12:17 - Trevor Belmont vs. Sub-Zero

[Peypeypeypey]

8 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

 

First, this feat has no context, and doesn't actually show him manipulating ice that isn't his. Second and far more importantly, this is an amped Sub-Zero, and the fact that you didn't disclose that isn't good

[Culwych1]

Just now, Peypeypeypey said:

First, this feat has no context, and doesn't actually show him manipulating ice that isn't his. Second and far more importantly, this is an amped Sub-Zero, and the fact that you didn't disclose that isn't good

Wow, that's a bit harsh. Not sure where that came from. I had every intention of returning to this post to clarify in minutes but was actually in the middle of posting something else. I've always been brutally honest especially with my own characters. 

The dagger did amplify his power mainly to create, and hence why he was able to cover an entire city in ice. But his power to manipulate ice was already there, as seen numerous times, for example we have seen him in his fatalities turning other people's blood into ice daggers - that's a source from elsewhere. 

However, I can't see anything specific pictures of him manipulating ice that is not his, but that in no way concedes your point. All the entries describing his powers say that he is able to manipulate ice. Not his ice, just ice. He's from a race of Cryomancers who could "control, shape, and manipulate ice". If there's a specific scan of him not being able to manipulate anything but his ice then also keen to see it, as it seems quite a leap otherwise in my mind. 

That said however, I'm beginning to worry that this discussion is heading into unfriendly territory - and that's the opposite of what I want (cause we're all great friends here) - so may have to leave this one for now. 

[Peypeypeypey]

22 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Wow, that's a bit harsh. Not sure where that came from. I had every intention of returning to this post to clarify in minutes but was actually in the middle of posting something else. I've always been brutally honest especially with my own characters. 

The dagger did amplify his power mainly to create, and hence why he was able to cover an entire city in ice. But his power to manipulate ice was already there, as seen numerous times, for example we have seen him in his fatalities turning other people's blood into ice daggers - that's a source from elsewhere. 

However, I can't see anything specific pictures of him manipulating ice that is not his, but that in no way concedes your point. All the entries describing his powers say that he is able to manipulate ice. Not his ice, just ice. He's from a race of Cryomancers who could "control, shape, and manipulate ice". If there's a specific scan of him not being able to manipulate anything but his ice then also keen to see it, as it seems quite a leap otherwise in my mind. 

That said however, I'm beginning to worry that this discussion is heading into unfriendly territory - and that's the opposite of what I want (cause we're all great friends here) - so may have to leave this one for now. 

There's nothing unfriendly about me saying it's bad that you left context out. It's a very important bit of context that you didn't provide. If you're posting a feat without context that makes your fighter look too strong then I'm going to point that out, and I don't think that my language was especially harsh, but if it was then I'm sorry, I don't want the conversation to be unfriendly either.

The argument isn't even over whether Sub-Zero could manipulate the environmental ice. The answer, as you say, is that we simply don't know. He has no feats of doing it. However, what we can for sure say is that if he does have this power, he has literally never used it in decades of stories with the character. To say that he would do it now, for the first time ever, in a battle forum fight seems unreasonable to me. We can speculate on whether he can do it all day, but until I see him manipulate environmental ice, I'm going to maintain that he either can't, or perhaps more likely, won't because he wasn't trained to use his power in that way. Again, on paper, he maybe could, but unless I see the character do it, I'm not going to give them the ability to. There are many characters who could end fights in seconds with their abilities, but until I see them used that way, I'm going with how they use their powers in media, and in this case, Sub-Zero has literally never used his power to manipulate environmental ice, so he simply doesn't fight that way even if he could

EDIT: Also, fatalities are generally considered to be dubiously canon (Kanon, if you will) at best, non-kanon at worst, from my understanding

[Culwych1]

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

There's nothing unfriendly about me saying it's bad that you left context out. It's a very important bit of context that you didn't provide. If you're posting a feat without context that makes your fighter look too strong then I'm going to point that out, and I don't think that my language was especially harsh, but if it was then I'm sorry, I don't want the conversation to be unfriendly either.

The argument isn't even over whether Sub-Zero could manipulate the environmental ice. The answer, as you say, is that we simply don't know. He has no feats of doing it. However, what we can for sure say is that if he does have this power, he has literally never used it in decades of stories with the character. To say that he would do it now, for the first time ever, in a battle forum fight seems unreasonable to me. We can speculate on whether he can do it all day, but until I see him manipulate environmental ice, I'm going to maintain that he either can't, or perhaps more likely, won't because he wasn't trained to use his power in that way. Again, on paper, he maybe could, but unless I see the character do it, I'm not going to give them the ability to. There are many characters who could end fights in seconds with their abilities, but until I see them used that way, I'm going with how they use their powers in media, and in this case, Sub-Zero has literally never used his power to manipulate environmental ice, so he simply doesn't fight that way even if he could

EDIT: Also, fatalities are generally considered to be dubiously canon (Kanon, if you will) at best, non-kanon at worst, from my understanding

The connotation of both your posts is that I inteded to mislead, which was 100% not the case. I could have posted that feat at the beginning of any of Sub-Zero's fights, and especially this one, had I wanted to falsely boost Sub-Zero. The feat was in response to the claim that he can't manipulate ice in general - and the scan shows him doing that albeit using a tool that amps his powers. A power amped is not a new power. You could just have easily just have stuck to the facts and said that the feat is using amped power and then stated your view rather than levelling any form of accusation or commentary. It seems unnecessary, and out of place both in this post and most of our interactions so far. Then again - I have had a rough day at work so I could well have my hackles up for no reason at all! 

Anyway, I think we'll chalk this one up to difference of opinion. Without the dagger amping him, you are right: for the most part, the ice he controls is the one he creates from himself in battle. 

So instead I'll lean towards the other advantages (which I think you touched upon): movement on the ice, and resitance to cold. Sub-Zero takes that in both departments - he was resitant to Frost's cold, has ice around his arms, and lives happily in the cold mountains without any significant clothing, and he walks and slides on ice as part of his standard move set. 

 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Trevor Belmont: 2
Sub-Zero: 6