The Perfect Team: The Villains Finals (Skirmisher)

[Skirmisher]

Proof he can do it instantly as Horus can mind *insensitivity* him?

Horus flayed a terminator with but a glance, that was just off hand and he wasn't even thinking about it, it just came naturally to the situation.

 

 

A mid *insensitivity* requires a thought can he think at several time lightspeed? Vegito is FTL, requiring faster thoughts to compensate for the speed.

Actually, Vegito is not several times faster than Light Speed... (I really didn't want to play this card), because at most he is only Light Speed. This is word of god, and stated by Akira Toriyama that only at the Buu saga did they even get close to Light Speed.

 

Besides, their fights always stretch out to much longer than a Fraction of a Split Second. And it is plainly evident that they are not fighting at Light Speed all the time as Explosions happen at real time, and not in what should be super slow motion. This would mean that only while they do that disapearing flashing fighting they are fighting at what is said to be Light Speed, and not any time else.

 

Then we go to Horus, he was a Primarch before being gifted with the powers of Chaos. Primarchs and their Counter Part among the forces of Chaos (Greater Daemons) are exceptionally Fast creatures, Even faster than their Genetically advanced Troops the Space Marines who themselves are much faster than regular Trained Humans.

 

Now we will lump on him all the advantages of Chaos.

 

This one in particular: Daemonic Speed gives the recipient supernatural movement speed.

 

So already he was quite fast, and now he is even faster, quite fast enough to target with Mind *insensitivity* and get it off, especially since Buu is keeping him occupied.

[Skirmisher]

Fine then Cell uses the Evil Containment Wave on him or Vegito blows him sky high.

On whom? and that would kill Cell. After that the Container could easily break and release my fighter to fight again! Remember I out number you, and even though Tartarus is a non-factor in the actual fighting, he can still play support, and with that Grav hammer he can capture any object on the battlefield and Smash it quite easily.

[Guest Zreth]

I wish I was fighting against your team Skirm...

[Nesh]

On whom? and that would kill Cell. After that the Container could easily break and release my fighter to fight again! Remember I out number you, and even though Tartarus is a non-factor in the actual fighting, he can still play support, and with that Grav hammer he can capture any object on the battlefield and Smash it quite easily.

That's the beauty of it Piccolo used it and didn't die so Cell wouldn't either.

 

As for your word of God no one could actuall find a source the proved the authenticity of that interview and we can argue quitte convincingly otherwise.

[Skirmisher]

That's the beauty of it Piccolo used it and didn't die so Cell wouldn't either.

 

As for your word of God no one could actuall find a source the proved the authenticity of that interview and we can argue quitte convincingly otherwise.

However you still run into the Wall that everyone else runs into when attempting to prove DBZ Speed Feats. That wall is that it isn't actually Shown in Canon. Seriously, alot of Really good Speed Feats from the Freiza Saga are rendered Moot by the simple fact that Goku demonstrates IT, and States that it is only Light Speed at that moment. Vegeta scoffs saying that it is only Super Speed, and then is amazed that it is Faster than Super Speed. Meaning that even with IT back when it was just learned and only Light Speed, it was still Faster than all the other Speeds that were shown in the Frieza Saga, meaning that the Escaping the Bubble Feat, the Space Ship and King Kai feat, the 5 minutes exploded across several episodes feat... is all moot...

[Nesh]

However you still run into the Wall that everyone else runs into when attempting to prove DBZ Speed Feats. That wall is that it isn't actually Shown in Canon. Seriously, alot of Really good Speed Feats from the Freiza Saga are rendered Moot by the simple fact that Goku demonstrates IT, and States that it is only Light Speed at that moment. Vegeta scoffs saying that it is only Super Speed, and then is amazed that it is Faster than Super Speed. Meaning that even with IT back when it was just learned and only Light Speed, it was still Faster than all the other Speeds that were shown in the Frieza Saga, meaning that the Escaping the Bubble Feat, the Space Ship and King Kai feat, the 5 minutes exploded across several episodes feat... is all moot...

IT bein Lightspeed was a dub error sorry.

[Skirmisher]

IT bein Lightspeed was a dub error sorry.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Instant_Transmission

 

"Goku describes the technique as allowing him to move at the speed of light (specifically 186,000 miles per second)"

 

The next line makes sense when you consider the fact that between the first showing of IT, and when it was shown again to be faster, Goku had Lots of Training... Training to Improve his Techniques...

 

 

As for Dubbing Error, the only one mentioned is that of Raditz, and the Statment of Piccolo saying he was faster than Light. If the Wiki had the info to mention that then they should have also had the Info to mention any sort of Dubbing Error with IT...

[Nesh]

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Instant_Transmission

 

"Goku describes the technique as allowing him to move at the speed of light (specifically 186,000 miles per second)"

 

The next line makes sense when you consider the fact that between the first showing of IT, and when it was shown again to be faster, Goku had Lots of Training... Training to Improve his Techniques...

 

 

As for Dubbing Error, the only one mentioned is that of Raditz, and the Statment of Piccolo saying he was faster than Light. If the Wiki had the info to mention that then they should have also had the Info to mention any sort of Dubbing Error with IT...

From the same source:

 

Goku describes the technique as allowing him to move at the speed of light (specifically 186,000 miles per second), but this is clearly inaccurate given his use of the technique to travel from Earth to New Namek and to King Kai's planet in Other World. The planets mentions are lightyears apart and Goku could go from one to the other in seconds. Whereas in the dub Goku says that his body becomes a beam of light which does have a constant speed 186,000 miles per second but to travel between the three planet mentioned as fast as he did IT would have to be FTL.

[Skirmisher]

From the same source:

 

Goku describes the technique as allowing him to move at the speed of light (specifically 186,000 miles per second), but this is clearly inaccurate given his use of the technique to travel from Earth to New Namek and to King Kai's planet in Other World. The planets mentions are lightyears apart and Goku could go from one to the other in seconds. Whereas in the dub Goku says that his body becomes a beam of light which does have a constant speed 186,00 miles per second but to travel between the three planet mentioned as fast as he did IT would have to be FTL.

Yet I recall mentioning this multiple times, that IT when first Shown was Faster than Super Speed, BUT only Light Speed. This still makes sense when confronted with the facts of Fast IT later in the series, as GOKU HAD LOTS OF TIME TO TRAIN HIS ABILITIES... This includes IT.

 

So at the time it was first shown Goku states that it was only Light Speed.

This was at that time Faster than Super Speed, and thus mooting all the other speed feats which were to prove FTL speeds from the Fireza Saga.

Later when Goku Trained his Techniques, his IT becomes Faster allowing for this many Light Year trips in a few seconds.

[Nesh]

Yet I recall mentioning this multiple times, that IT when first Shown was Faster than Super Speed, BUT only Light Speed. This still makes sense when confronted with the facts of Fast IT later in the series, as GOKU HAD LOTS OF TIME TO TRAIN HIS ABILITIES... This includes IT.

 

So at the time it was first shown Goku states that it was only Light Speed.

This was at that time Faster than Super Speed, and thus mooting all the other speed feats which were to prove FTL speeds from the Fireza Saga.

Later when Goku Trained his Techniques, his IT becomes Faster allowing for this many Light Year trips in a few seconds.

Wrong at the time Goku first shows IT in the English dub his exact word are when describing the technique are: you dematerialize and travel as beam of light. Again those are his exact words. A mass of light would move at the speed of light which is constant. No matter how much you train you can't make a mass of light go faster, there fore it's a dub error.

 

I can even give you a link that shows tthese are Goku's exact words:

 

The very scene.

[Skirmisher]

So I state Again the way the Battle will go down...

 

Vegito and Cell see my fighters, Vegito being Cells superior will pick out the Best fighter on my team using his Ki Senses. That fighter would be Super Buu, and they would fight, much like they do in the series. Vegito with all that cocky attitude (Thank you Vegeta!) he will toy with Buu, demonstrating his most obvious Superiority.

 

This will allow Horus (guided by Tzeentch for the Win) to Mind *insensitivity* Vegito while his back is turned and fighting Buu.

 

Meanwhile: Cell

 

 

Cell sees a rabble of weaklings in front of him. He would not stoop to any sort of Big Technique in the face of such lack of power, and he would play with them like he played with all the other weaker fighters in the series. This would be his down fall (Even though PIS is thrown in the CBUB, CIS is not!) As such Seph and Revan Slow Cell down to managable levels as Doom Nukes him with the Ki he's siphoning off of him coupled with all the Magic he can muster.

[Nesh]

So I state Again the way the Battle will go down...

 

Vegito and Cell see my fighters, Vegito being Cells superior will pick out the Best fighter on my team using his Ki Senses. That fighter would be Super Buu, and they would fight, much like they do in the series. Vegito with all that cocky attitude (Thank you Vegeta!) he will toy with Buu, demonstrating his most obvious Superiority.

 

This will allow Horus (guided by Tzeentch for the Win) to Mind *insensitivity* Vegito while his back is turned and fighting Buu.

 

Meanwhile: Cell

 

 

Cell sees a rabble of weaklings in front of him. He would not stoop to any sort of Big Technique in the face of such lack of power, and he would play with them like he played with all the other weaker fighters in the series. This would be his down fall (Even though PIS is thrown in the CBUB, CIS is not!) As such Seph and Revan Slow Cell down to managable levels as Doom Nukes him with the Ki he's siphoning off of him coupled with all the Magic he can muster.

Wait so you're saying Buu is Stronger than Horus?

[Skirmisher]

Wrong at the time Goku first shows IT in the English dub his exact word are when describing the technique are: you dematerialize and travel as beam of light. Again those are his exact words. A mass of light would move at the speed of light which is constant. No matter how much you train you can't make a mass of light go faster, there fore it's a dub error.

 

I can even give you a link that shows tthese are Goku's exact words:

 

The very scene.

He actually States the Speed in that clip!

 

That it is only 186,000 miles per second!

 

Thank you for finding evidence for me.

 

 

As for his improving on it, I'm sure that he could have done it some way, since after Frieza they kinda threw out any logic they had with the series. As well, even when Goku was shown to be much faster than light when he used IT again he still made a top over in the other world before going to Namek. We do not know the actual distance Traveled because of this, and the fact that he traveled like that means that he could theoretically travel at multiples of the speed of light, without actually going FTL. He would use it like a Wormhole shortcutting through the other world to cut the distance down and make it seem faster!

[Guest MarvelFan15]

Actually, Vegito is not several times faster than Light Speed... (I really didn't want to play this card), because at most he is only Light Speed. This is word of god, and stated by Akira Toriyama that only at the Buu saga did they even get close to Light Speed.

 

Besides, their fights always stretch out to much longer than a Fraction of a Split Second. And it is plainly evident that they are not fighting at Light Speed all the time as Explosions happen at real time, and not in what should be super slow motion. This would mean that only while they do that disapearing flashing fighting they are fighting at what is said to be Light Speed, and not any time else.

 

*Chokes on Coke, and sputters.*

 

*Stares on in disbelief*

 

Did Skirmisher just...He just...Admitted DBZ isn't lightspeed? I...Wow!

 

Wrong at the time Goku first shows IT in the English dub his exact word are when describing the technique are: you dematerialize and travel as beam of light. Again those are his exact words. A mass of light would move at the speed of light which is constant. No matter how much you train you can't make a mass of light go faster, there fore it's a dub error.

 

 

Then...assuming the speed of light is the limit, how do the other characters manage to go so fast? What exactly does he dematerialize into to make him go faster than light?

[Guest DataSnake]

A few points to remember:

 

1. Vegito can easily move at 200,000c. That is a BARE MINIMUM. The IT thing is a dub error. Everyone except Buu and maybe Horus would be dead before they could blink.

 

2. Vegito was deliberately trying to goad Buu into absorbing him. Both Goku and Vegeta are quite capable of finishing off an enemy quickly if necessary.

 

3. Super Perfect Cell has learned his lesson from almost getting killed by Gohan, and is not about to underestimate his opponents.

 

4. Both characters have massive degrees of Saiyan blood, meaning they will be immune to mind control.

[Nesh]

He actually States the Speed in that clip!

 

That it is only 186,000 miles per second!

 

Thank you for finding evidence for me.

 

 

As for his improving on it, I'm sure that he could have done it some way, since after Frieza they kinda threw out any logic they had with the series. As well, even when Goku was shown to be much faster than light when he used IT again he still made a top over in the other world before going to Namek. We do not know the actual distance Traveled because of this, and the fact that he traveled like that means that he could theoretically travel at multiples of the speed of light, without actually going FTL. He would use it like a Wormhole shortcutting through the other world to cut the distance down and make it seem faster!

The point of showing that to you was to prove it was a dub error, he describes the nature of the technique and it says you become light, the speed of light is constant, unchangable. King Kai's planet is nowhere near Earth and is several lightyears away as is Namek. It's a dub error.

[Nesh]

Then...assuming the speed of light is the limit, how do the other characters manage to go so fast? What exactly does he dematerialize into to make him go faster than light?

Exactly my point.

[Skirmisher]

A few points to remember:

 

1. Vegito can easily move at 200,000c. That is a BARE MINIMUM. The IT thing is a dub error. Everyone except Buu and maybe Horus would be dead before they could blink.

 

2. Vegito was deliberately trying to goad Buu into absorbing him. Both Goku and Vegeta are quite capable of finishing off an enemy quickly if necessary.

 

3. Super Perfect Cell has learned his lesson from almost getting killed by Gohan, and is not about to underestimate his opponents.

 

4. Both characters have massive degrees of Saiyan blood, meaning they will be immune to mind control.

1) Prove it...

 

2) They can but they won't due to CIS. They would want a fight, and they would want to demonstrate their superiority to Super Buu, and that would leave them open to attack from other characters that do not have to directly attack them.

 

3) Yet all of the fighter that he would consider a threat are the fighters that are at least "Strong", strong as in lot's of Ki. None of these characters would rate above a few thousand (and that's generous) but they have many other abilities that would allow them to fight Cell, things that Cell would not know about. So he sees a gaggle of Hercules, and goes to smash them like Hercule... and then gets Smoked into nothing but the weight of DOOM!

 

4) They only have resistance to Mind Attacks, not Immunity. And the level of Mind Attack that is coming their way is on a level that would make even the Best Mentalist of Marvel and DC quake in their boots and piss their pants...

[Skirmisher]

The point of showing that to you was to prove it was a dub error, he describes the nature of the technique and it says you become light, the speed of light is constant, unchangable. King Kai's planet is nowhere near Earth and is several lightyears away as is Namek. It's a dub error.

The thing about improving on a Technique is that you can also find better ways to use it. When he's "Supposed" to be faster (a point that I have disproven) he could have Changed what he turns into to something else that is faster than light. That's the point of Improving with Training!

 

Besides he has never shown that his Later IT is faster than Light Speed IT.

[Guest DataSnake]

1) Prove it...

I already did.

 

2) They can but they won't due to CIS. They would want a fight, and they would want to demonstrate their superiority to Super Buu, and that would leave them open to attack from other characters that do not have to directly attack them.

They know nothing about the other fighters, and after 17 and 18, they aren't about to assume lack of ki equates to weakness.

 

3) Yet all of the fighter that he would consider a threat are the fighters that are at least "Strong", strong as in lot's of Ki. None of these characters would rate above a few thousand (and that's generous) but they have many other abilities that would allow them to fight Cell, things that Cell would not know about. So he sees a gaggle of Hercules, and goes to smash them like Hercule... and then gets Smoked into nothing but the weight of DOOM!

See above. Also, Cell would realize that he had no way of knowing how much power they were hiding.

 

4) They only have resistance to Mind Attacks, not Immunity. And the level of Mind Attack that is coming their way is on a level that would make even the Best Mentalist of Marvel and DC quake in their boots and piss their pants...

Then I guess it's back to the good old *fake word*.

[Nesh]

The thing about improving on a Technique is that you can also find better ways to use it. When he's "Supposed" to be faster (a point that I have disproven) he could have Changed what he turns into to something else that is faster than light. That's the point of Improving with Training!

 

Besides he has never shown that his Later IT is faster than Light Speed IT.

The distance between planets he's traveling between is enough proof and I ask you whhat could he demateralize into that's faster than light. Instant Transmission is pretty much, instant. All you've got is a dub error and a possibly fake interview.

[Guest MarvelFan15]

Exactly my point.

 

Yes, but despite this, you haven't explained how he manages to move FTL while applying physics. You stated yourself that you can't exceed a beam of light past light-speed. You said it defied physics. How then, do the DBZers manage to move themselves past light-speed?

[Guest MarvelFan15]

The distance between planets he's traveling between is enough proof and I ask you whhat could he demateralize into that's faster than light. Instant Transmission is pretty much, instant. All you've got is a dub error and a possibly fake interview.

 

If it's instant as you claim, then it goes beyond the relm of speed. So, what Skirmisher's said about the other non IT speed feats remains true.

[Nesh]

Yes, but despite this, you haven't explained how he manages to move FTL while applying physics. You stated yourself that you can't exceed a beam of light past light-speed. You said it defied physics. How then, do the DBZers manage to move themselves past light-speed?

I said you can't make a beam of light go faster than a beam of light and that the lightspeed thing was a dub error. Instant Transmission is like Nightcraler's teleportation, you pass for and inpercepable about of time and emerge in in another place as if no time had passed.

[Skirmisher]

I already did.

 

They know nothing about the other fighters, and after 17 and 18, they aren't about to assume lack of ki equates to weakness.

 

See above. Also, Cell would realize that he had no way of knowing how much power they were hiding.

 

Then I guess it's back to the good old *fake word*.

1) That doesn't prove anything, How much faster is one than the other? It never states that for a fact, for all you know they could only be 1 m/s faster than the other after that ONE actual speed feat.

 

2) They also knew that since 17 and 18 were androids that they had that type of defence. They don't know that about the other fighters and would not think about it, as the only thing that they consider powerful is Ki, hell even the Androids used Ki attacks.

 

3) Same as above, and from the look of my fighters he wouldn't care if they are hiding it, as they wouldn't even look like they are hiding it. IIRC someone who's smart enough can still Identify that someone else is hiding their Ki. My fighting are not hiding Ki because they can't and don't have any in large enough quantities to actually look like they could pose a threat.

 

4) Not when they can't speed blitz as fast as you want them to.

 

 

The distance between planets he's traveling between is enough proof and I ask you whhat could he demateralize into that's faster than light. Instant Transmission is pretty much, instant. All you've got is a dub error and a possibly fake interview.

But he doesn't go between Actual Physical Universe Planets, he takes a Short Cut through the Other World, another Dimension, and there he doesn't need to travel FTL as it would be like a Wormhole.