The Perfect Team: The Villains Finals (Skirmisher)

[Nesh]

As it does not Actually contradict the Higher Canon Source it is therefore Canon, and supplements the Full Canon of the Series.

The very name of the technique tells you what itis!

 

This isn't Star Wars those EU rules don't apply, if they did Brolly would be cannon.

[Skirmisher]

The very name of the technique tells you what itis!

 

This isn't Star Wars those EU rules don't apply, if they did Brolly would be cannon.

But Brolly Does contradict Main Canon. He cannot be canon as the timing for the Movie doesn't add up right.

 

As for the the Naming of it, how sure are you that Both the Kai's and Goku's techniques are the same? Goku's IT may have been Improperly Translated as "Instant Movement". It was only stated to be "Shukidan Idou" and can you speak Japanese? A good way to confirm what you want with this is to actually go and find something that the Kai says to Link these two moves, anything less would be folly on your part to continue this line of questioning.

[Guest DataSnake]

1. The screwy SW "canon" rules don't fit here.

2. If IT was, as the dub claims, simply breakdown-to-light-and-reassemble teleportation, it would not be able to reach the other world AT ALL. It is therefore a form of dimension-hopping, is not limited to light speed, and can be faster than super-speed without taking away the FTL nature of DBZ characters' movement.

3. Your argument that speed need not be multiplicative does not hold. If it were additive, as little as a 1% speed increase would make someone faster than sight on the high end of things. This is patently absurd. However, being four times as fast as someone WOULD make you faster than sight, no matter how fast the initial speed under consideration.

4. Goodnight. We can continue this tomorrow.

[Guest AKUMA]

But Brolly Does contradict Main Canon. He cannot be canon as the timing for the Movie doesn't add up right.

 

As for the the Naming of it, how sure are you that Both the Kai's and Goku's techniques are the same? Goku's IT may have been Improperly Translated as "Instant Movement". It was only stated to be "Shukidan Idou" and can you speak Japanese? A good way to confirm what you want with this is to actually go and find something that the Kai says to Link these two moves, anything less would be folly on your part to continue this line of questioning.

okay i know im interfering a little but lets see.....

 

broly isnt canon, but the movie actually could line up with the main canon...if the broly movie is taking place within the 9 days of rest in the cell games.then timing is good.

[IKA]

1: Since Horus has the power of the chaos gods, that would give him well over the Ki of Mystic Buu, and by both loghic Vegito would take him first! And then its Vegito vs. Mystic Buu.

 

SSJ3 Goku, SS2 Vegeta, SSJ3 Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, Piccolo, and Buu vs. Kid Buu

 

Without the spirit bomb they still win.

 

2: Sephiroth, Darth Reven, Tartarus, and Sylar are all taken by Cell Jrs.

 

3: Doom is taken by Cell.

 

Z team wins.

[Nesh]

1: Since Horus has the power of the chaos gods, that would give him well over the Ki of Mystic Buu, and by both loghic Vegito would take him first!

 

 

 

 

2: Sephiroth, Darth Reven, Tartarus, and Sylar are all taken by Cell Jrs.

 

3: Doom is taken by Cell.

 

Z team wins.

Cell could also absorb Horus...

[Skirmisher]

1. The screwy SW "canon" rules don't fit here.

2. If IT was, as the dub claims, simply breakdown-to-light-and-reassemble teleportation, it would not be able to reach the other world AT ALL. It is therefore a form of dimension-hopping, is not limited to light speed, and can be faster than super-speed without taking away the FTL nature of DBZ characters' movement.

3. Your argument that speed need not be multiplicative does not hold. If it were additive, as little as a 1% speed increase would make someone faster than sight on the high end of things. This is patently absurd. However, being four times as fast as someone WOULD make you faster than sight, no matter how fast the initial speed under consideration.

4. Goodnight. We can continue this tomorrow.

1) The SW Canon rules were made for a Continuity that has multiple level of what is Canon... The way I see it this also applies to DBZ, as there is the Manga (G Canon) then there is the Anime (C Canon) and then there is the Movies and Specials (S Canon). It just makes sense to put a good system of Canon into place for such a multi-layered Canon.

 

2) That's what I'm saying, but the simple fact remains that when IT was used it allowed Goku to Travel to the other side of the World in under a second and back, and that Amazed Vegeta the next fasted person there. Which would mean that Super Speed Cannot Travel that fast, which would mean that Non of the Uber Speed Calcs for the Frieza Saga are relevant or applicable.

 

3) Not necessarily. If say A had to move at 25 m/s to be faster than sight, then B may possibly have to move at 50 m/s to be faster than A's sight, and for C to be faster than B's sight he would only have to move at 75 m/s, not 100 m/s. When we actually get into the higher levels instead of being OVER 9000!!!!! times faster than Light they are only a couple Mach or at the Very Most Light, and that's only at the very end of the series... convenient how it fits with the Word of God statement of only just Light Speed.

 

4) Very well, a short breather for consolidation.

 

 

okay i know im interfering a little but lets see.....

 

broly isnt canon, but the movie actually could line up with the main canon...if the broly movie is taking place within the 9 days of rest in the cell games.then timing is good.

However there is also the fact that Never in the main Continuity do the Z-Fighters ever Talk about that Extremely tough fight they had against that Other Saiyan that just poped up out of the blue. The Major Villain that hated Goku so much he could destroy whole Galaxies... and not a word about it after the fact... Besides, Goku said that the 9 days of rest were just that for Gohan and he, as they had just spent 2 Years Straight Training in the HbTC, AND were getting used to maintaining SSJ in a constant state. Besides, there was some material that fit in there as well that cuts down on the 9 days that were supposed to be in there, further limiting the time allowed. In addition to the fact that they would have had to Recover from that hard fight that nearly killed the lot of them...

[IKA]

Also, it wasn't stated by Akira that they could only move at the speed of light.

 

He said, that it was torublesome to write as they were running around at ligh speeds.

 

That implies that when they are moving from one place to the next they are moving at at least lightspeed. That means at full speed, they are able to move several times faster than the speed of light.

[IKA]

Also IT moving at only Light speed was a dub error. Skirm you have argued this as well, I didn't think you were one to contradict yourself in other battles..

[Skirmisher]

1: Since Horus has the power of the chaos gods, that would give him well over the Ki of Mystic Buu

 

2: Sephiroth, Darth Reven, Tartarus, and Sylar are all taken by Cell Jrs.

 

3: Doom is taken by Cell.

 

Z team wins.

Cell could also absorb Horus...

1) Chaos Gods do not work on the Same level as DBZ. They have Magic and they have Psychic abilities, and they themselves are Powerful Alien Intelligences from what would be considered the Astral Plane of 40K... But they do not have such an abundant supply of Ki. Besides, If he did have that reserve of Ki then he would be a much better Physical Fighter by DBZ standards, and with Buu could easily take Vegito on, Especially if he allowed himself to be absorbed by him... But you'd say that Horus is too slow... Not when you have just given him Such a Large Amount of Ki to use!

 

2) Yet I have explained that Cell would not use Cell Jr.s as that is too high of a technique for what he would see as unworthy fighters. His cockyness would get the better of him, and that would allow Revan and Seph to Slow him down with the Force and Magic (Like I stated before) Allowing DOOM to both syphon Ki off of Cell and then use it to fuel his Magics to Utterly Anhilate Cell.

 

Or Doom Takes Cell over by Transferring his consciousness into Cell, thus Winning that fight in an instant.

 

"The alien Ovoids taught Doom the process of psionically transferring his consciousness into another nearby being through a simple eye contact"

 

3) Doom would be Cell, and Sylar and Tartarus would look after the empty shell of metal armour as Doom spits out an army of Doom Jr's to Swarm Vegeto and help Buu and Horus win... not that they need it.

 

4) Super Perfect Cell doesn't use Absorb alot, he sees no need to. It's like saying that Kid Buu would Absorb Everyone he sees, just because he can absorb.

 

Once Again My team wins with a Flawless Victory.

[Nesh]

Also, it wasn't stated by Akira that they could only move at the speed of light.

 

He said, that it was torublesome to write as they were running around at ligh speeds.

 

That implies that when they are moving from one place to the next they are moving at at least lightspeed. That means at full speed, they are able to move several times faster than the speed of light.

He's right DBZ combat speeds make non-IT movement speeds look incredibly slow. Not to mention IT can be used in combat.

[Skirmisher]

He's right DBZ combat speeds make non-IT movement speeds look incredibly slow. Not to mention IT can be used in combat.

No, you are wrong... I have the cutting of that quote.

 

 

"Nirazaki: Many fans have given positive feedback over the Majin Buu period. The inclusion of fusion was an unexpected twist. What gave you the idea?

 

Toriyama-san: Well in order to have a villain with so much strength, you need someone around that can rival him. Majin Buu is incredibly strong. Its not easy to create a character that can keep up. So I thought of making the characters fuse to create new characters without taking the focus off the main characters.

 

Nirazaki: There have been many changes since the Saiya-jins came to earth. Do you ever think about the progress?

Toriyama-san: Yes I do. Doragonboru has come a long way. They went from running at super speed to moving at the speed of light! (Laughs) "

 

Notice that they were Running at super speed to Moving at Light.

 

 

Edit: [grumble, grumble]

[IKA]

1) Chaos Gods do not work on the Same level as DBZ. They have Magic and they have Psychic abilities, and they themselves are Powerful Alien Intelligences from what would be considered the Astral Plane of 40K... But they do not have such an abundant supply of Ki. Besides, If he did have that reserve of Ki then he would be a much better Physical Fighter by DBZ standards, and with Buu could easily take Vegito on, Especially if he allowed himself to be absorbed by him... But you'd say that Horus is too slow... Not when you have just given him Such a Large Amount of Ki to use!

 

2) Yet I have explained that Cell would not use Cell Jr.s as that is too high of a technique for what he would see as unworthy fighters. His cockyness would get the better of him, and that would allow Revan and Seph to Slow him down with the Force and Magic (Like I stated before) Allowing DOOM to both syphon Ki off of Cell and then use it to fuel his Magics to Utterly Anhilate Cell.

 

Or Doom Takes Cell over by Transferring his consciousness into Cell, thus Winning that fight in an instant.

 

"The alien Ovoids taught Doom the process of psionically transferring his consciousness into another nearby being through a simple eye contact"

 

3) Doom would be Cell, and Sylar and Tartarus would look after the empty shell of metal armour as Doom spits out an army of Doom Jr's to Swarm Vegeto and help Buu and Horus win... not that they need it.

 

4) Super Perfect Cell doesn't use Absorb alot, he sees no need to. It's like saying that Kid Buu would Absorb Everyone he sees, just because he can absorb.

 

Once Again My team wins with a Flawless Victory.

 

 

1) That's not true at all, Horus himself wouldn't be that powerful, but the precence of the gods would make him seem more powerfull than he actually is. Also everyone has Ki like it or not, it is a true belief that would mean Horus has Ki as well.

 

2) That is precisley why Cell would use his Cell jrs, as he doesn't feel the need to waste his time on the weaker beings. But, seeing Doom defeat one (if he could), Cell would be prone to attack Doom and finish the Job.

 

3) Out of the question.

 

4) Again, not in question.

 

Our team wins with MABYE one death.

[treacherous]

86 comments in a few hours. I'll be putting the poll up soon. Geez.

[Guest AKUMA]

1) The SW Canon rules were made for a Continuity that has multiple level of what is Canon... The way I see it this also applies to DBZ, as there is the Manga (G Canon) then there is the Anime (C Canon) and then there is the Movies and Specials (S Canon). It just makes sense to put a good system of Canon into place for such a multi-layered Canon.

 

2) That's what I'm saying, but the simple fact remains that when IT was used it allowed Goku to Travel to the other side of the World in under a second and back, and that Amazed Vegeta the next fasted person there. Which would mean that Super Speed Cannot Travel that fast, which would mean that Non of the Uber Speed Calcs for the Frieza Saga are relevant or applicable.

 

3) Not necessarily. If say A had to move at 25 m/s to be faster than sight, then B may possibly have to move at 50 m/s to be faster than A's sight, and for C to be faster than B's sight he would only have to move at 75 m/s, not 100 m/s. When we actually get into the higher levels instead of being OVER 9000!!!!! times faster than Light they are only a couple Mach or at the Very Most Light, and that's only at the very end of the series... convenient how it fits with the Word of God statement of only just Light Speed.

 

4) Very well, a short breather for consolidation.

 

 

 

However there is also the fact that Never in the main Continuity do the Z-Fighters ever Talk about that Extremely tough fight they had against that Other Saiyan that just poped up out of the blue. The Major Villain that hated Goku so much he could destroy whole Galaxies... and not a word about it after the fact... Besides, Goku said that the 9 days of rest were just that for Gohan and he, as they had just spent 2 Years Straight Training in the HbTC, AND were getting used to maintaining SSJ in a constant state. Besides, there was some material that fit in there as well that cuts down on the 9 days that were supposed to be in there, further limiting the time allowed. In addition to the fact that they would have had to Recover from that hard fight that nearly killed the lot of them...

of course they dont mention the fight, "it never really happened"..

 

i said the broly movie COULD fit in the canon..of course it didnt, but it could..

there are alot of things in the movie that make big differences in the series but that wasnt really the point of the disagreement...i just implyed that out of all the non canon movies a few(including this one COULD actually fit in the canon despite minor inconsistancies..with the main continuity).

u stated that it wouldnt fit due to the timing not adding up...the timing would add up..but with all or most non canon things, there are inconsistancies....but this one is more likely to be able to fit than some of the rest of the movies....

 

and for the last comment about the recovering, they could have used senzu beans....heals ya right up.

[Guest ricrery]

Something just hit me with this Horus talk, what if he summoned a warp storm? And sent the planet towards the EoT? That would be very one sided however, as in "Daemon World" by Ben Counter, a Greater Daemon is able to make a planet bleed just by muttering to himself and gesturing his hands. The strongest Daemon in history could get its back broken on a primarch's knee (besides Angron and other primarch daemons) and Horus is a super Chaos Primarch, he would have control over the planet like a man has control over a light switch. That is, if he is allowed/can to/do it.

[Guest Zreth]

86 comments in a few hours. I'll be putting the poll up soon. Geez.

Yeah I know!

[IKA]

No, you are wrong... I have the cutting of that quote.

 

 

"Nirazaki: Many fans have given positive feedback over the Majin Buu period. The inclusion of fusion was an unexpected twist. What gave you the idea?

 

Toriyama-san: Well in order to have a villain with so much strength, you need someone around that can rival him. Majin Buu is incredibly strong. Its not easy to create a character that can keep up. So I thought of making the characters fuse to create new characters without taking the focus off the main characters.

 

Nirazaki: There have been many changes since the Saiya-jins came to earth. Do you ever think about the progress?

Toriyama-san: Yes I do. Doragonboru has come a long way. They went from running at super speed to moving at the speed of light! (Laughs) "

 

Notice that they were Running at super speed to Moving at Light.

 

 

Edit: [grumble, grumble]

 

 

It appears I was mistaken. But in anycase, He wasn't acting seriously hence the laugh. Also that was a quick conversation and wasn't very detailed.

 

Also if you wan't to take it literally, The fly faster than they run.

 

Edit: Also Skirm, you have also argued about them being FTL speeds. Why do you contradict when defending?

[Skirmisher]

1) That's not true at all, Horus himself wouldn't be that powerful, but the precence of the gods would make him seem more powerfull than he actually is. Also everyone has Ki like it or not, it is a true belief that would mean Horus has Ki as well.

 

2) That is precisley why Cell would use his Cell jrs, as he doesn't feel the need to waste his time on the weaker beings. But, seeing Doom defeat one (if he could), Cell would be prone to attack Doom and finish the Job.

 

3) Out of the question.

 

4) Again, not in question.

 

Our team wins with MABYE one death.

1) But the Gods aren't there, there presence is not required, just their Boons. As for any Ki that Horus has, well yes he does. But Like I said before, Horus would not have the Sheer amounts of Ki that Vegito would consider a threat. He would sense the Ki of the group and only see Buu as a Dominant Threat. Knowing the Mentality of Vegito he would go after the highest amount of Ki first as that's what he knows best.

 

2) Actually Like I said before Revan and Seph slow Cell and Doom Takes over his body. He then tells the Jr.s to stop and tells them to change their target to Vegeto and then proceds to pump out more and more and more until Cell is a dried up Husk, then he goes back to that familiar Metal Plated body and KO's Cell in his weakened stated.

 

3) How is that out of the question? That is exactly what would happen.

 

4) I wasn't directing that at you, notice the fact that I also Quoted Nesh, and that is True as well.

 

One death is also Half your Team, but you will loose BOTH to my Team, and I will Loose None.

[Skirmisher]

It appears I was mistaken. But in anycase, He wasn't acting seriously hence the laugh. Also that was a quick conversation and wasn't very detailed.

 

Also if you wan't to take it literally, The fly faster than they run.

But Moving is Moving, and that's how they were as Fast as Light. Since he never stated that the Ran at light speed that means that their Maximum Speed was Light, regardless of Running or Flying, or Fighting.

[Guest ricrery]

Poor Reven, he is being ignored, I'll help him out.

 

Reven is stronger than Nihilus who could kill a planet's populace just by stepping onto the planet. Reven, was also the strongest Sith of his time. He was probably a threat to people who could make supernovas (canon wise the Z-fighters have never destroyed planets more than once at time), and he had the entire Sith army on his side. He could easily possess Vegito or Cell (Jrs. too) with ease considering Luke himself can get possessed by other force users even when he's incredibly powerful compared to his movie incarnations. He probably could make wormholes and meditate to increase his servants power. He probably is very deadly as a glass cannon, not to mention, if he dies, he can possess Vegito or Cell.

[Nesh]

It appears I was mistaken. But in anycase, He wasn't acting seriously hence the laugh. Also that was a quick conversation and wasn't very detailed.

 

Also if you wan't to take it literally, The fly faster than they run.

 

Edit: Also Skirm, you have also argued about them being FTL speeds. Why do you contradict when defending?

Skrimisher, I believe this would be the Word of God you're reffering to:

 

Project Fanboy has yet to uncover whether the article is legit or simply a hoax a DBZ fanboy may have put on the internet to defend their case in the ongoing "Are DBZers FTL?" debate.

 

 

 

Quote:

Akira Toriyama Interview by Nirazaki Tihashiberi

Super Otaku Magazine Issue #297

 

Toriyama-san has agreed to answer some questions for us today. Much thanks to Toriyama-san after the craze on the Majin Buu period. (Do note that this was not a cover story, and thus, short).

 

Nirazaki: Many fans have given positive feedback over the Majin Buu period. The inclusion of fusion was an unexpected twist. What gave you the idea?

 

Toriyama-san: Well in order to have a villain with so much strength, you need someone around that can rival him. Majin Buu is incredibly strong. Its not easy to create a character that can keep up. So I thought of making the characters fuse to create new characters without taking the focus off the main characters.

 

Nirazaki: There have been many changes since the Saiya-jins came to earth. Do you ever think about the progress?

 

Toriyama-san: Yes I do. Doragonboru has come a long way. They went from running at super speed to moving at the speed of light! (Laughs)

 

Nirazaki: There was uproar over the rematch between Son Goku and Bejita. Were you planning this the entire time?

 

Toriyama-san: (Laughs) It was more of a crowd pleaser. Son Gokuu and Bejita didnt have the opportunity to fight in the Seru period, and with a new saga to start with, it would not be hard to work in that kind of battle.

 

Nirazaki: You've been telling everyone how this is the end. Will Doragonboru really end after Majin Buu?

 

Toriyama-san: Yes. Ive put so much time on Doragonboru I cant do much else. I never expected Doragonboru to be this long in the first place. I think its been concluded on a high note.

 

After all, if I had my way, I'd of ended the manga after the Freeza period! (Laughs)

 

Nirazaki: You like to laugh about this a lot. Will parting with Doragonboru be difficult?

 

Toriyama-san: On one side, Im relieved. On the other side, its like seeing a child move away.

 

Nirazaki: I know that a lot of people want to hear more about fusion. With Gotenkusu now in the story, will he play that big of a role? And most of all, is he stronger than Son Goku himself?

 

Toriyama-san: Well I dont know yet. Ive planned some things with Gotenkusu, but he wont be the focus of the entire saga. Youll see as things develop. As for their strength, Gotenkusu is a little bit stronger, but you wouldnt notice a difference. Still, Son Goku will always be the most skilled martial artist! (Smiles) But Gotenkusu will not be the only person to go higher than son Goku.

 

Nirazaki: What does that last part mean?

 

Toriyama-san: You'll find out.

 

Nirazaki: Ill remember that! One last question.

 

Toriyama-san: Make it good, you wont get a second chance! Kidding, Ill see you again.

 

Nirazaki: Is Son Goku dead forever? He has come back before, but it looks like hes out of lives.

 

Toriyama-san: I dont want to shift the focus, so I have to keep certain things close to their roots. Son Goku will have his day, but right now its up to "Super Gotenkusu!".

 

This interview was conducted by Super Otaku Magazine, I looked it up, guess what: it doesn't exsist! This supposed magazine boasts two interviews with Toriyama-sama which by logic would mean it's a major mainstream magazine but it has surprising lick of even ahalf-assed wiki article and all links inculding it on Google are either the interview or people debunking it. The closest I got to a real magazin was Otaku Magazine USA. Toriyama-sama is in Japan, a little far away to be giving short interviews for an American magazine; it's just not cost effective. Moving on.

[IKA]

But Moving is Moving, and that's how they were as Fast as Light. Since he never stated that the Ran at light speed that means that their Maximum Speed was Light, regardless of Running or Flying, or Fighting.

 

 

Please read my edit.

 

You have just used to things that you argue against all the time.

 

You arguing this makes it contradictory for all your former arguments. Are you ready to throw that all away for this silly little game?

[Nesh]

Please read my edit.

 

You have just used to things that you argue against all the time.

 

You arguing this makes it contradictory for all your former arguments. Are you ready to throw that all away for this silly little game?

It doesn't matter, I just blew his "Word of God" out of the water, the statement he's been using to confine us to lightspeed is fake.

[Guest ricrery]

It doesn't matter, I just blew his "Word of God" out of the water, the statement he's been using to confine us to lightspeed is fake.

 

Good, but Vegito IT through warp storms? Warp storms are black hole level you know.