13:3 - Morlun vs. Michelangelo (1987)

[C.T.]

7 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Morlun kills a Captain Universe Spidey. I think that puts him way outgunning most of these Anthropomorphic animals. I'd say Mikey's Ninja Skills and hiding out for a week are his best bet. Morlun specifically hunts Spiders. If he finds Mikey, it's over.

 

Just gonna say, although I do think Morlun wins here, that's not Morlun in the picture doing that. Captain Universe Spidey was too much for him and all his siblings, only Morlun's dad was capable of that.

[RiotGear]

 

@RakaiThwei thanks for repping Mikey.

 

As for the match. I think folks need to remember that Mikey doesn't need to beat Morlun. He just needs to stay ahead of him, but as Rakai's vids and the one above show. Even if things get physical Mikey can keep up at least long enough to get away and evade.

Spiderman has beat Morlun several and as demonstrated the 1987 Turtles can avoid gun fire at close range, break metal, and tank a building being dropped on them.

Between that and Mikey's skill he should be fine.

 

 

[RakaiThwei]

1 hour ago, RiotGear said:

 

@RakaiThwei thanks for repping Mikey.

 

As for the match. I think folks need to remember that Mikey doesn't need to be at Morlun. He just needs to stay ahead of him, but as Rakai's vids and the one above show. Even if things get physical Mikey can keep up at least long enough to get away and evade.

Spiderman has beat Morlun several and as demonstrated the 1987 Turtles can avoid gun fire at close range, break metal, and tank a building being dropped on them.

Between that and Mikey's skill he should be fine.

 

 

Also if this is Red Sky Michelangelo from Season 9, he also has access to a secondary mutation which grants him even MORE strength and durability.

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/Unstable_mutation

The thing is... it's a transformation that seems to be random albeit conveniently happens when the Turtles are under extreme stress and situations. Essentially... they Hulk out.

And in one episode of Red Sky Season... we see if the Unstable Mutation gets too far, the Turtles get energy based abilities.

An extremely Unstable Mutated Leonardo was able to breathe fire from what I remember.

[Magnamax]

This is on the level of the Battle Beast vs Chewie match in the last round. Morlun is on  a completely separate scale of power and has advantages.

[RiotGear]

32 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

This is on the level of the Battle Beast vs Chewie match in the last round. Morlun is on  a completely separate scale of power and has advantages.

Morlun has been dropped by Spiderman, so no he's not.

[Nesh]

15 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Morlun has been dropped by Spiderman, so no he's not.

Spider-man's one-on-one defeats of Morlun were all circumstantial, like Peter injecting himself with radiation in their first confrontation or being miraculouly rsurected with new powers and taking down and off guard Morlun in the Other.  Morlun is actually above Peter.  Hell, Peter's taken blows from Hulk before and is on record saying that Morlun's punches were the hardest he'd been hit, at least at the time, but the Hulk was before that so... 

Morlun scales to Spidey who has at dodged multiple sniper shots at once among other things putting him in the Hypersonic range.  Mikey's though, I get that, but ket's not downplay Morlun here.

[RiotGear]

2 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Spider-man's one-on-one defedats pf Morlun were all circumstantial, like Peter injecting himself with radiation in their first confrontation or being miraculouly rsurected with new powers and taking down and off guard Morlun in the Other.  Morlun is actually above Peter.  Hell, Peter's taken blows from Hulk before and is on record saying that Morlun's punches were the hardest he'd been hit, at least at the time, but the Hulk was before that so... 

Morlun scales to Spidey who has at dodged multiple sniper shots at once among other things putting him in the Hypersonic range.  Mikey's though, I get that, but ket's not downplay Morlun here.

I wasn't downplaying Morlun or Spider-Man. I was pointing out that we shouldn't underestimate Mikey and that Mikey doesn't have to win the fight. Just escape and evade.

[Nesh]

Just now, RiotGear said:

I wasn't downplaying Morlun or Spider-Man. I was pointing out that we shouldn't underestimate Mikey and that Mikey doesn't have to win the fight. Just escape and evade.

Phrasing it as "he was dropped by Spider-Man" seemed like a sown play to me, sorry.   Morlun also has the prep advantage, so escaping and evading is that much harder.  Like I've said before, all respect to Mikey, again, favorite turtle, but I honestly think he wins this more than he loses.  I'm not just defending him because he's on my team.  If my character loses definitively I'll be the first to admit it and vote for the other guy, see Ronald McDonald vs Trix Rabbit last round.

[Magnamax]

30 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Morlun has been dropped by Spiderman, so no he's not.

Spider-Man is on a higher tier than Mikey too. Morlun is an Inter dimensional hunter who has a month head start against someone who is not known for being sneaky or evasive.

[RiotGear]

6 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Phrasing it as "he was dropped by Spider-Man" seemed like a sown play to me, sorry.   Morlun also has the prep advantage, so escaping and evading is that much harder.  Like I've said before, all respect to Mikey, again, favorite turtle, but I honestly think he wins this more than he loses.  I'm not just defending him because he's on my team.  If my character loses definitively I'll be the first to admit it and vote for the other guy, see Ronald McDonald vs Trix Rabbit last round.

Does Morlun have a prep advantage? The scenario says after months of prep the hunter has has tracked the animal to mount Everest. That could well imply prep on both sides or that while the hunter prepped the hunt, but the animal has had more time in the location.

[RakaiThwei]

7 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Mikey's though, I get that, but ket's not downplay Morlun here.

No one is downplaying Morlun here, if anything I think it's the reverse and some of the arguments are straight up being ignored or disregarded.

Morlun is dangerous, there's no question about that but we need to consider the fact that the 1987 TMNT in their own right... are pretty downright powerful, even in the context of being mutant Turtles. If anything, if I had to scale ALL TMNT incarnations... BASED on power, showings and lethality alone... and this is INCLUDING power ups.

1.) Rise TMNT (This is why Rise is at the top)
2.) 4Kids TMNT
3.) 1987 TMNT
4.) MMPR/TMNT (Yes, in the context of the TMNT and MMPR Multiverses-- it's a universe on it's own)
5.) IDW TMNT
6.) Bay TMNT
7.) 2012 TMNT
8.) Mirage TMNT
9.) 1990 Movie TMNT
10.) Mutant Mayhem TMNT

And I'm a VERY BIG Mirage TMNT fan, so you could imagine that I DON'T LIKE TO ADMIT that they're closer to the bottom but that's because they don't have any REAL powers, and instead they have to rely on their training, their mutation and adaptations as mutant animals, and their experience-- what prevents them from being at the bottom is because they've fought superhumans, mutants, aliens, monsters and in one case... literal gods and figures of mythology. That's just the Mirage Turtles.

BUT because of the unusual and sometimes even downright broken and nonsensical nature and physics of the 1987 TMNT world, and the consistency which the Turtles show in that universe (and by proxy even seem to take some of their cartoonish abilities to other TMNT Universes) suggests that they're pretty high up there only because of the Toon Force which seems to be an inherent part of them.

People keep on mentioning Spider-Man's level of durability, and I get that Peter is tough... but he has had buildings fall on him and has shown battle damage from many of these instances. He's had Man Mountain Mark collapse a tavern all over him, he's had a skyscraper collapse on him many times, and he's sustained battle damage. Yeah, Peter's survived but he's sustained damage.

Michelangelo? Had an entire pizza parlor drop on him, with it's mass completely on top of him. Something which WOULD UNDOUBTEDLY have killed SEVEN out of TEN of those Michelangelo's from the TMNT list I compiled, assuming you take away the power ups (temporary or permanent). But even more amazing is that Michelangelo, showed no damage whatsoever, gets up relatively quick as nothing even happened. And before anyone gets on me, I know... Peter's showings of buildings collapsing on him SEEM to be more impressive if you look at the mass and size of the building, and would be definitively better than any other version of Michelangelo... EXCEPT the 1987 Toon Michelangelo. It's all about the context.

Have a larger building fall you, you survive and have some damage, might need to take a couple days off...

Have a smaller building fall on you, you completely no sell that, get up like nothing's even happened, and get back in the fight against Slash (who just LIFTED that building over head).

What's more impressive?

I'm going with the second option. Simply because of the Toon Force the 1987 TMNT have, and essentially... Toon Force gives it's imbued uses the ability to effectively say no to recieving damage, and if I remember, the 1987 Toon TMNT frequently break the fourth wall and at acknowledge or hint that they know they're cartoon characters.

[RiotGear]

12 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

Spider-Man is on a higher tier than Mikey too. Morlun is an Inter dimensional hunter who has a month head start against someone who is not known for being sneaky or evasive.

Is he? The turtles spend a ton of time being sneaky and evasive. They are ninjas after all.

[RakaiThwei]

1 minute ago, RiotGear said:

Is he? The turtles spend a ton of time being sneaky and evasive. They are ninjas after all.

Admittedly, the 1987 TMNT, for comedic effect as in the nature of the 1987 Fred-Wolf universe... aren't exactly the stealthiest since they have a blimp with their logo on it, BUT they do have some examples of them being effectively stealthy ninjas but they're far and few between.

[Nesh]

2 minutes ago, RakaiThwei said:

No one is downplaying Morlun here, if anything I think it's the reverse and some of the arguments are straight up being ignored or disregarded.

Morlun is dangerous, there's no question about that but we need to consider the fact that the 1987 TMNT in their own right... are pretty downright powerful, even in the context of being mutant Turtles.

And I've acknowledged that, I have.  It's just when people are saying Morlun was "dropped by Spider-Man without acknowledging the context of how Spidey did it.  It gelt like a downplay.  I think looking at everything presented this match xould go either way, I just think Morlun wins slightly more often.  Like 51 times out of a hundred.

[RakaiThwei]

3 minutes ago, Nesh said:

And I've acknowledged that, I have.  It's just when people are saying Morlun was "dropped by Spider-Man without acknowledging the context of how Spidey did it.  It gelt like a downplay.  I think looking at everything presented this match xould go either way, I just think Morlun wins slightly more often.  Like 51 times out of a hundred.

I wish that I could find some videos of what the Unstable Mutations from the Red Sky seasons did for the TMNT but they're very few of them and are full episodes, which according to IKA, I cannot post because it would get the forum in trouble and potentially shut down.

I do know that the Unstable Mutations made the Turtles much bigger, much stronger, far more durable, and if their mutation went unchecked, would essentially make them into literal monsters with energy projection powers. Two examples of that were when Donatello ran a simulation on Michelangelo on what would happen if his mutation went left unchecked, and then the second example was when Leonardo's Unstable Mutation further mutated and he became a fire breathing Turtle monster.

[Pizzaguy2995]

Sorry Nesh but RakaiThwei has convinced me to vote for Michelangelo. Mikey’s speed, strength and durability are surprisingly more impressive then I would have thought and as long as he can avoid Morlun for much of the time and then use his skills to retreat and keep Morlun from getting a firm hold on him then I see Mikey getting out of this alive.

[Nesh]

Just now, RakaiThwei said:

I wish that I could find some videos of what the Unstable Mutations from the Red Sky seasons did for the TMNT but they're very few of them and are full episodes, which according to IKA, I cannot post because it would get the forum in trouble and potentially shut down.

I do know that the Unstable Mutations made the Turtles much bigger, much stronger, far more durable, and if their mutation went unchecked, would essentially make them into literal monsters with energy projection powers. Two examples of that were when Donatello ran a simulation on Michelangelo on what would happen if his mutation went left unchecked, and then the second example was when Leonardo's Unstable Mutation further mutated and he became a fire breathing Turtle monster.

Yeah, it would be helpful to know what time period in the show Mikey is from here, I've just been going with base.  Of course, if it's unstable mutation Mikey it's kind of debatable whether would want to hunt him anyway.  If radiation can mess him up who knows what an unstable mutation would do.  Honestly, this is something that would really need a match with an acual set-up to give a more definitive answer.

[Nesh]

1 minute ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Sorry Nesh but RakaiThwei has convinced me to vote for Michelangelo. Mikey’s speed, strength and durability are surprisingly more impressive then I would have thought and as long as he can avoid Morlun for much of the time and then use his skills to retreat and keep Morlun from getting a firm hold on him then I see Mikey getting out of this alive.

Dude, it's fine, it's all in good fun.  Yeah, I'm debating, but I doubt I'm really going to be in the running to win this draft in the long-term, and even if I am, it's not a big deal.  Vote however you want, no need to apologize to me,

[RakaiThwei]

5 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Yeah, it would be helpful to know what time period in the show Mikey is from here, I've just been going with base.  Of course, if it's unstable mutation Mikey it's kind of debatable whether would want to hunt him anyway.  If radiation can mess him up who knows what an unstable mutation would do.  Honestly, this is something that would really need a match with an acual set-up to give a more definitive answer.

I do know that the Red Sky season, as canon as it is even in the canon of the 1987 TMNT series-- seems to be largely ignored by subsequent works but it hasn't been retconned in anyway by Nickelodeon who now owns the rights to TMNT. If anything, the 1987 TMNT Universe is being continued in comic books by IDW.

However, it should be noted that the Unstable Mutations have been remedied and cured by the end of Season 10. It suggested that the Mutagen in the bloodstream of the Turtles had gotten so dangerous and unstable, that if left unchecked their would eventually mutate into Kaiju type monstrosities if Donatello's simulation on the Unstable Mutations is anything to go by, and this is only further supported by Leonardo's Unstable Mutation getting left unchecked in one episode during the Red Sky season. It seemed to also be getting progressively worse for the Turtles, and it took a reality warping stone just to stabilize the Mutagen in their blood.

A reality warping stone, called the Vortex Stone, was needed to stabilize the Turtles.

Take from that what you will.

[Nesh]

Honestly, I've just had fun debating it, and I've learned a lot about the '87 turtles.  Confession, I've never watched the '87 cartoon.  I think I saw the first live-action movie on TV when I was little with my first major exposures to TMNT being The Next Mutation and the '03 cartoon.  Make of that what you will, especially the fact that I still have a soft spot for Next Mutation, which is widely considered the worst version of the Turtles.  I had to try and back Morlun because he's my horse in this race, but if I lose the vote, I lose.  It's no big deal.  I knew I was in for and uphill battle when Rakai stepped up to bat for Mikey, and I tip my hat to a worthy opponent.

[RakaiThwei]

9 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Honestly, I've just had fun debating it, and I've learned a lot about the '87 turtles.  Confession, I've never watched the '87 cartoon.  I think I saw the first live-action movie on TV when I was little with my first major exposures to TMNT being The Next Mutation and the '03 cartoon.  Make of that what you will, especially the fact that I still have a soft spot for Next Mutation, which is widely considered the worst version of the Turtles.  I had to try and back Morlun because he's my horse in this race, but if I lose the vote, I lose.  It's no big deal.  I knew I was in for and uphill battle when Rakai stepped up to bat for Mikey, and I tip my hat to a worthy opponent.

I just want to fight for the underdog here, and to me... Michelangelo is the one Turtle who EVERYONE underestimates, and that's something that EVERY TMNT Universe shares with the character, and we even see in one universe what Michelangelo can become if he ever got serious.

The Last Ronin.

I have a feeling that Morlun's going to take the votes, but... I feel like that I have to fight the tidal wave and defeat the characters of Marvel or DC. Ever since I joined the CBUB in 2008, I've always had to feel like that someone needed to knock Marvel characters down a peg or two. And it might as well be me.

I've tried it with Predators, although that's been met with MUCH resistance and controversy. I've had to let that go since the Disney purchase of the franchise, as my knowledge of the Yautja is now obsolete unless it pertains to the Dark Horse continuity and characters.

Now? I'm gonna try it with TMNT. And I've got plenty of feats for some versions of the TMNT. So as long as I have the ammunition... People HAVE to acknowledge what the TMNT, in many universes and iterations, can do and what their potential is.

[Nesh]

Yeah, at this point, I think we just need to let things shake out, I could make some other smaller arguments like with Spider-Ham and  his Spider-Nonsense power that makes him more cartoony the more danger he's in, and even with that it still took an army of Spider-people to bring down Morlun and his family, but no one is going to win an argument about who has more toon force.  I'm almost certain I'm going to lose this one, but oh well, I had fun.

[RakaiThwei]

2 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Yeah, at this point, I think we just need to let things shake out, I could make some other smaller arguments like with Spider-Ham and  his Spider-Nonsense power that makes him more cartoony the more danger he's in, and even with that it still took an army of Spider-people to bring down Morlun and his family, but no one is going to win an argument about who has more toon force.  I'm almost certain I'm going to lose this one, but oh well, I had fun.

See, the thing about Toon Force is that it's largely unquantifiable.

And then another thing to consider about Toon Force is context too.

For all I know, TMNT 1987 Toon Force doesn't function the same way as Spider-Ham Toon Force. And when the Red Sky season came about, the Turtles seem to have had their fourth wall breaking cartoon nature downplayed to non-existence, until post Red Sky season (Turtles Forever, Crossover with 2012 Nick TMNT and IDW's continuation) has their Toon Force abilities made a come back.

[Nesh]

1 minute ago, RakaiThwei said:

See, the thing about Toon Force is that it's largely unquantifiable.

And then another thing to consider about Toon Force is context too.

For all I know, TMNT 1987 Toon Force doesn't function the same way as Spider-Ham Toon Force. And when the Red Sky season came about, the Turtles seem to have had their fourth wall breaking cartoon nature downplayed to non-existence, until post Red Sky season (Turtles Forever, Crossover with 2012 Nick TMNT and IDW's continuation) has their Toon Force abilities made a come back.

As I said, no one would win that debat lol.

[RakaiThwei]

1 minute ago, Nesh said:

As I said, no one would win that debat lol.

I'm not sure if we have time, but should we scale Mikey to the other 1987 Toon Turtles and their use of Toon Force?