12:8 - Black Adam vs. Doctor Doom

[Twogunkid]

5 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

In DC vs Marvel, Thor used Mjolnir's magic to divert the magic lightning that powers Shazam. He used Marvel's magic to impact DC's magic. I see nothing to suggest that therefore magic in both universes works the same.

Similarly in JLA/Avengers, Wonder Woman's powers worked fine as well whilst having crossed over. 

DC vs Marvel is noncanon to both Marvel and DC.

JLA/Avengers is canon and establishes that magic is different between the Marvel and DC universes. Part 1 Part 2

 

 

 

[Culwych1]

11 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

DC vs Marvel is noncanon to both Marvel and DC.

JLA/Avengers is canon and establishes that magic is different between the Marvel and DC universes. Part 1 Part 2

Didn't realise the first was not cannon, although that makes perfect sense as didn't Wolverine beat Lobo 😆

The second I have read again, and it shows that magic works slightly differently, but it still works for a while! It actually amplifies Wanda's powers, and allows her to do what she needs to do and more. 

I'm slightly annoyed at myself for raising this in the first place. It is a moot point for the purpose of our discussion. There has to be a level playing field and we have to assume that each of the fighter's powers will affect each other. 

Otherwise we'd end up in crazy debates where flash couln't beat quicksilver because we could say the speed force doesn't work, or Dr Fate couldn't beat Baron Mordo because his spells wouldn't work against someone from a different universe. It cannot just be limited to physical feats. 

Dr Doom has spells that can steal magic, we have to assume they would work against his opponent in this case, just as his mind techniques would and tech etc. 

[Twogunkid]

6 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Didn't realise the first was not cannon, although that makes perfect sense as didn't Wolverine beat Lobo 😆

The second I have read again, and it shows that magic works slightly differently, but it still works for a while! It actually amplifies Wanda's powers, and allows her to do what she needs to do and more. 

I'm slightly annoyed at myself for raising this in the first place. It is a moot point for the purpose of our discussion. There has to be a level playing field and we have to assume that each of the fighter's powers will affect each other. 

Otherwise we'd end up in crazy debates where flash couln't beat quicksilver because we could say the speed force doesn't work, or Dr Fate couldn't beat Baron Mordo because his spells wouldn't work against someone from a different universe. It cannot just be limited to physical feats. 

Dr Doom has spells that can steal magic, we have to assume they would work against his opponent in this case, just as his mind techniques would and tech etc. 

Yeah 96' is non canon and was decided by fanvote.

I think it safe to assume a neutral playing field where each one's powers work as they do in their home universes.

[Twogunkid]

Also to the end of power theft, Black Adam is vulnerable to it as, Shazam has done it, but that could be discussed as a side effect of the nature of their similar/identical power sets

[DSkillz]

Here we go ...

9 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

From Shazam Wiki page about Black Adam: "H for the Swiftness of Heru: By channeling Heru's speed, Black Adam, on earth can fly and move at speeds in excess of Mach 10 (2.5 miles a second) and at the speed of light in space."

He has also been shown as moving at Mach 500 apparantely - a top speed for him. This is a fraction of light speed, and in this scenario they are on earth - so some sort of speed blitz isn't happening, and this also explains why he matches Hawkman. 

Again, though, in World War III, he goes toe-to-toe with several FTL characters such as Power Girl, several Flashes, and the entire Marvel Family (Shazam, Mary Marvel, etc), and none of them could stop him. If Mach 500 is supposedly a top speed for Adam, why is it also stated that he can reach the speed of light, and how can he go toe-to-toe with all those FTL'ers? Why would being on Earth suddenly be that much of a limiter for him?

As for the Hawkman fight, Adam seemed to be more focused on finding the Amulet of Isis and may not have been looking so much to kill. Hawkman also confronted Adam first, so he definitely had already prepped to fight Adam, which Doom won't have time to do here.

9 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Planet busting strength is definitely not proven. He is aiming to kill and doesn't kill many of those in that scan. 

As I already mentioned, though, he was being besieged by dozens of heroes (several of whom had powers on his level), so many of his full-force blows were likely blunted/misdirected/etc. Won't be the case in this fight.

9 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

The feat against Spectre is highly ambigious. We cannot draw any conclusions from how hard that speed punch was as it did no harm to Spectre at all (he referred to it as "being touched"!)

Spectre is still many levels of power above Celestials, though, and has tanked Darkseid's Omega Beams (who is also much stronger than Celestials at his best), so to punch through him at all is quite an accomplishment.

Besides, unlike base Doom, Spectre is an nigh-omnipotent entity, so it takes more than physical force to actually harm him.

9 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Doom withstood multiple Celestials power  - they definitely have an output higher than anything Black Adam has shown, and Doom tanked it. 

And again, Doom had the time to prep for that fight, which he won't have in this one.

9 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

So, the super speed is gone, as is the level of power needed to hurt Doom, certiainly immediately.

None of which you've proven here.

9 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

And then all it needs is a bit of time, and Doom can definitely harm Black Adam who can be affected by magic.

And again, against a full-force Adam, Doom won't have that time.

And ah, I couldn't fit the final part of your post in, but yes, that is some fine artwork of the Celestials.

[Peypeypeypey]

8 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

I'm slightly annoyed at myself for raising this in the first place. It is a moot point for the purpose of our discussion. There has to be a level playing field and we have to assume that each of the fighter's powers will affect each other. 

Otherwise we'd end up in crazy debates where flash couln't beat quicksilver because we could say the speed force doesn't work, or Dr Fate couldn't beat Baron Mordo because his spells wouldn't work against someone from a different universe. It cannot just be limited to physical feats. 

Dr Doom has spells that can steal magic, we have to assume they would work against his opponent in this case, just as his mind techniques would and tech etc. 

No, this is just completely wrong. The question isn't "can Doom sometimes steal powers," the question was "Can Dr. Doom steal the powers of someone as powerful as Black Adam without prep?" The answer, as far as you've demonstrated, is no. All of Doom's best feats of stealing powers are with a lot of prep, and he's never, as far as you've shown, been able to successfully do it to someone so strong, so fast, and so powerful, without a lot of prep. To put it into perspective, Doom needed a trap and to prep a device to steal Silver Surfer's power. Silver Surfer is a tier lower than Black Adam on the Vs Battle Wiki. I know the VBW isn't a good indicator of power, but it drives the point home. Without prep, Doom has NEVER stolen powers from anyone as strong as Black Adam

[Culwych1]

Quote

My point is very simple: Magic has very different rules in Dc and in Marvel, so saying that someone can steal a DC character's magic just because they can steal a Marvel character's magic doesn't really make sense. 

4 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

No, this is just completely wrong. The question isn't "can Doom sometimes steal powers," the question was "Can Dr. Doom steal the powers of someone as powerful as Black Adam without prep?" 

I feel the goalposts moved slightly on this one. 

But we have demonstrated that he has spells that he can cast to remove people's magic, and current Doom has power siphoning built into his armour - able to siphon power from Franklin Richards.... who is pretty powerful. 

I've already posted other scans showing that when his built tech failed, he could resort to his armour to drain power as well. 

[Culwych1]

8 hours ago, DSkillz said:

-cut-

Some guesswork there about Black Adam's top speed (which I quoted from a Marvel wiki) and the feat against Spectre, but the only way really for me to address them is to repeat what has already been said. 

I'm fairly happy with us both having put our points across. 

But in any case, I think the argument is easily in Doom's favour... because FOOL!  DOCTOR DOOM TOOTS WHEN HE WANTS TO. 😄

 

[Peypeypeypey]

6 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

I feel the goalposts moved slightly on this one. 

But we have demonstrated that he has spells that he can cast to remove people's magic, and current Doom has power siphoning built into his armour - able to siphon power from Franklin Richards.... who is pretty powerful. 

I've already posted other scans showing that when his built tech failed, he could resort to his armour to drain power as well. 

I should have clarified here. It's not that I'm shifting the goalposts. I still wholeheartedly believe that just because you can steal magic from a Marvel sorcerer, there's no good reason to think you can do the same to a DC sorcerer. Their magic comes from entirely different sources and has entirely different rules. My point was that even if I agreed, Doom still hasn't ever shown the power to steal from someone as strong as BA before without prep. The Franklin Richards feat was with prep

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Black Adam: 11
Doctor Doom: 2

[Culwych1]

[DSkillz]

2 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

BTW, the moment I saw that both Bladam and Doom were in the Draft, I was immediately reminded of a short fic I read a good while back, before I even knew of EF: 

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/3079821/1/Comic-Battle-1-Doctor-Doom-vs-Black-Adam