Deadliest Warriors:Predators(Yautja) vs Elites(Sangheili)

[Guest ricrery]

No, because every number they give out in any book seems to contradict everything else. It's easy to see how they could screw up a simple formula when you have to juggle the Rate of Fire into it. I believe they didn't go that far.

 

First, this is Bungie. They do not ever remain noticeably consistent with their EU. Oh, for... Halo Reach was a retcon of a third of its own book! Second, if they *vulgarity*ed up their own math, that's not going to count unless they say that they actually *vulgarity*ed up their own math and meant something else.

 

1) Same to you. You don't know their stance on Movies, and you have the rather idiotic assumption that the Movie would be Lower then the Games and Books. Even though EVERYTHING in it would be Canon, as it does not use Game Mechanics. My Assumption is much, much more founded, as based on almost all other works that have movies (Except for the very few that Rekai posted) Movies hold much more prestige then other works of the same universe.

 

3) What happened to your third point?

 

1) Except I didn't make the original claim it was going to be highest canon. I stated it could be low canon or not canon as a reply to your claim it would be high canon. Read, could. It could be anything, and your positive claim has no actual evidence Bungie was going to place it above everything else. The burden of proof is on you to prove it would be high canon. The burden of proof is also on you to prove that Bungie believes Covenant weapons are at least in the double digit kJ (or going by the EU novels, megajoules)

 

3) I don't know, what happened to your second point?

 

1) The whole thing, read it like I wrote it, one full sentence.

 

2) IDK how heavy a Slip Drive is, presumably it's rather heavy as it required an Elephant to carry it.

 

3) His shields weren't down as we saw no damage to his actual hand from having that entire clip pumped into it, and his shields never regenerated as we never saw that happen.

 

4) No... Bungie is absolutely 100% Correct in stating that the Games are the Highest Tier of existing works... But only their Story. Game Mechanics and therefore Everything But the Story, is therefor Non-Canon.

 

1) I see, too bad that I covered one point that I supposedly missed, and the other mattering is up for debate.

 

2) According to TFoR, Covenant and UNSC ships are lighter than air both. So, for it to be that heavy the FTL drive much denser and thus massed a noticeable fraction of a UNSC vessel.

 

3) Fine, but we still can't say that the MA5 there has the same specs as the other 32 rounds variants, and we know the Arbiter lost his shields after being hit by 72 kJ, so we can use that as a bench mark for Covenant shields.

 

4) Except we know that they can do more in a cutscene than they can in the normal game. If they didn't want him getting hit by plasma bolts, they wouldn't have gotten him hit by bolts. Why are they so sure of these "45 kilojoule bolts" if they want to suggest much less from a cutscene in which they can decide what happens? Also, were you not previously using game mechanics to support First Strike's instance, AFTER claiming that game mechanics didn't count?

 

A) To support single digit kJ bolts, we have this. At 0:54, Jun fires his sniper hurling an Elite away, which probably suggests that it also defeated the shields. According to Halopedia, it uses 14.5x114mm bullets. I would say they have a mass of 70 grams each, and at 1,000 m/s, a KE of 35,000 J and a momentum of 70 kg*m/s, and at 2 rounds a second, it's a maximum of 70,000 J hit into the Elite in the time frame we see. This is also like a movie, and Bungie is not restricted here at all. There's no reason to argue against this, right?

 

Doing calculations on the shields 20 seconds in gives me 4 pixels for the width of the energy disappeared, and 214 pixels for the width of the entire shield itself. If that bolt was 5 kilojoules, then the energy shield has a strength of 267,500 J. However, that's assuming that the energy goes away at the same rate even once it reaches the middle.

[Skirmisher]

First, this is Bungie. They do not ever remain noticeably consistent with their EU. Oh, for... Halo Reach was a retcon of a third of its own book! Second, if they *vulgarity*ed up their own math, that's not going to count unless they say that they actually *vulgarity*ed up their own math and meant something else.

The thing is, you have to put your self in the mind of the Bungie employee. They don;t seem too number savvy, more along the lines of look it up on Wiki, kinda people.

 

Adding into the calc, and adjusting for Rate of Fire, isn't something that I see them actually doing.

 

As well, not many people would actually own up to a mistake like that. So basically you're saying "They're wrong, but because they won't admit to it, it automatically makes them right, even though it's wrong."

 

 

1) Except I didn't make the original claim it was going to be highest canon. I stated it could be low canon or not canon as a reply to your claim it would be high canon. Read, could. It could be anything, and your positive claim has no actual evidence Bungie was going to place it above everything else. The burden of proof is on you to prove it would be high canon. The burden of proof is also on you to prove that Bungie believes Covenant weapons are at least in the double digit kJ (or going by the EU novels, megajoules)

 

3) I don't know, what happened to your second point?

1) It could be, but if a Movie rates on the Canon Scale of a Universe then it's most assuredly at the very top of that hierarchy. As well, I don't think that they were ever stated or shown anywhere near the Mega Joules. It's not as if heads were violently exploded like a couple sticks of TNT were stuffed in their mouths and detonated.

 

3) Well, the previous part of my last post had 2 covered in the first part. Your 3 was just completely missing.

 

 

According to TFoR, Covenant and UNSC ships are lighter than air both. So, for it to be that heavy the FTL drive much denser and thus massed a noticeable fraction of a UNSC vessel.

I find that a rather Laughable assumption.

 

Wait, you're basing this on a Novel that you yourself have called Non-Canon? Hypocrite much?

 

As well, Bungie has NEVER been good with their numbers. Apparently there were only 23 or 24 Spartan II's at the time of the Fall of Reach, yet they come out with more numbers of Actual Spartan II's regularly.

 

MAC's have had their Yields calced at 1.17 Teratons, 1.17 Gigatons, "Several Hundred" Megatons, and even 56 Megatons.

 

That's all the same gun too...

 

What makes you think that those EXTREMELY LOW WEIGHT numbers are actually valid?

 

 

1) Fine, but we still can't say that the MA5 there has the same specs as the other 32 rounds variants, and we know the Arbiter lost his shields after being hit by 72 kJ, so we can use that as a bench mark for Covenant shields.

 

2) Except we know that they can do more in a cutscene than they can in the normal game. If they didn't want him getting hit by plasma bolts, they wouldn't have gotten him hit by bolts. Why are they so sure of these "45 kilojoule bolts" if they want to suggest much less from a cutscene in which they can decide what happens? Also, were you not previously using game mechanics to support First Strike's instance, AFTER claiming that game mechanics didn't count?

 

3) To support single digit kJ bolts, we have this. At 0:54, Jun fires his sniper hurling an Elite away, which probably suggests that it also defeated the shields. According to Halopedia, it uses 14.5x114mm bullets. I would say they have a mass of 70 grams each, and at 1,000 m/s, a KE of 35,000 J and a momentum of 70 kg*m/s, and at 2 rounds a second, it's a maximum of 70,000 J hit into the Elite in the time frame we see. This is also like a movie, and Bungie is not restricted here at all. There's no reason to argue against this, right?

1) Nope. Forge nearly crushed the Arbiter with the slipdrive, Fired exactly 20 rounds of MA5 Ammo at him, then unloaded 8 rounds of M6 ammo into his hand. Add it all together and it's Well, over your estimates.

 

2) Um... First Strike is a Book, it doesn't have Game Mechanics. Unless you want to talk about Book Mechanics...

 

3) Actually they Sniper Rifle fires at 1450m/s (Multiple sources actually state this, it's possibly the only thing that doesn't have several different numbers for it), as well, the normal average 70g bullet you are referring to are all Incendiary rounds, the Halo version doesn't have that, and instead opps for more weight to pack a harder punch of KE damage. So, I would actually think that the numbers you gave are far lower then the actual numbers.

 

Based off the existing round, the Actual projectile would be 51mm long with a diameter of 14mm, giving a rough volume of 7.85cc, let's round it down and knock off 10% to account for the tapered head for 6cc. I'll make an Educated Guess that the Bullet has a core of Tungsten Carbide (The Usual AP Round material) with a density of 15.8 g/cm³.

 

Based on the fact that they Existing round has only 60% of it's weight in Carbide for Incendiary purposes, the total % of Carbide in the bullet should be increased to max (Let's say 80%). Therefore the total weight of the bullet should look more like 90g

 

For a total energy per shot of ~95,000 Joules or around Three times what you rated it as. With two hits as you say into the Elite that's ~170,000 joules into it.

 

And it's funny, this actually fits all the higher numbers that I've been talking about.

[Guest ricrery]

The thing is, you have to put your self in the mind of the Bungie employee. They don;t seem too number savvy, more along the lines of look it up on Wiki, kinda people.

 

Adding into the calc, and adjusting for Rate of Fire, isn't something that I see them actually doing.

 

Are you suggesting Bungie can't do simple division?

 

As well, not many people would actually own up to a mistake like that. So basically you're saying "They're wrong, but because they won't admit to it, it automatically makes them right, even though it's wrong."

 

So then, why should we assume they can't do math?

 

1) It could be, but if a Movie rates on the Canon Scale of a Universe then it's most assuredly at the very top of that hierarchy. As well, I don't think that they were ever stated or shown anywhere near the Mega Joules. It's not as if heads were violently exploded like a couple sticks of TNT were stuffed in their mouths and detonated.

 

3) Well, the previous part of my last post had 2 covered in the first part. Your 3 was just completely missing.

 

1) Which doesn't mean it would be higher than the games. Also, melting noticeable amounts of titanium.

 

I find that a rather Laughable assumption.

 

Wait, you're basing this on a Novel that you yourself have called Non-Canon? Hypocrite much?

 

Basically, only one-third of the novel is non canon, which is probably why I called it that.

 

1) As well, Bungie has NEVER been good with their numbers. Apparently there were only 23 or 24 Spartan II's at the time of the Fall of Reach, yet they come out with more numbers of Actual Spartan II's regularly.

 

2) MAC's have had their Yields calced at 1.17 Teratons, 1.17 Gigatons, "Several Hundred" Megatons, and even 56 Megatons.

 

That's all the same gun too...

 

3)What makes you think that those EXTREMELY LOW WEIGHT numbers are actually valid?

 

1) Did they claim this themselves, or did some EU author do that?

 

2) All of which Bungie did not make. That was the EU, who has contradicted Bungie several times themselves. Bungie has actually remained somewhat consistent in their showings of MAC guns, like in Halo 3 and Reach, both of which did not support the yields you mentioned. So, why should we take the EU's word over Bungie's? Apparently they can't remain consistent or do math.

 

3) Because those are canon numbers. We must take the EU's word, because they are never ever wrong and have a good sense of scale, opposed to Bungie, who know nothing of scale, right?

[Guest ricrery]

1) Nope. Forge nearly crushed the Arbiter with the slipdrive, Fired exactly 20 rounds of MA5 Ammo at him, then unloaded 8 rounds of M6 ammo into his hand. Add it all together and it's Well, over your estimates.

 

2) Um... First Strike is a Book, it doesn't have Game Mechanics. Unless you want to talk about Book Mechanics...

 

3) Actually they Sniper Rifle fires at 1450m/s (Multiple sources actually state this, it's possibly the only thing that doesn't have several different numbers for it), as well, the normal average 70g bullet you are referring to are all Incendiary rounds, the Halo version doesn't have that, and instead opps for more weight to pack a harder punch of KE damage. So, I would actually think that the numbers you gave are far lower then the actual numbers.

 

A)Based off the existing round, the Actual projectile would be 51mm long with a diameter of 14mm, giving a rough volume of 7.85cc, let's round it down and knock off 10% to account for the tapered head for 6cc. I'll make an Educated Guess that the Bullet has a core of Tungsten Carbide (The Usual AP Round material) with a density of 15.8 g/cm³.

 

1) That is assuming that the 60 round MA5 has the same specs as the 32 round MA5, which is rather very, very unlikely.

 

2) No, you said that the games supported First Strike as to how powerful fuel rod guns were, and the only thing you can actually use is the game mechanics to find that out.

 

3) First, what? The average bullet is apparently 60 grams, not 70. Second, just which sources say 1,450 m/s, exactly? Third, this is rather questionable, given that their bullets tend to weigh less than their modern Earth's equivalents.

 

Based on the fact that they Existing round has only 60% of it's weight in Carbide for Incendiary purposes, the total % of Carbide in the bullet should be increased to max (Let's say 80%). Therefore the total weight of the bullet should look more like 90g

 

For a total energy per shot of ~95,000 Joules or around Three times what you rated it as. With two hits as you say into the Elite that's ~170,000 joules into it.

 

And it's funny, this actually fits all the higher numbers that I've been talking about.

 

Yes, and those numbers come in contradiction with Halo 2, where 72,000 J (an at most) downs the Arbiter's shields and harms him, and the numbers I posted are somewhat consistent with the Halo 2 scene. So, that could mean the shell is actually lighter than the masses stated, the Arbiter has mediocre shielding, the Elite's shields didn't have the entire bullet's energy get soaked up, or in support of the previous possibility, Jun only fired one shot and that was enough to both defeat the shields and kill the Elite.

 

The first is probably not likely and the second is even less likely. The third and fourth are better choices.

[Skirmisher]

Are you suggesting Bungie can't do simple division?

No, I'm just saying they didn't think to go that far.

 

 

So then, why should we assume they can't do math?

Because look at almost all the numbers seen... we have large kilometer long ships, that weigh about as much as a conventional modern destroyer.

 

MAC numbers that dance through the magnitudes.

 

Soldiers mysteriously appearing out of thin air.

 

I'm not saying they can't do math, it's just that they don't have a firm grasp upon what their numbers should actually look like.

 

It's not like they couldn't have even checked the numbers against other ships either. The USS Enterprise (CVN-65) is ~350m long and weighs just under 100,000 tons... even if it were as simple as multiplying it by 3 to get the weight for those 1km long ships, it would still get what 10? 15 times more then the random number assigned to the ships by Bungie.

 

 

Which doesn't mean it would be higher than the games. Also, melting noticeable amounts of titanium.

What would you consider a noticeable amount of titanium?

 

 

1) Did they claim this themselves, or did some EU author do that?

 

2) All of which Bungie did not make. That was the EU, who has contradicted Bungie several times themselves. Bungie has actually remained somewhat consistent in their showings of MAC guns, like in Halo 3 and Reach, both of which did not support the yields you mentioned. So, why should we take the EU's word over Bungie's? Apparently they can't remain consistent or do math.

 

3) Because those are canon numbers. We must take the EU's word, because they are never ever wrong and have a good sense of scale, opposed to Bungie, who know nothing of scale, right?

1) They did so themselves somewhere, it was in full support of TFoR.

 

2) Actually since you KEEP USING GAME MECHANICS I'm dropping this talk of MAC rounds. The EU is much more accurate then the Games on them as they're not based in GAME MECHANICS.

 

3) Nope, I'm saying that Everything is Wrong. The weight on the guns is wrong, the weight on the ships is wrong, the magical ability to hold more ammo then possible is wrong, we don't even know the Actual KE of a MAC round as even that is screwed up. There are few, a very precious few actual numbers that don't seem screwed up or are at least consistent throughout canon.

 

Bungie had a Good thing going, but royally *vulgarity*ed it up it seems. To intent on $$$ then on a good cohesive universe.

[Guest ricrery]

No, I'm just saying they didn't think to go that far.

 

They had all the time to do some multiplying and division. We have no reason to believe they were wrong for no reason. Is there ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL THAT SUPPORTS WE MUST NOT TAKE THEIR WORD FOR IT?

 

1) Because look at almost all the numbers seen... we have large kilometer long ships, that weigh about as much as a conventional modern destroyer.

 

2) MAC numbers that dance through the magnitudes.

 

3) Soldiers mysteriously appearing out of thin air.

 

4) I'm not saying they can't do math, it's just that they don't have a firm grasp upon what their numbers should actually look like.

 

5) It's not like they couldn't have even checked the numbers against other ships either. The USS Enterprise (CVN-65) is ~350m long and weighs just under 100,000 tons... even if it were as simple as multiplying it by 3 to get the weight for those 1km long ships, it would still get what 10? 15 times more then the random number assigned to the ships by Bungie.

 

1) That is from a EU author who apparently can't do math or scale, but that doesn't stop anyone from using feats from his novels, right? No, his numbers are PERFECTLY legit (until 30 megaton mines come up, and he's immediately wrong), but Bungie is not legit at all on their numbers. Am I right?

 

2) Again, it's not them, it's authors who have no sense of scale. In fact, Joseph Staten, a writer for most of the Halo games, made it very clear that sub-kiloton kinetic weapons can actually cripple CCS Battlecruisers, as demonstrated in Contact Harvest, hm, that reminds of the MAC feats in the games.

 

3) ... When? Is this game mechanics?

 

4) Oh, but we should automatically accept the numbers given from someone who can't do math must be legit? We must take his word over Bungie's just because Bungie was wrong, based of nothing.

 

5) Again, they didn't make those numbers. It was EU authors who strangely have more legitimacy with their works than Bungie does.

 

What would you consider a noticeable amount of titanium?

 

Oh, a kilogram or two.

 

1) They did so themselves somewhere, it was in full support of TFoR.

 

2) Actually since you KEEP USING GAME MECHANICS I'm dropping this talk of MAC rounds. The EU is much more accurate then the Games on them as they're not based in GAME MECHANICS.

 

3) Nope, I'm saying that Everything is Wrong. The weight on the guns is wrong, the weight on the ships is wrong, the magical ability to hold more ammo then possible is wrong, we don't even know the Actual KE of a MAC round as even that is screwed up. There are few, a very precious few actual numbers that don't seem screwed up or are at least consistent throughout canon.

 

Bungie had a Good thing going, but royally *vulgarity*ed it up it seems. To intent on $$$ then on a good cohesive universe.

 

1) Link?

 

2) Wrong. In Halo 3, Lord Hood mentions MACs, and they fire MACs. The yield doesn't level everything in hundreds of kilometers, however. In Reach, they state that they will use a MAC in both of the instances that they use them. In the first, they use it against a Corvette traveling away, with anything but kiloton yield energy. In the second, they use a damned MAC against a tiny Covenant spire. All three support the same yields. Also, if you keep calling EVERY SCENE IN THE GAMES GAME MECHANICS and not canon, then you will either stop ignoring Bungie's word because it doesn't support your numbers and comply to 5 kilojoule bolts, or you will cease with this whole "it's not canon" argument.

 

3) Uh huh...

[Guest pulszes]

predators got this, they are far more agile then the elites better weapons and have an advantage since there in the jungle. they would pick off the elites one by one.

[DSkillz]

Ugh, the thread necromancy...

 

Topic's over a year and 1/2 old, man.

[Guest skadoosh]

Still a good fight, though.

[Guest 10']

this is like the Battle of Stalingrad

the Germans had better battle tactics and better weapons (like elites)

the Russians used many snipers who acted alone and depleted German morale

Russia ultimately triumph, despite being weaker in tactics and weaponry

at Congo the predator would feel at home and do what they like most: hunting

Maybe open field will win the elites with the power of their weapons

but not in the wild

besides the Predator would join each other and easily hostigarian the elites

if three Predator hunt many aliens easily

thousands of them could end the elites easy enough

remember that the strenght of the aliens is so *vulgarity*ing serious

the elites also seem physically weaker altought more agile

in hand to hand combat the Predator has the better weapons experience and tactics so...

verdict winner is the Predator

good video

[DSkillz]

*facepalm*

 

Check the date of the last comment before you post people. That's "guests" included.

[RakaiThwei]

*facepalm*

 

Check the date of the last comment before you post people. That's "guests" included.

 

You may want to lock the thread.

 

-Rakai'Thwei