Match 11736 Wolverine vs. Deathstroke

[baneblade]

Invisible Woman alone could take a team like that, displaying that level of competency.

 

Flash runs smack into her shield, KO's himself. Put bubble in Zatanna's lungs, she can't talk, passes out. Just throw a spray of invisible projectiles in every direction, KOing everyone else.

 

GL tries to punch her, she grabs hand, turns his optic nerves invisible, beats him in h2h since that's what he seems to like even though he is holding an immeasurably powerful weapon on that hand.

 

Wolverine VS Galactus while being a ridiculous match up, is no worse than that JLA showing with all its facepalm logic holes.

 

Also, which bro were you talking about when you said: "This bro, has been discussed before, in spades."

 

If you were addressing me, it should have been phrased, "This, Bro, has been discussed before - in spades!"

Grammar is a cheap shot, but I am actually confused to whether you are addressing me, or calling Wolverine or Deathstroke a 'Bro'.

 

Yup, you are the bro I was referring to.

 

I guess I didn't make myself that clear, perhaps in more ways than one.

 

The key is not in mentioning a match that has PIS written all over it. The key is in determining what was done, even in that PIS ridden match. Did Wolverine beat the FF? That is, Invisible woman included, with all her abilities as you have mentioned here and which we all know. If he did take down Invisible woman, who could take out all those JLA members according to you, with relative ease, and he also did the same, all at one time to the Thing, and Torch, then could you please mention how he did it?

- Did he beat them all?

- Did he fight just to a standstill?

- Was he beaten?

Again, you did mention the Galactus and Wolverine (vs.) issue as PIS, but I didn't see it that way. In fact, it was a good issue, that showed just what Galactus truly is. Technically, Wolverine didn't even get to spar with him. I don't recall each and every detail, and if there is something credible that Wolverine actually did in there, that involved directly confronting Galactus, then inspite of it being PIS, I would like to know of it. As I said, it was a while ago I read it.

 

Hence brother, even if you state PIS and cite the reference behind it, even if for comparison to another PIS angle, the reference has to have abilities that cut the opposite ability set. If there isn't anything like that, the reference is useless.

 

I will again remind you, that Stroke has on paper, in a cross over, beaten Wolverine. If you will call than PIS, you could, but you can cannot argue it happened, was agreed upon by talent of both DC and Marvel, and it will always stand as a reference, from my broad view of all things comic. That's my 2 cents bro.

[comic_book_fan]

deathstroke should have never beat flash on his best day this is pis to the highest level .

you claim you you do not except pis but flash sees superman in slow motion but a guy who only reacts 9 times faster then a normal human can tag him or any greenlantern for that matter this feat is far worse then spiderman beating firelord.

hell if deathstroke can beat the jla then spiderman can to he can react 40 times faster then normal humans so he could tag flash i guess lol sure i can't beat that feat but that feat never should have happened and he had prep time in that fight he doesn't have prep here just a picture he knows nothing about wolverine and he only has basic weapons he can't win here.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

Deathstroke doesn't react nine times faster than a human, he reacts instantaneously. There's a massive difference.

[baneblade]

deathstroke should have never beat flash on his best day this is pis to the highest level .

you claim you you do not except pis but flash sees superman in slow motion but a guy who only reacts 9 times faster then a normal human can tag him or any greenlantern for that matter this feat is far worse then spiderman beating firelord.

hell if deathstroke can beat the jla then spiderman can to he can react 40 times faster then normal humans so he could tag flash i guess lol sure i can't beat that feat but that feat never should have happened and he had prep time in that fight he doesn't have prep here just a picture he knows nothing about wolverine and he only has basic weapons he can't win here.

 

If I faced an opponent in hand to hand in an impromptu Ju Jitsu match, who outweighed me, and was faster than me; would I be slated to lose that match? Perhaps. Now if I say, I would 'definitely lose that match, that would be wrong. Perhaps I would play my opponent better than he plays me, inspite of his physical advantages outweighing mine. Perhaps I would feign a hip toss movement, yet make into a hip toss/ arm lock, or stretch things with a compound movement, making it all into a triangle coke, etc.

 

Brother mine, we are walking in a gray area here, not black and white. Black white would say I would lose, and I Deathstroke would lose, as would a host of many other characters. That is what comic writers do bro, place these gray lines for us, and then use them to effect PIS, and draw out these impossible wins. Example: How can Spiderman beat a guy one on one who has all of his powers, and can sense his approach and is immune to his most potent tool, the spider-sense? I say the answer is in those grays, and most of all, in the difference of how they have been shown to effect their powers. So why did Spiderman beat Sandman, Rhino and the Sinister Six? Brains bro. He was more resourceful, and smarter. At least that is what his scribes have been pushing in his victories many a time.

 

Stroke thinks waaaay ahead and is waaaaay smarter bro. If you pour through those panels again, he said 'different mask, same mistakes'; I never said he beat their speed, or their power. He just didn't allow them the co-ordination and time to use them.That is why I have been repeating, no other character even this far into the posts has that 1 ability, that even Batman will have a hard time countering. Spiderman or FF were not 'born to fight' or think 10 steps ahead in the heat of battle. Slade does. How can you discount that fact?

 

Lets logically take it all down a notch. You are saying the JLA angle is PIS. (I said whether it is or not, you simply can't make a conjecture against it, or simply sideline it. It stands as a feat). Would Slade take 3 opponents? Or two? Or 1 Wolverine? I know Wolverine t have been on the ropes with a less smarter opponent. Castle, DD, Shaw, for eg. Slade is waaay smarter than them, has the inane ability to improvise on the fly, and knows pressure points that Wolverine obviously didn't take the time to become knowledgeable in, given the comic tales. Plus, the added disadvantage that he has gone nuts going into the attack works against him. Slade will see that he can't hurt him, nor slow him, and will also see that he is fighting in a fit, to only shorten the fight. Slade will improvise, lure him into that window of that marginal advantage that he has, and strike a staff into his heart, or solar plexus, or jugular veins, to either slow him down or but that precious blood supply to the brain.

 

I am not saying that is what is likely to happen. I am only saying, given their tendencies, their opponents, and their feats, that is the way it definitely will happen.

[Guest force_echo]

As much as I'm surprised to say this, Lonewolf is making sense. In an issue where the JLA were behaving that retarded and Invisible Woman had a cursory knowledge of their powers, Invisible woman would be able to take out all of them.

 

In which comic does it say that Deathstroke has instant reflexes? I'm calling bullshit on that one.

 

EDIT: I bet if there was a fight Kyle Rayner vs. [insert any character not from DC here], and you bring up Deathstroke almost beating Rayner, Baneblade will call it PIS.

[Guest LoneWolf]

Crossovers are absolutely not canon. They have just ridiculous instances of bad writing, eg Batman beating Hulk in pure melee.

 

The fact is that both characters have low showings (Wolvy=DD, Punisher; DS=Nightwing, Batman). Slade might be a quick thinker, but he is not some martial arts god who is going to dodge every blow. They will both take hits. As you can see by Slade's missing eye... his regen sure ain't on Wolvie's level. It is very likely that they close to melee range and trade hits. DS goes for a quick decapitation strike and *surprise* the head doesn't come off, and he finds him self looking at his own guts lying on the ground.

 

That's the way I see it playing out since Slade would not know to avoid melee in this case. He certainly doesn't ever avoid it in any showings I've seen. They melee, Wolvy is arguably a better fighter, definitely fast enough to tag him, not going to stop or slow down, can't be dropped, doesn't feel pain, DS can;t just run and hide etc...

 

All factors point towards Wolverine winning here.

[baneblade]

Crossovers are absolutely not canon. They have just ridiculous instances of bad writing, eg Batman beating Hulk in pure melee.

 

The fact is that both characters have low showings (Wolvy=DD, Punisher; DS=Nightwing, Batman). Slade might be a quick thinker, but he is not some martial arts god who is going to dodge every blow. They will both take hits. As you can see by Slade's missing eye... his regen sure ain't on Wolvie's level. It is very likely that they close to melee range and trade hits. DS goes for a quick decapitation strike and *surprise* the head doesn't come off, and he finds him self looking at his own guts lying on the ground.

 

That's the way I see it playing out since Slade would not know to avoid melee in this case. He certainly doesn't ever avoid it in any showings I've seen. They melee, Wolvy is arguably a better fighter, definitely fast enough to tag him, not going to stop or slow down, can't be dropped, doesn't feel pain, DS can;t just run and hide etc...

 

All factors point towards Wolverine winning here.

 

Sorry bro. Seems you either missed the comic, or forgot about it. DS = Batman, is not a small statement, if that is what you were implying. Wolverine = DD, Punisher could work, but just doesn't. DD's had his instances, and Punisher almost always had his with Wolverine, embarrassing the hell out of him.

 

To make a point moot, or add to it, Deathstroke has dropped Batman, convincingly, one on one, sans prep, and without aid.

 

He takes on multiple opponents routinely, ones with super powers, Wolverine doesnot. He is more 'adjusted' to expect the worst that Wolverine.

 

Again, the non-canon argument. There are crossovers written for the sake of crossovers. But there are others, well crafted. Titans/X-men was one of the better outings. Sorry, you are just turning the other way, even though the events and the fight match up perfectly with what Slade does routinely. I am only doing the match. Adds up nicely. You could choose to turn the other way, but that doesnot make the published fact go away. As for Batman 'beating hulk'? Sorry bro, but that's the way characters were written at the time. There was nothing, nothing out of context in that story. That was an 81' tale. Captain America, who has been deemed Batman's physical equal, in terms of physicality, inspite of the serum, has dropped Hulk before, both in the early 80s, (or late 70s,) and in the mid 90s. He did it with his fighting skills too, utlizing pressure point knowledge to Hulk off his footing. Batman, during that tale, in the silver era, did nothing more, and in fact, had to resort to gas to weaken Hulk before knocking him out. Sorry, but again, that tale had nothing horrendously out of place, anything more than Marvel themselves did with Hulk by having him drop to Cap, or others. You argument there is moot bro.

 

To Force Echo: You state that Invisible woman would drop JLA, but added a very crucial thing yourself, limiting that statement : 'if she had cursory knowledge about them'. Invisible Woman has powers, and can effect them from a long range. Although I do not agree she will drop them, (seeing her previous outings with more 'incoherent' villains), you yourself state that 'knowledge' of their powers will help her take them down. So can Bats, or Ghul, or others, who had prior 'knowledge'. You are introducing a whole new scenario here, one of intense pre-planning. Slade did not have that luxury, plus he is not endowed with long range powers. That only makes his feat more impressive. True, he expected them, but didn't have a day to lay out a plan. In fact, per Brad Meltzer, he did it in a short frame, and laid out several contingencies. he also didn't know the exact members who were coming. Which means, that once he was on the street, he improvised those contingencies in part, according to their expected actions, and in part right off the fly. That makes the feat (whether classified as PIS or not) more impressive. Sorry, Lonewolf's argument is still not valid.

 

Again:

Points you should/could agree on:

- DS has dropped Bats in one on one on the fly combat

- Routinely taken on super powered teams. Again, you could purposefully turn your head away from this, accuse it if being PIS,

but it can not be discounted. It is routine, has been on paper, and it stands. It is a feat Wolverine still has to show, if he can get

past being embarassed by Castle first, pull a lack luster outcome with DD or Cap.

Lets remember, DD doesnot have long range powers like Invisible Woman, who you folks are trying to push in regards to being able to accomplish the same feat of dropping JLA members

- Thinks way ahead of Wolverine, DD or Punisher in terms of contingency, in heat of combat. Even if you refute this, you can not refute that he has the ability to use more of his brain than any other character mentioned on the list.

- Has dropped Wolverine on paper before, a feat you could take or turn your head away from, but which I just can not ignore, and which is in perfect tandem, a decade later almost, with what Stroke does on and off.

 

I will throw in a few extras here too. DD has a healing factor of his own, which only means, with his aversion skills, he will last just long enough, to pull out the most crucial straws in this fight.

 

Sorry, while you have tried to substantiate Wolverine's accomplishments going into this fight, your claim, that he is 'unstoppable, feels no pain, etc.' still does not show him dropping to a well placed pressure hit, or a strike to the heart or the jugular, to slow him down, or just put him to sleep. My simple bet, if it happened with an opponent far inferior in H2H to Slade, it will most certainly happen here. Even if I do not drum up that argument, just the stats alone work against wolverine.

 

Slade will win this in what we will call Flawless Victory.

[Guest force_echo]

Sorry bro. Seems you either missed the comic, or forgot about it. DS = Batman, is not a small statement, if that is what you were implying. Wolverine = DD, Punisher could work, but just doesn't. DD's had his instances, and Punisher almost always had his with Wolverine, embarrassing the hell out of him.

 

To make a point moot, or add to it, Deathstroke has dropped Batman, convincingly, one on one, sans prep, and without aid.

 

He takes on multiple opponents routinely, ones with super powers, Wolverine doesnot. He is more 'adjusted' to expect the worst that Wolverine.

 

Again, the non-canon argument. There are crossovers written for the sake of crossovers. But there are others, well crafted. Titans/X-men was one of the better outings. Sorry, you are just turning the other way, even though the events and the fight match up perfectly with what Slade does routinely. I am only doing the match. Adds up nicely. You could choose to turn the other way, but that doesnot make the published fact go away. As for Batman 'beating hulk'? Sorry bro, but that's the way characters were written at the time. There was nothing, nothing out of context in that story. That was an 81' tale. Captain America, who has been deemed Batman's physical equal, in terms of physicality, inspite of the serum, has dropped Hulk before, both in the early 80s, (or late 70s,) and in the mid 90s. He did it with his fighting skills too, utlizing pressure point knowledge to Hulk off his footing. Batman, during that tale, in the silver era, did nothing more, and in fact, had to resort to gas to weaken Hulk before knocking him out. Sorry, but again, that tale had nothing horrendously out of place, anything more than Marvel themselves did with Hulk by having him drop to Cap, or others. You argument there is moot bro.

 

To Force Echo: You state that Invisible woman would drop JLA, but added a very crucial thing yourself, limiting that statement : 'if she had cursory knowledge about them'. Invisible Woman has powers, and can effect them from a long range. Although I do not agree she will drop them, (seeing her previous outings with more 'incoherent' villains), you yourself state that 'knowledge' of their powers will help her take them down. So can Bats, or Ghul, or others, who had prior 'knowledge'. You are introducing a whole new scenario here, one of intense pre-planning. Slade did not have that luxury, plus he is not endowed with long range powers. That only makes his feat more impressive. True, he expected them, but didn't have a day to lay out a plan. In fact, per Brad Meltzer, he did it in a short frame, and laid out several contingencies. he also didn't know the exact members who were coming. Which means, that once he was on the street, he improvised those contingencies in part, according to their expected actions, and in part right off the fly. That makes the feat (whether classified as PIS or not) more impressive. Sorry, Lonewolf's argument is still not valid.

 

Again:

Points you should/could agree on:

- DS has dropped Bats in one on one on the fly combat

- Routinely taken on super powered teams. Again, you could purposefully turn your head away from this, accuse it if being PIS,

but it can not be discounted. It is routine, has been on paper, and it stands. It is a feat Wolverine still has to show, if he can get

past being embarassed by Castle first, pull a lack luster outcome with DD or Cap.

Lets remember, DD doesnot have long range powers like Invisible Woman, who you folks are trying to push in regards to being able to accomplish the same feat of dropping JLA members

- Thinks way ahead of Wolverine, DD or Punisher in terms of contingency, in heat of combat. Even if you refute this, you can not refute that he has the ability to use more of his brain than any other character mentioned on the list.

- Has dropped Wolverine on paper before, a feat you could take or turn your head away from, but which I just can not ignore, and which is in perfect tandem, a decade later almost, with what Stroke does on and off.

 

I will throw in a few extras here too. DD has a healing factor of his own, which only means, with his aversion skills, he will last just long enough, to pull out the most crucial straws in this fight.

 

Sorry, while you have tried to substantiate Wolverine's accomplishments going into this fight, your claim, that he is 'unstoppable, feels no pain, etc.' still does not show him dropping to a well placed pressure hit, or a strike to the heart or the jugular, to slow him down, or just put him to sleep. My simple bet, if it happened with an opponent far inferior in H2H to Slade, it will most certainly happen here. Even if I do not drum up that argument, just the stats alone work against wolverine.

 

Slade will win this in what we will call Flawless Victory.

Deathstroke does have cursory knowledge of their powers. He realizes that the GL ring operates on willpower, that Zatanna needs to say her spells for them to work. If Invisible woman had the same knowledge DS did, she would wipe the floor with the JLA too.

 

"Deathstroke has beaten Batman"

Wolverine has gone up against Hulk in a serious fight, and has beaten Iron Fist in H2H. Iron Fist who is undoubtedly better than Batman at H2H.

 

Also, Punisher always embarrassing Wolverine is plain out wrong. Give some proof.

 

The fact that you said Wolverine doesn't regularly take on people with superpowers in laughably inaccurate. He has taken on more superpowers than Deathstroke has, by far.

 

The only canon crossover was JLA/Avengers. Other crossovers occur in an amalgam universe, automatically rendering them noncanon. Unless you're saying that canonically, the Marvel and DC universes are the same. Which is stupid.

 

Personally, I don't know who wins, but I'm just pointing out the inevitable wrong facts you carry with every argument you make.

[baneblade]

Deathstroke does have cursory knowledge of their powers. He realizes that the GL ring operates on willpower, that Zatanna needs to say her spells for them to work. If Invisible woman had the same knowledge DS did, she would wipe the floor with the JLA too.

 

"Deathstroke has beaten Batman"

Wolverine has gone up against Hulk in a serious fight, and has beaten Iron Fist in H2H. Iron Fist who is undoubtedly better than Batman at H2H.

 

Also, Punisher always embarrassing Wolverine is plain out wrong. Give some proof.

 

The fact that you said Wolverine doesn't regularly take on people with superpowers in laughably inaccurate. He has taken on more superpowers than Deathstroke has, by far.

 

The only canon crossover was JLA/Avengers. Other crossovers occur in an amalgam universe, automatically rendering them noncanon. Unless you're saying that canonically, the Marvel and DC universes are the same. Which is stupid.

 

Personally, I don't know who wins, but I'm just pointing out the inevitable wrong facts you carry with every argument you make.

 

Hmmm. 'Wrong facts with EVERY argument I make'. Again, direct, incorrect, and vague statements meant to perhaps insult than substantiate something. Even if it was a remote fact that some facts could be wrong,, saying that I state incorrect facts with 'every argument' is pretty vague. Respect your opinion though, and won't comment in kind.

 

Wrong facts such as?

- DS has faced teamups routinely?

- Has more use of his brain as an ability than improvisation, which counts for something, and which you have been ignoring?

- Is a more articulate fighter, and better 'improvising' tactician than Wolverine?

 

 

Wolverine's other feats, like facing off multiple super power opponents:

Wolverine has beaten Hulk? Yes. Surprised you didn't call that PIS. He did get the win once, via Hulk dropping into a gas line and passing out.That is one fight in which he 'won'. Mostly others, here was either a grey area or a loss.

- Beating Fist a feat compared to Stroke vs Batman? Grey area. I do not agree.

- Fist better than Bats: I do not agree

- Kindly give me instances where Wolverine faced off multiple super powered opponents. Please make sure the reference isn't lame. Example: Usually Flash and Lantern would mow down an army of opponents. Give me a feat or stat equal to that, or even something like Cyborg, Changeling, Raven or Starfire, on the same team.

 

- Wolverine vs Punisher. Hmmm. Here's one example:

 

http://www.comicaddicts.com/2010/09/wolverine-vs-punisher.html

 

 

For your other arguments:

- You say, DS had prior knowledge and Invisible Woman would wipe the floor with the JLA members, with the same knowledge. As direct as you are, you are still missing the whole point. IW is 'superpowered', has long range battle ability. DS does not. It makes his feat pretty impressive. Nay, more impressive.

 

- I never said DS didn't have prior knowledge. After all, they live and fight in the same universe. Its common sense more than it is common ground. Again, you are completely either missing the point wholly on purpose, or in the dangerous grey zone where you do not want to look at it: DS improvised in part pre-fight, and in part during fight. That is damn impressive, given there's Flash and Lantern in the mix.

 

- Technically, no crossovers are canon. Marvel put up their nose and denied the JLA/Avengers crossover as canon, only after initially stating it was canon. Owe it to the nosey back end folks for that drastic change. DC still stated it as canon. Hence, a 50/50 thing. Again, missing the whole point. Saying it was non-canon, but still seeing the battle happened in the same 'lines' defined in comics continuity could open a little room for common perception. I see past the barricades. You don't, that's your choice.

 

Sorry, in a straight up fight, I do not see Wolverine taking out Stroke. In a series of fights, he might land some lucky ones, and rack up a win or two, after a long series of fights.

 

DS still wins.

[Guest Lunacyde]

For Slade to win he'd need to take advantage of the environment and some explosives or other powerful gear. Like a few have said a frontal assault is a poor choice unless he has something up his sleeves and it's not his style against someone who is the physical match Wolverine is. Not saying by any means Slade can't win, he's just going to have to do more than straight up brawl Logan to do it.

[Guest LoneWolf]

Wow, so you call the Batman victory over Hulk credible? This really casts doubt on your ability to understand things like logic and physics, which while comics may be light on, still apply in these made up worlds.

 

There is no possible way a human fist could affect a pressure point on Hulk, not happening. The fact that you do not recognize this PIS makes me really realize you don't know what you're talking about. In fact I'm almost 100% certain you are a DC fanboy, who believes that there is a shred of realism in those comics.

 

Deathstroke has apparently beaten Wonder Woman in hand to hand as well, yet she is a light speed fighter right? Or else how could she keep up with Superman? How can he phase her... or even worse how can Batman go toe to toe with her? These are just random examples of the background setting in which you are pulling these 'Feats' that Deathstroke has accomplished.

 

If you have read Wolverine comics before, you would quickly realize that Punisher beating Wolvy is complete PIS due to what I stated earlier.

 

Wolvy would kill Frank if he won, Frank cannot kill Wolvy, therefore the writers are compelled to have Frank win since both are lethal fighters going for a kill...

 

Wolverine has been shot with literally hundreds of full auto weapons at close range and it didn't stop him or slow him. How is one guy with a gun going to do that (Punisher)? It was PIS by a writer who quite simply didn't like Wolverine and wanted to tarnish the character.

 

His endurance and durability mean he can take full on hits from an enraged Hulk and keep fighting, Deathstroke is in NO way possible able to match that level of damage.

 

Think ahead all you want in a one of one melee fight, there will be blows thrown back and forth, doesn't take a genius to tell what's going to happen, Wolverine is going to try and gut him and even an idiot could see it a mile off. I repeat, his amazing tactical powers are WORTHLESS here, any fool could tell Wolvy's course of action... ***STOPPING*** it is the REAL challenge. I think I already mentioned how hard it is to stop Wolverine.

 

Wolverine has had his flesh ripped off with gunfire... you can bet a significant number of those rounds hit these pressure points, guess what????? Didn't stop him! Taking a bullet to the chest is a hell of a lot more painfully and shocking than ANY pressure point. It is comic book lore that a pressure point can stop anyone. Otherwise you would see cops, special forces and MMA fighters using that shit, right?

 

Since you seem to be all about Ju Jitsu and stuff, go get in a match with someone and try and use a pressure point on them in the middle of a round... If it worked, people would use it, it's called common sense.

 

Regardless of the realism of comic book martial arts, the fact remains, it supposedly damages a nerve, damage which is very superficial (it doesn't break the skin even) and damage which Wolvy will almost instantly heal.

 

Wolverine is like a wild animal fighting with its natural weapons - its claws. Go take the best UFC fighter you can find and tell him to go choke out a pissed off badger, not going to work. Fact is in a fight like this, both fighters are going to get cut. In RL knife fights, same thing, both people are getting stabbed. Thing is, Wolverine has this little thing where he can get up and walk away afterward, Slade doesn't.. how hard is this to understand??????

[Guest force_echo]

Hmmm. 'Wrong facts with EVERY argument I make'. Again, direct, incorrect, and vague statements meant to perhaps insult than substantiate something. Even if it was a remote fact that some facts could be wrong,, saying that I state incorrect facts with 'every argument' is pretty vague. Respect your opinion though, and won't comment in kind.

 

Wrong facts such as?

- DS has faced teamups routinely?

- Has more use of his brain as an ability than improvisation, which counts for something, and which you have been ignoring?

- Is a more articulate fighter, and better 'improvising' tactician than Wolverine?

 

 

Wolverine's other feats, like facing off multiple super power opponents:

Wolverine has beaten Hulk? Yes. Surprised you didn't call that PIS. He did get the win once, via Hulk dropping into a gas line and passing out.That is one fight in which he 'won'. Mostly others, here was either a grey area or a loss.

- Beating Fist a feat compared to Stroke vs Batman? Grey area. I do not agree.

- Fist better than Bats: I do not agree

- Kindly give me instances where Wolverine faced off multiple super powered opponents. Please make sure the reference isn't lame. Example: Usually Flash and Lantern would mow down an army of opponents. Give me a feat or stat equal to that, or even something like Cyborg, Changeling, Raven or Starfire, on the same team.

 

- Wolverine vs Punisher. Hmmm. Here's one example:

 

http://www.comicaddi...s-punisher.html

 

 

For your other arguments:

- You say, DS had prior knowledge and Invisible Woman would wipe the floor with the JLA members, with the same knowledge. As direct as you are, you are still missing the whole point. IW is 'superpowered', has long range battle ability. DS does not. It makes his feat pretty impressive. Nay, more impressive.

 

- I never said DS didn't have prior knowledge. After all, they live and fight in the same universe. Its common sense more than it is common ground. Again, you are completely either missing the point wholly on purpose, or in the dangerous grey zone where you do not want to look at it: DS improvised in part pre-fight, and in part during fight. That is damn impressive, given there's Flash and Lantern in the mix.

 

- Technically, no crossovers are canon. Marvel put up their nose and denied the JLA/Avengers crossover as canon, only after initially stating it was canon. Owe it to the nosey back end folks for that drastic change. DC still stated it as canon. Hence, a 50/50 thing. Again, missing the whole point. Saying it was non-canon, but still seeing the battle happened in the same 'lines' defined in comics continuity could open a little room for common perception. I see past the barricades. You don't, that's your choice.

 

Sorry, in a straight up fight, I do not see Wolverine taking out Stroke. In a series of fights, he might land some lucky ones, and rack up a win or two, after a long series of fights.

 

DS still wins.

No, the wrong facts I pointed out.

 

It's not PIS because he's fought the Hulk multiple times and been able to put up one HELL of a fight every single time.

 

Give you an example of when Wolverine has fought a superpowered opponent? Are you serious?

Omega Red, Sabretooth, Cyber, X-23, Daken, Hulk, Mr. X, Phoenix, Psylocke, Prof. X, Onslaught, Fantastic Four, Blade, Demonized Ogun, Brood Prime, Cable, Carver, Cyclops, Deadpool, Deathbird, EXODUS, Gambit, Gamora, Ghost Rider, Havok, Human Torch, Iceman, Invisible Woman, Kane, MAGNETO, Mr. Clean, Storm, Venom, Vindicator, Abomination, Absorbing Man, Arkon, Crusader, Hercules, Kierrok, Namor, Powerman and the Rhino, Rogue, Thing, Thor, Ultron, Wendigo, Wrecking Crew, X-Force, Alpha Flight, Luke Cage and Iron Fist, over 200 supervillains on a helicarrier, Cap, Cyclops and Hellion at the same time, Spider-Man, etc.

 

Yeah, too bad thats from Punisher vs. the Marvel Universe and its noncanon.

 

The point stands that that feat isn't impressive at all. With Deathstroke's knowledge of the JL,and them acting as retarded as they did, Wolverine could fight the JL too.

[baneblade]

No, the wrong facts I pointed out.

 

It's not PIS because he's fought the Hulk multiple times and been able to put up one HELL of a fight every single time.

 

Give you an example of when Wolverine has fought a superpowered opponent? Are you serious?

Omega Red, Sabretooth, Cyber, X-23, Daken, Hulk, Mr. X, Phoenix, Psylocke, Prof. X, Onslaught, Fantastic Four, Blade, Demonized Ogun, Brood Prime, Cable, Carver, Cyclops, Deadpool, Deathbird, EXODUS, Gambit, Gamora, Ghost Rider, Havok, Human Torch, Iceman, Invisible Woman, Kane, MAGNETO, Mr. Clean, Storm, Venom, Vindicator, Abomination, Absorbing Man, Arkon, Crusader, Hercules, Kierrok, Namor, Powerman and the Rhino, Rogue, Thing, Thor, Ultron, Wendigo, Wrecking Crew, X-Force, Alpha Flight, Luke Cage and Iron Fist, over 200 supervillains on a helicarrier, Cap, Cyclops and Hellion at the same time, Spider-Man, etc.

 

Yeah, too bad thats from Punisher vs. the Marvel Universe and its noncanon.

 

The point stands that that feat isn't impressive at all. With Deathstroke's knowledge of the JL,and them acting as retarded as they did, Wolverine could fight the JL too.

 

You first Echo.

 

- Good to see our references are becoming narrowed.

 

- So, you only pointed out certain facts. Cool. I apologize then, for mistaking your statement.

 

- Good to see you list all those folks Wolverine tangoe'd with. You came so strong with them, I appreciate it. My underlying question was not who he's faced: If I didn't phrase it properly, I will do it again. There should be a reference where he faced multiple opponents, at the same time, equaling, if not trumping the abilities of Zatanna, Green Lantern and Flash, at one time. The outcome should also have at least one pin fall style win, if not complete win. That is, to give benefit of doubt.

 

- Non- canon or not good sir, I have already explained my stance on this. I know we are in a grey area right there, but a grey area nonetheless. Lets just say there are others on this very post, like bro Lone Wolf, who also acknowledge this fact.

 

- Them 'acting retarded' is per our opinion, not the chief scribe's. Meltzer was pelted with questions literally even before the arc folded. He gave his reasons. I am not saying I am buying them, I am only saying I have to go with them.

[baneblade]

Wow, so you call the Batman victory over Hulk credible? This really casts doubt on your ability to understand things like logic and physics, which while comics may be light on, still apply in these made up worlds.

 

There is no possible way a human fist could affect a pressure point on Hulk, not happening. The fact that you do not recognize this PIS makes me really realize you don't know what you're talking about. In fact I'm almost 100% certain you are a DC fanboy, who believes that there is a shred of realism in those comics.

 

Deathstroke has apparently beaten Wonder Woman in hand to hand as well, yet she is a light speed fighter right? Or else how could she keep up with Superman? How can he phase her... or even worse how can Batman go toe to toe with her? These are just random examples of the background setting in which you are pulling these 'Feats' that Deathstroke has accomplished.

 

If you have read Wolverine comics before, you would quickly realize that Punisher beating Wolvy is complete PIS due to what I stated earlier.

 

Wolvy would kill Frank if he won, Frank cannot kill Wolvy, therefore the writers are compelled to have Frank win since both are lethal fighters going for a kill...

 

Wolverine has been shot with literally hundreds of full auto weapons at close range and it didn't stop him or slow him. How is one guy with a gun going to do that (Punisher)? It was PIS by a writer who quite simply didn't like Wolverine and wanted to tarnish the character.

 

His endurance and durability mean he can take full on hits from an enraged Hulk and keep fighting, Deathstroke is in NO way possible able to match that level of damage.

 

Think ahead all you want in a one of one melee fight, there will be blows thrown back and forth, doesn't take a genius to tell what's going to happen, Wolverine is going to try and gut him and even an idiot could see it a mile off. I repeat, his amazing tactical powers are WORTHLESS here, any fool could tell Wolvy's course of action... ***STOPPING*** it is the REAL challenge. I think I already mentioned how hard it is to stop Wolverine.

 

Wolverine has had his flesh ripped off with gunfire... you can bet a significant number of those rounds hit these pressure points, guess what????? Didn't stop him! Taking a bullet to the chest is a hell of a lot more painfully and shocking than ANY pressure point. It is comic book lore that a pressure point can stop anyone. Otherwise you would see cops, special forces and MMA fighters using that shit, right?

 

Since you seem to be all about Ju Jitsu and stuff, go get in a match with someone and try and use a pressure point on them in the middle of a round... If it worked, people would use it, it's called common sense.

 

Regardless of the realism of comic book martial arts, the fact remains, it supposedly damages a nerve, damage which is very superficial (it doesn't break the skin even) and damage which Wolvy will almost instantly heal.

 

Wolverine is like a wild animal fighting with its natural weapons - its claws. Go take the best UFC fighter you can find and tell him to go choke out a pissed off badger, not going to work. Fact is in a fight like this, both fighters are going to get cut. In RL knife fights, same thing, both people are getting stabbed. Thing is, Wolverine has this little thing where he can get up and walk away afterward, Slade doesn't.. how hard is this to understand??????

 

Hey bro Lone Wolf.

 

- Hmm, seems it is either I, or the agitation is random. Accusing me of being a fanboy, when I respectfully stated instances where Captain America downed Hulk on more than one occasion, using 'pressure points'. Is Cap or Hulk DC or Marvel? If you didn't check that out, please do so again.

 

- I stated, adding to above, that Batman downing Hulk in that year of 1981, was not so much of an anomaly, as it would be now. Batman yet, used extraneous things like knock-out gas to slow him down. Cap simply downed him in both his unintelligent, and intelligent forms. That feat is even more of a stretch. You didn't look at that part and went straight to name calling eh bro?

 

- Pressure points: Hmmm. Always works, if one gets to use it. You see, bro, you are mixing reality with comics. No need for it. I personally know, that if someone with the strength of Cap tries to toss Hulk, no matter he uses 'pressure points', it won't work. In the comic tales, Cap used 'pressure points' to make Hulk unstable, then manhandled him. What was so hard to understand here? I never said 'comprehend', I only said 'understand'. As for PIS, didn't I say that I don't accept PIS, but eventually HAVE to accept it? Back to pressure point. Once, in a session, my cousin of all people, had me down and was trying to wedge an elbow to my throat chest area. Seemingly while I was done an' exhausted, just as he moved a bit to position himself better for the right elbow and left hand, I saw him propped on his footing, and delivered a near effortless nudge to his achilles' and back of knee area, instantly making him tumble to one side on his ass, from there I at least survived. It is a small experience, but it is there regardless. Yes, in reality when fighters square off, there guards are so high, that such maneuverability will be nearly impossible if not minimal. However, you just can't simply discard what was in the comic book because you think it is not acceptable. It was Marvel that did it, not DC. At least place the blame where it belongs bro.

 

- That bit with what Wolverine's taken and what not, we all know it. Even casual comic fans know it. Let me attempt this again: DS doesnot need to 'ground and pound', or blow away or dismember Wolverine. I repeat, all he needs is a few well placed movements and strikes to the heart area, to cut off that precious blood supply to the brain, to merely knock him out. I said, he did it in the 'non-canon' book, a'la JLA, ans he is likely to do it here again. You and Echo are both undermining Slade's battle smarts to a degree that is almost close to negligible. That is not cool.

 

- Wolverine walking away from the battle is most likely bro, after he wakes up.

[Guest force_echo]

You first Echo.

 

- Good to see our references are becoming narrowed.

 

- So, you only pointed out certain facts. Cool. I apologize then, for mistaking your statement.

 

- Good to see you list all those folks Wolverine tangoe'd with. You came so strong with them, I appreciate it. My underlying question was not who he's faced: If I didn't phrase it properly, I will do it again. There should be a reference where he faced multiple opponents, at the same time, equaling, if not trumping the abilities of Zatanna, Green Lantern and Flash, at one time. The outcome should also have at least one pin fall style win, if not complete win. That is, to give benefit of doubt.

 

- Non- canon or not good sir, I have already explained my stance on this. I know we are in a grey area right there, but a grey area nonetheless. Lets just say there are others on this very post, like bro Lone Wolf, who also acknowledge this fact.

 

- Them 'acting retarded' is per our opinion, not the chief scribe's. Meltzer was pelted with questions literally even before the arc folded. He gave his reasons. I am not saying I am buying them, I am only saying I have to go with them.

What does what the creator say have to do with anything? What he says isn't canon, only what's written/drawn is.

 

I have given you people who rival Zatanna's and Green Lantern's powers, just look at the list. Besides, Wolverine could take Green Lantern and Zatanna too if Green Lantern tried to go hand to hand with him, and Wolverine knew that Zatanna's spells had to be spoken.

[Guest LoneWolf]

You seem to like the word 'Bro' a lot. Do you think that I find it offensive or that is bothers me? You might have me mistaken for someone else here. You seem to be intentionally trying to aggravate me, which means I must have hit a nerve somewhere... I assume it stems from this match.

 

The Cap instances are equally bad examples as the Batman ones, with the possible exception that he might have used his unbreakable shield to trip the Hulk. Hulk can survive in space... yet is vulnerable to KO gas? That fight has zero credibility no matter how you cut it.

 

Here I will use your own statements to clearly illustrate my point:

"DS does not need to 'ground and pound', or blow away or dismember Wolverine. I repeat, all he needs is a few well placed movements and strikes to the heart area, to cut off that precious blood supply to the brain, to merely knock him out."

 

"Yes, in reality when fighters square off, there guards are so high, that such maneuverability will be nearly impossible if not minimal."

 

You think Wolverine won't be doing the same thing? Trying to go for a vitals strike? Naturally he will, likely both will land blows, as I said earlier, it is exceedingly hard to avoid in a battle with edged weapons.

 

Once again, Slade's 'battle smarts' get brought up. I tell you, a 5 year old could tell what Wolverine is trying to do, preventing it from happening is the real challenge. The only way he could do so is if he were far beyond Wolvy in skill or physical attributes - which we have determined, he is not.

[baneblade]

What does what the creator say have to do with anything? What he says isn't canon, only what's written/drawn is.

 

I have given you people who rival Zatanna's and Green Lantern's powers, just look at the list. Besides, Wolverine could take Green Lantern and Zatanna too if Green Lantern tried to go hand to hand with him, and Wolverine knew that Zatanna's spells had to be spoken.

 

- So, if the creator is giving some 'semblance' to a confusing or tangled layout, it isn't canon. To me it is. He is not exactly 'twisting the tale into something else', merely explaining what his logic was. I agree with him wholly. Unless, one creator's barrage clashes with another's on the same subject, it is pretty much standard, to me.

 

- Allow me to state the sequence per scribe again: Stroke relied mostly on their reluctance, and confusion, after the sudden salvo. While I don't buy his PIS that Lantern saw his comrades fall within seconds, and got 'conflicted' in the heat of the moment, I have to go with it. It could also be real. Lantern's human at the core after all. Hence, Rayner was only temporarily 'overwhelmed' (the word use to describe his state) by seeing his team falling like cards, in the matter of seconds, and didn't react in a balanced way.

Taking this cue, I am re-stating that Wolverine can not fall them like a pack of cards in seconds. I just don't see it happening. That is why I asked you about his experience in fighting a group, in which he fell them in seconds. There is none.

 

- That is why I tried to remind everyone on the posts that Stroke usually plays it safe, and lets the smallest of body movements work wonders. He would not see himself 'paining' Wolverine to submission, but he will see himself 'knocking him out' by one of many possible methods.

 

- Folks rivaling Zatanna's powers? She effects (or is billed to effect) realities and things with a word, only said backwards, an art she has mastered in time. There is nothing virtually, more powerful than that. Again, there is that grey area and a new door we are opening. Lets not do that. The part where you state that Wolverine would take her out, if he knew she spoke the spells, while dealing with Flash and Lantern? Sure. Not happening in this universe it ain't. That's my thought.

 

- Wolverine has been known to take on stronger, more powerful opponents (Hulk?), not smarter ones, speaking in terms of fight reliability. Stroke has. Plus, you keep ignoring the fact, that even the folks you mentioned on the list can not utilize more than half their brain to effect the results Stroke gets with minimal effort. Its about the brains right there, not just beastly brawn.

[baneblade]

You seem to like the word 'Bro' a lot. Do you think that I find it offensive or that is bothers me? You might have me mistaken for someone else here. You seem to be intentionally trying to aggravate me, which means I must have hit a nerve somewhere... I assume it stems from this match.

 

The Cap instances are equally bad examples as the Batman ones, with the possible exception that he might have used his unbreakable shield to trip the Hulk. Hulk can survive in space... yet is vulnerable to KO gas? That fight has zero credibility no matter how you cut it.

 

Here I will use your own statements to clearly illustrate my point:

"DS does not need to 'ground and pound', or blow away or dismember Wolverine. I repeat, all he needs is a few well placed movements and strikes to the heart area, to cut off that precious blood supply to the brain, to merely knock him out."

 

"Yes, in reality when fighters square off, there guards are so high, that such maneuverability will be nearly impossible if not minimal."

 

You think Wolverine won't be doing the same thing? Trying to go for a vitals strike? Naturally he will, likely both will land blows, as I said earlier, it is exceedingly hard to avoid in a battle with edged weapons.

 

Once again, Slade's 'battle smarts' get brought up. I tell you, a 5 year old could tell what Wolverine is trying to do, preventing it from happening is the real challenge. The only way he could do so is if he were far beyond Wolvy in skill or physical attributes - which we have determined, he is not.

 

- Hmmm. Care to mention what I stated that 'intentionally aggravated you'? You are the one who resorted to the insults first, from what I can see, or understand. If I did say something, that ticked you off in the wrong manner, please let me know in your reply post. As for you hitting a nerve, no you didn't. Yes, the name calling is unacceptable. There are folks who resort to it right through posts and I can't stop them or reason enough with them, but just move on to the next post. As for 'bro', yup I just like to use it. Don't know why it is so out of expectation or place in the new world, but it is meant to impart respect. Some folks don't want it. So, I try to remember and not call them that anymore. Hope you don't mind it. As for mistaking you for someone else, don't worry, I am not mistaken.

 

- Hulk being downed by gas, Galactus getting the boot, Thanos imprisoning celestials, Seid beating the Source, Superman withstanding Seid, all PIS, but all that I accept. It seems you are fighting yourself here. You seem to go through the round of reading a book, and be at loggerheads with yourself if you do not accept the PIS. I personally feel that with Magneto's powers, Wolverine has no fighting chance in hell, yet another brother has just cited Wolverine's list of opponents with Magneto in it. Reason is simple: PIS allows all sorts of things. The smartest thing to do, inspite of citing it as PIS, is to accept it as it is a part of comic history. It is published, in the annals, and done.

 

- No a 5 yr. old won't know where an adam's apple, or solar plexus, or tendons are. Maybe a very few of them who grew up on 'taped pillow sleeping sessions' Mostly won't. A credible fighter, however, who has the reflexes to act on an other's, and improvise on the go, will. As for your argument of Wolverine's fighting skills matching upto Slade's, I am damn sure many folks on this forum think otherwise, and I have (subjectively speaking) seen it also. That there, though is the grey area we are debating on aren't we?

[baneblade]

Gotta go know brothers all. Will check back in tomorrow in case there are more posts.

[comic_book_fan]

Deathstroke doesn't react nine times faster than a human, he reacts instantaneously. There's a massive difference.

no his reflexes strength and speed was increased by 9 fold .

[comic_book_fan]

- So, if the creator is giving some 'semblance' to a confusing or tangled layout, it isn't canon. To me it is. He is not exactly 'twisting the tale into something else', merely explaining what his logic was. I agree with him wholly. Unless, one creator's barrage clashes with another's on the same subject, it is pretty much standard, to me.

 

- Allow me to state the sequence per scribe again: Stroke relied mostly on their reluctance, and confusion, after the sudden salvo. While I don't buy his PIS that Lantern saw his comrades fall within seconds, and got 'conflicted' in the heat of the moment, I have to go with it. It could also be real. Lantern's human at the core after all. Hence, Rayner was only temporarily 'overwhelmed' (the word use to describe his state) by seeing his team falling like cards, in the matter of seconds, and didn't react in a balanced way.

Taking this cue, I am re-stating that Wolverine can not fall them like a pack of cards in seconds. I just don't see it happening. That is why I asked you about his experience in fighting a group, in which he fell them in seconds. There is none.

 

- That is why I tried to remind everyone on the posts that Stroke usually plays it safe, and lets the smallest of body movements work wonders. He would not see himself 'paining' Wolverine to submission, but he will see himself 'knocking him out' by one of many possible methods.

 

- Folks rivaling Zatanna's powers? She effects (or is billed to effect) realities and things with a word, only said backwards, an art she has mastered in time. There is nothing virtually, more powerful than that. Again, there is that grey area and a new door we are opening. Lets not do that. The part where you state that Wolverine would take her out, if he knew she spoke the spells, while dealing with Flash and Lantern? Sure. Not happening in this universe it ain't. That's my thought.

 

- Wolverine has been known to take on stronger, more powerful opponents (Hulk?), not smarter ones, speaking in terms of fight reliability. Stroke has. Plus, you keep ignoring the fact, that even the folks you mentioned on the list can not utilize more than half their brain to effect the results Stroke gets with minimal effort. Its about the brains right there, not just beastly brawn.

wolverine beat the new hellfire club in original sin and he beat apocalypse's horsemen and darkriders at the same time after breaking apocalypse's control over him. he can fight teams as well and he is verry stealthy he could take down this clumsy jla team.

[Guest sirmethos]

no his reflexes strength and speed was increased by 9 fold .

 

No, they weren't.

 

His strength is stated as "the strength of 10 men", that is not a 9-fold increase. His reflexes are far more than 9 times faster, and the same goes for his speed(both movement and combat speed).

[Guest force_echo]

- So, if the creator is giving some 'semblance' to a confusing or tangled layout, it isn't canon. To me it is. He is not exactly 'twisting the tale into something else', merely explaining what his logic was. I agree with him wholly. Unless, one creator's barrage clashes with another's on the same subject, it is pretty much standard, to me.

 

- Allow me to state the sequence per scribe again: Stroke relied mostly on their reluctance, and confusion, after the sudden salvo. While I don't buy his PIS that Lantern saw his comrades fall within seconds, and got 'conflicted' in the heat of the moment, I have to go with it. It could also be real. Lantern's human at the core after all. Hence, Rayner was only temporarily 'overwhelmed' (the word use to describe his state) by seeing his team falling like cards, in the matter of seconds, and didn't react in a balanced way.

Taking this cue, I am re-stating that Wolverine can not fall them like a pack of cards in seconds. I just don't see it happening. That is why I asked you about his experience in fighting a group, in which he fell them in seconds. There is none.

 

- That is why I tried to remind everyone on the posts that Stroke usually plays it safe, and lets the smallest of body movements work wonders. He would not see himself 'paining' Wolverine to submission, but he will see himself 'knocking him out' by one of many possible methods.

 

- Folks rivaling Zatanna's powers? She effects (or is billed to effect) realities and things with a word, only said backwards, an art she has mastered in time. There is nothing virtually, more powerful than that. Again, there is that grey area and a new door we are opening. Lets not do that. The part where you state that Wolverine would take her out, if he knew she spoke the spells, while dealing with Flash and Lantern? Sure. Not happening in this universe it ain't. That's my thought.

 

- Wolverine has been known to take on stronger, more powerful opponents (Hulk?), not smarter ones, speaking in terms of fight reliability. Stroke has. Plus, you keep ignoring the fact, that even the folks you mentioned on the list can not utilize more than half their brain to effect the results Stroke gets with minimal effort. Its about the brains right there, not just beastly brawn.

Yeah, she's powerful, but Deathstroke didn't face that power, he incapacitated her before she could use them, Wolverine could do the exact same thing. Again, there's nothing in that battle even remotely impressive that wolverine could not do. If Deathstroke went one to one against Kyle Rayner without retarded PIS, Rayner would slaughter deathstroke, it would be a massive stomp with no chance of deathstroke coming out on top.

[baneblade]

Yeah, she's powerful, but Deathstroke didn't face that power, he incapacitated her before she could use them, Wolverine could do the exact same thing. Again, there's nothing in that battle even remotely impressive that wolverine could not do. If Deathstroke went one to one against Kyle Rayner without retarded PIS, Rayner would slaughter deathstroke, it would be a massive stomp with no chance of deathstroke coming out on top.

 

G'day Echo.

 

I know what Zatanna or Lantern will do when they get to use their power. The key is, in the implications of the fight. It only depicts what Stroke does impeccably. Now, we finally step into another area of discussion: You state that Wolverine would do the same thing, yet there is no evidence in comic history of him ever accomplishing this, that is; barricading an opponent's use of power, leave alone barricading multiple opponents. Thing is, Echo, it seems, most brothers or fellow ferretters here have a notion, that character and ability can be separated. They can not. Perhaps you already know this.

 

In that regard, Wolverine is 'mostly' not a level headed fighter, specially when he is agitated. We have seen it in the comics. Hook is when he is in his 'berserker mode', he has never faced an opponent who (usually) keeps his cool in the heat of battle, and who is absolutely precise in his execution.

 

It is not about the powers and fighting skills only, it is about routine execution. If Stroke could stop a faster, or a more powerful opponent before he gets to use that ability, it is a feat I would associate with Stroke more than I would with Batman. More on this in my reply to Comic Book fan.

[baneblade]

wolverine beat the new hellfire club in original sin and he beat apocalypse's horsemen and darkriders at the same time after breaking apocalypse's control over him. he can fight teams as well and he is verry stealthy he could take down this clumsy jla team.

 

I do not know bro, if the Hell Fire Club 'spar' is actually a win. Basically, one of their own blew the 'hell' out of the club to escape and knocked both Wolverine and his then standing opponent into the middle of next week. More than that, in both these instances, I still don't see these guys as credible opponents as Flash or Green Lantern. I also do not see them posing the threat in the time frame, that Zatanna, Flash or Lantern would. They are mostly melee fighters, with mad-ons to trounce, rather than coherent, articulate fighters that effect powers like Flash or Lantern. True all characters make mistakes, especially when in the heat of battle, but I would give Flash and Lantern leverage over your cited characters any day. Plus, the Hell Fire Club thing is doubtful as a credible win. True, he got em', but one of them still stood, and even had time to effect a salvo knocking Rine and his opponent silly. An OK example but one that still doesnot match time-wise, battle cred wise to the Stroke fights.

 

Check out even the instance when Stroke battles the Titans members, with Nightwing in the lead. Stroke merely shifts his frame by fractions of an inch, apperaing as if still standing, to let one of the most credible fighters, Batgirl lose her coherence and fall flat on her back. That is something I am hinting at in the fight we are debating on. Stroke avoided a fighter who lives to mimic body language and chart movements accordingly, on the fly, not with prep. Wolverine's movements in berserker mode or otherwise, have hardly been this articulate and calculated. He is a land and hit kind of guy, not an avert, capitalize, and then hit fella. (Mostly).

 

I am sorry that we are in the grey zone of discussion, where you see it one way, and I see it another. In that case, if the next post unveils it like so, we will call it a day in our discussion, since we will only be going in circles from there on.