Match 13238 Clark Kent (Smallville) and Justice League and Justice Society of America vs. Apocalypse and Horsemen of Apocalypse and X-Men

[Guest bigballerju]

So you agree with me?

[AVP vs The Terminator]

No. It was depth perception. Or just inconsistency. Either way, it was later shown that it's the size of Metropolis, so... retcon?

[Guest bigballerju]

It wasn't the size of Metropolis. Where are you getting that from? In the show it was shown to be just as large as Earth when it was right next to it. You also saw how large the planet was when Clark pushed it away. LOL a planet that huge was the size of Metropolis? No I don't think so. The planet was above Metropolis as it was coming down on Earth. That was just a lower portion of the planet. Throughout the episode it was shown to be a planet close in size to Earth.

 

I'll provide more pictures from the episodes but I really shouldn't have to. It clearly shows it throughout the entire episode.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

What on Earth are you talking about? It curves upwards at the edge of the city. It's the size of Metropolis.

[Guest force_echo]

You don't know if that's the whole planet, it could just be a spherical mountain protruding from the actual planet.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

No, it is the whole planet, because a little bit later Superman flies it away and there's no trace of anything attached to the back of it.

[Guest bigballerju]

Finally here is the clip I was looking for. This is the entire planet coming toward Earth. It's actually bigger then Earth.

 

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

You don't know if that's the whole planet, it could just be a spherical mountain protruding from the actual planet.

 

If it is, the mountain has exactly the came topography as the planet, right down to fire pits in the same places. Also, there are no spherical mountains seen on the planet in any of the long shots.

 

 

It wasn't the size of Metropolis. Where are you getting that from?

 

First, thanks for the comic scan. Unfortunately, it only gives us Lois's statement and she seems more interested in praising the man she loves than in rendering precise scientific information in that scene.

 

As several of us have stated, the idea that the planet is roughly the size of Metropolis comes from this image...

 

 

 

 

I know you don't like that image, but is was there in the episode. I don't understand why you disregard this while claiming the other image is conclusive.

 

In the show it was shown to be just as large as Earth when it was right next to it. You also saw how large the planet was when Clark pushed it away. LOL a planet that huge was the size of Metropolis? No I don't think so. The planet was above Metropolis as it was coming down on Earth. That was just a lower portion of the planet. Throughout the episode it was shown to be a planet close in size to Earth.

 

You write as if your opinion is self-evident. It isn't and that's why I (and others) disagree. I've looked at this very carefully and given my reasons for disagreeing with you. You have not offered any arguments that demonstrate I am wrong, you have only repeated your opinion. I'm sorry, but that's just not evidence.

 

You are correct when you say that we are seeing the lower part of the planet. Based on the curvature, its easy to extrapolate this and see that it's about 1/3 of the planet. When two planets are almost touching and you see the curvature of one but the other looks perfectly flat, that means the one that appears flat is much, much bigger than the curved one; this is basic geometry.

 

Look at 0:00 on the video clip you posted. This is the image that the capture that looks like two planets of equal size almost touching. It might be that, but it could just as easily be a trick of perspective. If the camera's POV is from a point in space that the planet is passing as it approaches earth, the planet would be much smaller than earth. It's impossible to tell which understanding is better.

 

Look at 0:58. You'll see Clark flying toward Metropolis. The planet has nearly touched the city but you can see the lower third of it. It's essentially the same image as my scan but with Clark flying through it. Apokolips, at its widest point, is slightly wider than Metropolis.

 

Look at the video at 1:35. If that looks familiar, that's because this is the image I posted.

 

Look at 1:42, this is the perspective from the ground. The people in Metropolis are looking up at Apokolips. You can see a little about half of the planet from this angle. You can see an edge and, by it's curvature, tell that the entire perimeter of the planet would be visible to someone on the ground. There ate two ways for this to be possible.

 

1) This is an earth sized object, but it is still relatively far from the earth--say the distance of the moon.

2) This is an object that is millions of times smaller than the earth that is only a few hundred feet over Metropolis.

 

It cannot possibly be an earth sized object that is a few hundred feet from the city. If that were the case the planet would fill the sky from horizon to horizon. You would not be able to see any edge at all.

 

Look at 1:57. This is essentially the image I posted first, but now Clark is streaking toward the object. You can see the edge so it is either an earth-sized object millions of miles away or a much smaller object a few hundred feet away.

 

At 2:13 the planet begins of move out of the frame; Clark has reached it and is starting to push. The edge of the planet is clearly visible and the way the sky lightens quickly as the edge shifts out of sight. This wouldn't happen if this were Force Echo's spherical mountain.

 

At 2:46 we see Apokolips moving away from earth. We can see the curvature of the earth in a way that is only possible from orbital distances. We can also see a small red and blue blur just left of center. This resolves into Clark. He has stopped pushing the planet and is watching as it drifts into space. Clark is only a few hundred feet from the but we can see the planet's curvature. This is only possible if the planet is relatively small--say the size of a city.

 

There are 7 appearances of the planet in this video. Of these 6 clearly show the planet is much smaller than the earth. The 7th may show they are the same size, but that is open to interpretation. Please tell me why we should disregard the 6 scenes in favor of your interpretation of the 1 scene.

 

So, physics says it makes more sense that this is a city-sized planet, geometry says that it is a city sized planet, and most of the visual evidence says it is a city-sized planet. It's nothing personal, but I'm going to go with this over the opinions of you and Lois Lane.

 

Please note, I'm not saying that Smallville Clark can't move an earth-sized planet; maybe he can. All I'm saying is that he clearly doesn't in this episode.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Ah, evidence at last!

 

This is the scene DSkillz referred to. The way Apokalips disrupts the rings of Saturn is unambiguous. This is not a matter of perspective, it really is at least the size of Saturn. More than that, as a terrestrial (solid) planet it would be many times as massive as the gas giant it passes.

 

It also demonstrates that whoever is steering it is doing a terrible job. It should be easy to come into the system without side-swiping another planet.

 

The only problem with this scene is that it doesn't match any of the other scenes in the episode. We have one scene where it's as big as Saturn, one where it seems to be the same size as earth, and half a dozen where it is slightly bigger than Metropolis. Which one do you pick?

 

You can pick your favorite, you can pick the one that is the most logical, you can even say that they're all accurate and that Apokolips gets smaller as it gets closer (I actually like the last one, it's elegant.) The thing you can't do is prove any of them. The presentation of the planet is so inconsistent that any choice you make is arbitrary.

 

The only way I can see to resolve this is to find a script or interview where the producers or the writer say how big they meant it to be. If they said they wanted Apokolips to be bigger than the earth but the sfx guys said they couldn't do that, I'd be glad to accept it.

 

Finally here is the clip I was looking for. This is the entire planet coming toward Earth. It's actually bigger then Earth.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-wmNRy0z7U&list=PL47FF543C2F1E20B6

[DSkillz]

I was just getting ready to post that the planet Apokolips was shown passing on its way to Earth may have actually been Saturn, and that vid is proof of that. It's been over half a year since I've seen those final eps, though, so I couldn't say for certain until now. I'm also thinking that while the producers very likely meant for Apokolips to be planet-sized, they clearly messed up on scaling with most of the shots of the planet as it neared Metropolis.

 

Anyways, I may post a bit more on-topic in a bit.

[Guest Supes Rulez]

Awesome. I have to say Team 1 takes this.

[Guest sirmethos]

Wonder Woman alone could take out Magneto and Storm. She is too fast for them to react to. Then if she removes her bracelets it is said she goes into a rage and it possibly stronger than Superman (new 52).

 

No, Wonder Woman alone could not take out Magneto, though it's quite possible that she could take out Storm.

 

Magneto has been shown capable of reacting fast enough to catch speedsters off guard, and was fast enough(both reaction and movement) to catch Northstar while he was blitz attacking Magneto(Magneto caught him by the throat, while Northstar was zipping around him, repeatedly punching him at high speed).

 

 

apocalypse has limitless strength he can't be hurt by most forms of attack magic doesn't do much you can't realy hurt him by brute strength either when he is at full strength going by powers matter manipulation couldn't do anything.

i realy don't see a way for the jla to beat him.

 

No, Apocalypse does not have "limitless strength", he has potentially limitless strength. It's a fine, but very distinct difference. And yes, he can be hurt, it's just difficult to do.

 

Apocalypse's major weakness in this fight, is his lack of speed.

 

going by powers hulk and apocalypse has limitless strength and i don't care how strong superman he has a limit and apocalypse can't be hurt with punches the one who has a shot is fate and thats only a maybe because we don't know how he responds to that kind of magic noone else here can hurt apocalypse even if they do he can heal himself at will psi attacks won't do a thing strength he is as strong as he wants to be without the good guy having to win apocalypse would never have lost.

 

Again, no. Neither Hulk, nor Apocalypse have "limitless strength", they have potentially limitless strength.

 

And neither of them have the speed to stand up to the heavy hitters on the opposite team.

[xLEGACYx]

@sirmethos

 

While Magneto can keep up with speedsters with his reaction time. What good does that do him against someone with as much raw power as Wonder Woman? Current Wonder Woman is more ruthless and appears to be stronger than before

[Callisto]

Match Final Results

USER RATINGS

B

B

SCORE

Justice Society of America and Justice League and Clark Kent (Smallville): 17

Apocalypse and X-Men and Horsemen of Apocalypse: 12

FPA: 3.0

 

[Guest sirmethos]

@sirmethos

 

While Magneto can keep up with speedsters with his reaction time. What good does that do him against someone with as much raw power as Wonder Woman? Current Wonder Woman is more ruthless and appears to be stronger than before

 

His shields are easily powerful enough to withstand the force Wonder Woman can put against them, for the few moments it would take him to neutralize her.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Somebody should do a Magneto vs Wonder Woman battle so we can discuss this in more depth.

[xLEGACYx]

 

 

His shields are easily powerful enough to withstand the force Wonder Woman can put against them, for the few moments it would take him to neutralize her.

what is he going to do to neutralize her? She should be able to withstand anything Magneto can throw at her. She also at minimum has the strength to move a third of the planet.

[Guest sirmethos]

what is he going to do to neutralize her? She should be able to withstand anything Magneto can throw at her. She also at minimum has the strength to move a third of the planet.

 

Stop the blood flow to her brain, and that way make her fall unconscious. Or stop the blood flow to her heart, and that way kill her. Just to give an example of one of the easiest ways he could neutralize her, with an absolute minimum of power.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

what is he going to do to neutralize her? She should be able to withstand anything Magneto can throw at her. She also at minimum has the strength to move a third of the planet.

 

While there is a certain logic to this, I wonder it applies to WW's villains. How do they give her a hard time? Are they all more powerful than Magneto?

 

Just curious.

[xLEGACYx]

 

 

Stop the blood flow to her brain, and that way make her fall unconscious. Or stop the blood flow to her heart, and that way kill her. Just to give an example of one of the easiest ways he could neutralize her, with an absolute minimum of power.

technically she is magic in nature. Don't know about now but before she was part of the earth of some sort. The earth itself could actually aid in healing her.

 

Also in my initial comments I stated that I believe Zatanna could simply surpress the x gene in the mutants and render them simply human. It may be a stretch but I find it possible. Especially with the aid of dr fate

[xLEGACYx]

 

 

While there is a certain logic to this, I wonder it applies to WW's villains. How do they give her a hard time? Are they all more powerful than Magneto?

 

Just curious.

not all bit most have some sort of magic involved that gives them the ability to harm her but in hades, ares, or other amazons the strength is a factor

[Guest bigballerju]

In the new 52 Wonder Woman is the daughter of Zeus and Hera. People are focusing on Zatanna and Wonder Woman which is great. What about the other powerhouses though like Alan Scott? Powergirl? and others?

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Hard to comment on every character who deserves it when there are so many involved.

[xLEGACYx]

In the new 52 Wonder Woman is the daughter of Zeus and Hera. People are focusing on Zatanna and Wonder Woman which is great. What about the other powerhouses though like Alan Scott? Powergirl? and others?

thats what I was trying to get at. Zatanna, Wonder Woman, and Clark would cause so serious trouble for team 2. When you add in the other characters it would begin to completely overwhelm them.

[Guest bigballerju]

Hard to comment on every character who deserves it when there are so many involved.

 

That's the wonderful thing about these type of matches they end up challenging you that way.