pull his shots in every encounter with Batman. In his run on Suicide Squad, it's clearly stated that Deadshot has never been able to kill Batman because he reminds Deadshot of his brother.

 

You see all that smoke where Batman just was? That's not all from Deadshot's gun. Also, a couple panel later he's seen in a completely different place, telling Alfred to turn off the hologram projector.

 

Well he obviously doesn't make the shot. Punisher would. Honestly, flipping doesn't make you bulletproof. Besides that, Black Mask is in a heavily stressed condition, sure, he's marginally experienced (even though he's had no formal training whatsoever), but he's not a soldier, he's going to be shooting wildly at Batman. Punisher isn't.

Deadshot later gets over that mental barrier, and doesn't hold back against the Bat.

 

Conceded.

 

Idk about shooting wildly, the shots are just above Batman's head(because Batman moved) and look at how close the grouping is.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

What? None of those scans prove that Batman can actually dodge bullets, since he's not dodging bullets after they fire. Those are instances of bad aim. In the first one, you see the bullet marks moving from left to right, even though Batman is dodging up to down. What? In the second one, the guy's not aiming at all, a normal person could survive that if they move fast and are extremely lucky. In the third one, the guy misses, as he hits Batman's gloves (by the way, if that was the kind of round Punisher fires, it would have went through his hand).

 

If Batman can block a bullet, he can dodge one. If a normal person "moves fast" they won't get killed by a mini-gun? What the hell? And in the scan right before the first one, a the gun is held inches from Batmans head and the trigger pulled. And honestly, Batman's not going to be standing in the open catching bullets. He's going to be taking cover, using stealth, and throwing batarangs far too fast for Punisher to dodge. He will then jump Punisher using smoke pellets or knockout gas and knock him out.

[Guest force_echo]

Deadshot later gets over that mental barrier, and doesn't hold back against the Bat.

 

Conceded.

 

Idk about shooting wildly, the shots are just above Batman's head(because Batman moved) and look at how close the grouping is.

Where does he say this? And when does he fight Batman after saying this?

 

It's not a very close grouping at all, and the shots move left to right even though Batman's not moving that way, indicating he's firing erratically.

[Guest force_echo]

If Batman can block a bullet, he can dodge one. If a normal person "moves fast" they won't get killed by a mini-gun? What the hell? And in the scan right before the first one, a the gun is held inches from Batmans head and the trigger pulled. And honestly, Batman's not going to be standing in the open catching bullets. He's going to be taking cover, using stealth, and throwing batarangs far too fast for Punisher to dodge. He will then jump Punisher using smoke pellets or knockout gas and knock him out.

He can't block a bullet. Yes, if the person firing the minigun doesn't give a damn about aiming and just relies on the insane firing capacity to take the target out, then yes, a very lucky person booking it could dodge it. Really? Post it then, I would love to see Batman dodging a point blank bullet. The OP indicates that they are going to be starting in the open, in which case Punisher could just shoot him.

 

Oh yeah, Batman takes cover, he "uses stealth" I forgot that makes him invincible. Punisher's bullets could chew up most of the cover he's hiding behind, and Punisher has equipment to negate Batman's stealth. Besides, Punisher could take cover and "use stealth" as well. He's not going to be able to get close to Punisher, and it's not like Punisher's going to be standing out in the open firing full auto waiting for Batman to try something.

 

Knockout gas? Gas mask. Besides, Punisher has similar, lethal equipment. Take your gas grenade and raise you a frag.

[treacherous]

Batman has taken on guerilla type fighters, ninjas and the like before, but I can't of many as resourceful as Punisher. He lays traps within traps. Stuff you jus can't prepare for.

 

Example: this is a guy who, when he ran out of weapons, ran into a zoo, found a bear den, punched a bear in the face, enraging it, jumped the fence and left the bear enraged to kill the incoming gangsters that were tracking him. The said gangsters were decapitated when they unwittingly followed him into the den. Not saying this trap would work on Batman, just saying this a very resourceful man who thinks on the fly like nobody. He did similar resourceful moves to Wolverine. Even up close, Batman has a hard earned win. A win, but a hard earned win.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Justice League issue 1, dodging machine gun fire from a helicopter while chasing a para demon.

[treacherous]

...and there is no way that a guy who fights the criminal element that Batman fights didn't put "Dodge Bullets" on the first of his ninja, samurai, military training to-do list.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Worst come to worse, he has his new suit built into the batmobile

 

IronBat

[Guest thanosisawesome]

He can't block a bullet. Yes, if the person firing the minigun doesn't give a damn about aiming and just relies on the insane firing capacity to take the target out, then yes, a very lucky person booking it could dodge it. Really? Post it then, I would love to see Batman dodging a point blank bullet. The OP indicates that they are going to be starting in the open, in which case Punisher could just shoot him.

 

Oh yeah, Batman takes cover, he "uses stealth" I forgot that makes him invincible. Punisher's bullets could chew up most of the cover he's hiding behind, and Punisher has equipment to negate Batman's stealth. Besides, Punisher could take cover and "use stealth" as well. He's not going to be able to get close to Punisher, and it's not like Punisher's going to be standing out in the open firing full auto waiting for Batman to try something.

 

Knockout gas? Gas mask. Besides, Punisher has similar, lethal equipment. Take your gas grenade and raise you a frag.

 

Did you see the damn scan I posted where Batman blocks a bullet? First off, you're are assuming that Wrath wasn't aiming the minigun. Second off, you've clearly run out of arguments if you say a normal shmuck could dodge minigun fire. Oh, and here's the scan.

 

detective526-batsilenced1.jpg

 

Not if he doesn't know where he is. Batman disappears into the maze of favelas. He will then be able to ambush Punisher, or at least nail him with a batarang. Punisher is not nearly agile enough to dodge such a weapon.

[Guest force_echo]

Did you see the damn scan I posted where Batman blocks a bullet? First off, you're are assuming that Wrath wasn't aiming the minigun. Second off, you've clearly run out of arguments if you say a normal shmuck could dodge minigun fire. Oh, and here's the scan.

 

detective526-batsilenced1.jpg

 

Not if he doesn't know where he is. Batman disappears into the maze of favelas. He will then be able to ambush Punisher, or at least nail him with a batarang. Punisher is not nearly agile enough to dodge such a weapon.

No, I saw a scan where a guy misses the body shot and hits his glove, if that's what you mean. He explicitly states that he's letting the rapid fire rate take care of Batman, and if you actually look at where he's shooting, he's obviously not trying to aim, he literally shot the entire freaking top of the building, that's a grouping of like 100 square feet.

 

And Punisher could disappear into "the maze of favelas" too, seriously, this guy is as resourceful, as stealthy as Batman, except he has better equipment and he's more ruthless. And a batarang? Are you serious? I take your Batarang and raise you a .45 ACP to the head. Even if he doesn't want to kill Batman, he'll take out his knees and elbows or something.

 

That's not point blank. And I'm assuming that there's a page in between that one and the one you posted before, because Batman's at a different distance and knows where the detective is. The detective doesn't shoot him at that range, so that scan is useless.

[Guest force_echo]

Justice League issue 1, dodging machine gun fire from a helicopter while chasing a para demon.

Again, that's not him dodging jack, that's him rolling, and the copter missing. Dodging a bullet would be if the comic clearly indicates a bullet being fired and then Batman moving out of the way of the clear flight path of that bullet.

[C.T.]

For example.

 

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=7RppfiZ50jQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D7RppfiZ50jQ

 

Clearly bullet dodging around 2:40-2:50 mark.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Again, that's not him dodging jack, that's him rolling, and the copter missing. Dodging a bullet would be if the comic clearly indicates a bullet being fired and then Batman moving out of the way of the clear flight path of that bullet.

I'm not saying he is dodging the actual bullets, but rather to show he can dodge fire from a mounted machine gun that has air advantage.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

No, I saw a scan where a guy misses the body shot and hits his glove, if that's what you mean. He explicitly states that he's letting the rapid fire rate take care of Batman, and if you actually look at where he's shooting, he's obviously not trying to aim, he literally shot the entire freaking top of the building, that's a grouping of like 100 square feet.

 

And Punisher could disappear into "the maze of favelas" too, seriously, this guy is as resourceful, as stealthy as Batman, except he has better equipment and he's more ruthless. And a batarang? Are you serious? I take your Batarang and raise you a .45 ACP to the head. Even if he doesn't want to kill Batman, he'll take out his knees and elbows or something.

 

That's not point blank. And I'm assuming that there's a page in between that one and the one you posted before, because Batman's at a different distance and knows where the detective is. The detective doesn't shoot him at that range, so that scan is useless.

 

Well, if that scan doesn't convince you, here's one where Batman blocks machine gun fire with his arm.

 

batbulletblock.jpg

 

Seriously? Punisher is as stealthy as Batman? No, not at all. And while I have PROVEN through multiple scans and with evidence that Batman is fast enough to dodge bullets, there is no evidence that Punisher wouldn't get dropped with a batarang.

 

Here's another interesting tidbit.

 

year2_batbulletdodge.jpg

 

Basically, Punisher will have an extremely hard time hitting Batman, but Batman will have no trouble closing with Punisher or hitting him with tranqs or Batarangs, which Punisher is not fast enough to dodge.

[C.T.]

There's bullet dodging and then there's aim dodging. Different things.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

There's bullet dodging and then there's aim dodging. Different things.

 

Diving into a hail of AK-47 fire isn't bullet dodging? Blocking submachine gun fire with your arm is certainly bullet timing.

[Guest bigballerju]

Punisher is just as good as Batman with prep and is a master with setting traps Batman won't see coming because he doesn't have the high class miltary experience Punisher does. Punisher is a master with explosives and can create all sorts of traps with them. Punisher has weapons ranging from sniper rifle, rocket launcher, machine guns, grenades, C4, and all those heavy weapons as well as equipment he will definitely be able to have in his van.

 

Have the people who are focusing on Batman dodging bullets forgetting Punisher has fought Spiderman and Daredevil on separate occasion who are faster? Seriously are people just ignoring Punisher's feats because he is going against Batman here the fan favorite? Punisher is going to have a hard time hitting Batman? Punisher was capable of fighting Spiderman who is faster and stronger. Punisher can fight Daredevil who moves faster then Batman. Punisher's high class miltary experience and ruthlessness allows him to compete against those two. Spiderman could blitz Punisher honestly but its been proven Punisher's ruthlessnes prevails because he catches Spiderman off guard with attacks such as a flash grenade to the face for example he won't see coming. Also Punisher isn't afraid to pull the trigger. Seriously Punisher managed to set a explosive trap that not even Ironman in his armor could detect in Punisher War Zone issue 5. Hell the man entered Stark's building with all it's defenses and took out Tony Stark when he wasn't in his armor.

 

Batman is going to get blown to hell multiple times before he reaches Punisher and it will be explosive traps Batman won't see coming at all because he does't have the experience Punisher does in that field. By then Punisher could just leave Batman a bloody mess on the floor or he could just put a bullet in his head to put him out his misery.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

I lean slightly toward Batman, not because of any bullet-dodging but because he'll be using stealth and deception the whole time to keep Castle from having a legitimate target. Showing himself to a skilled gunman like Punisher would be tantamont to suicide.

 

Here's a little on the physics of "bullet timing."

 

Ammunition Muzzle Velocity At 10' At 25' At 100' At 300'

9mm Parabellum (Uzi Submachine gun) 1300 ft/sec 0.007 sec 0.019 sec 0.076 sec 0.23 sec

.357 Magnum (.357 Colt Python) 1600 ft/sec 0.0076 sec 0.015 sec 0.06 sec 0.19 sec

5.56×45mm NATO (M-16 Rifle) 3100 ft/sec 0.003 sec 0.008 sec 0.03 sec 0.09 sec

 

I used 2 common handgun rounds and one common assault rifle round that are fairly representative of what Batman has to face.

 

The discipline of Mental chronometry shows that the fastest possible human reaction time is 330 miliseconds. In other words, the human body starts to act 0.33 seconds after you see the gun firing. Let's give Batman the benefit of the doubt and say that he can react a little faster than humanly possible at 0.25 sec.

 

The world's fastest man, Usain Bolt, can move his body at about 41 ft/sec (28 mph). It is theoretically possible to move at 59 ft/sec (40 mph.) If we allow Batman this higher theoretical speed, and say that he has to move just 8" to twist his body out of the path of the bullet, it will take him foot to better this 28 mph he could do it in 0.013 seconds.

 

So, the time it would take Batman to get out of the path of a bullet from the moment he sees it would be 0.25 + 0.013 = 0.263 seconds. These are ideal conditions and give Batman both better reflexes and higher body speed than has ever been recorded for any human being.

 

Plug that into our table of ammunition and we get this:

 

 

Can Batman dodge 9mm Parabellum bullets at 300'? No, it would hit him 0.03 seconds before his nervous system could process the image of the gun firing and tell his body to move. Since this is the slowest bullet at the greatest range, I won't go into the others. The bottom line is that you have to be MUCH faster than it is possible for a human being to be to have even a chance.

 

Unless we say that Batman (or Daredevil, or Nightwing, or Snake Eyes or anyone else who gets touted as a "bullet timer") has genuinely superhuman speed and reflexes (as in at least 10 times faster than the best human athlete) the idea of dodging a bullet after it's been fired is humanly impossible. It makes for a fun scene, but IMO should be taken as the writer or artist having fun and not meant to be evidence.

 

Can Spiderman or Deathstroke dodge bullets? Could be, it depends on how fast their reflex time is and I don't have any data on that. Can Flash or Wonder Woman? Sure. Can Iron Fist? Yes, but only when he uses his power to speed his reflexes to superhuman levels.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Blocking submachine gun fire with your arm is certainly bullet timing.

 

Yes, but what we see in that scan is much harder than dodging or blocking a single bullet. I didn't count but it looks like he swats at least half a dozen bullets out of the air. To be able to do that, he would need to be hundreds of times faster than the fastest human.