CBUB Cleanup

[Guest bigballerju]

Jason and Jason X are not the same beings. They even had a comic series called Jason vs Jason X. There history and more are different. Also in Ultimate Ironman Tony has a brother named Gregory Stark and more. Ultimate Marvel is completely separate from the Main Marvel Universe and its on its own. Ultimate Hulk also is so different from Hulk 616 its not even funny. By the way Power Rangers after the Zordan era are completely different from each other. All the Buu's are Buu at different stages in his transformations and just have various power levels.

[TroytheRobot]

Woah, talk about a convoluted topic chalk full of cheap shots. Ah well, we definitely expected something like this to happen. We have what? Around 6,000 character entries? So, we're all bound to disagree (and miss a few things) at some point. In a sense, this is why Graves and I decided to make this topic; so you guys would feel free to whine (er debate, hehe) to your heart's content. Keep in mind, a lot of these suggestions come from different theories on the CBUB database that have been tossed around on the boards/chat for years. The whole issue of allowing alternate universe characters or not? Yeah that whole issue started LONG before most of you got here. Hell, it was going on long before I got here too. So when we're making the list Graves and I decided to bring the issue to the forefront instead of assuming that people would be comfortable with accepting the way things are.

 

As I mentioned, this debate is really all over the place but I'm just going to respond to the biggest issue at hand...

 

 

Alternate Universes

 

This is one of the biggest issues going on with the topic it seems. First off let's get something straight, we are well aware that there are difference between Thor and Ultimate Thor, Iron man and Ultimate Iron Man. We'll get back to that in a moment though. The question deals more with "Is there enough of a difference to warrant a separate entry in the CBUB." Let's talk about what a CBUB entry really is. It's essentially a placeholder, for a character. More specifically it's a placeholder that's representing a character in a generalized state. The CBUB was never meant to encompass characters through specific altercations. This is essentially why we don't have hundreds of Amazing Spider-Mans. I mean Amazing Fantasy #15's version of Peter Parker was very different than the one depicted in the comics today, why not give them separate entries? Because we're not concerned with each individual Peter Parker in the entire Spider-Man juncture. We're only concerned with the generally accepted imprint of who Spider-Man is.

 

Here's another way to think about it; imagine Thor being separated into different states of existence starting from his very first panel written in August of 1962 to his most recent panel appearance and had them stand in an impossibly long line shoulder to shoulder. Technically in these thousands and thousands of different "Thors" there are indeed differences between. Some of those difference are quite substantial, others are as simple as an arm lift. Nevertheless, that change of state represents a different Thor in different moments of time. What the CBUB is essentially trying to do is look for commonalities that are consistent with these numerous forms of Thor. We look for a "generalized" Thor that serves as a representative for all the states of existence Thor has gone through. Think of it as if there were a country of Thors, the Thor in the CBUB would represent those thousands (millions?) of other Thors out in Thorland in the CBUB. Makes sense?

 

Taking this same principle let's connect it to alternate-universe characters. Once again, we're faced with the same task of choosing a "representative" character to serve as the "model" character for countless different instances of differentiation. This time let's use Iron Man as an example. You have all the alternate version of Iron Man and have them stand in a row, shoulder to shoulder. In this row are every alternate-universe Iron Man ranging from Earth 616 to Earth 2122. First thing you'll probably notice is that there are indeed substantial differences between this legion of Starks that we've compiled. I mean look at the differences between Earth 2122 Iron Man and Earth 616 Iron Man. 2122 Iron Man is a member of the Sons of Liberty and has no problem with killing innocents. As we move down the line, we notice Earth 3490 in which Iron Man is not looking very manly at all but has assumed the identity of a woman named Natasha. Surely, these stark (look a bad pun) contrasts warrant different entries. Keep in mind though that we are only concerned with "the generally accepted imprint of who 'Iron Man' is" And so we once again look for commonalities between these numerous different Iron Men (and women, no I didn't forget you Natasha), and we see the central outline of what constitutes as "Iron Man" running consistent through mostly all of them. Yes, there are differences between these versions of characters, but the distinctions between them are not enough to alter the basic formula that has come to represent Iron Man. Of course if there was an Iron Man that was so completely different from it's original counterpart that only the most obscure minute details remained then that particular version of Iron would be "removed" from our line-up and not included in the Iron Man "equation".

 

That brings up another point, as the writer's of these scenarios you are in control of how this character is depicted and by extension what version of that particular character you're leaning towards. Want to use Earth 2122 Iron Man in a set-up? Great! Your based on the context of the match your reads should be able to infer that this Iron Man is different than Earth 616's version. I'm all for character specifics and intimate characterization but these differences do no serve as enough of an altercation to the original to serve as the "generally accepted imprint". Simply put, they're great in set-up text but not really in a database listing.

 

So in summary, keep the alternate version character entries extremely limited. Only when an alternate version is so strikingly different that the only similarity they posses (not just in name, setting, time period but in actual conceptual idea) are so obscure and minute that you'd need to use a proverbial microscope to see them.

[Guest force_echo]

Hey I was thinking, in light of all of the unused chars in the database, could we make it to where, if after a month of use if the character hasn't been used at least twice (or something along those lines), the character is deleted?

[Guest bigballerju]

That would be bad as then alot of characters would be gone who shouldn't be deleted. Alot of people on CBUB use the same damn characters in matches. Only a few people try and use different ones.

[C.T.]

Heck delete all but the most popular characters and force people to come up with new and creative matches with those characters. That'd be fun.

[Guest Darksaiyajin345]

This may just be me but I think you should get rid of Kid Goku but resubmit him under Son Goku (DBGT) and matches created with Kid Goku just us Son Goku. There are diffrences in the personalitys of DBGT/DBZ Goku for example he seems more inclined to kill people in DBGT than in DBZ (considering he did try to kill Pan/Naturon Shen-long but refused to throw the Genki Dama and kill Vegeta/Kid Boo) that one inparticular because it would effect how a match would turn out also since he was a kid in GT and GT had a seperate author than Z. Also with the Boos keep it the way it is but dont have a seperate character slot for Boohan or Bootenks since those are just transformations of Chou Boo instead of seperate characters with seperat motives like Mr.Boo/Fat Boo,Evil Boo,Chou Boo and Kid Boo who were all seperate characters as Chou Boo said if they took Mr.Boo out he wouldnt be him anymore he would be someone else.

[TroytheRobot]

I'd just like to reiterate that the issue at hand here is not really whether or not the characters are different, but if they're different enough for a CBUB entry to be justified. There's a huge difference between the two. So, it's not as simple as looking at two characters and seeing if they are in fact different characters. Again, yes we know that the Ultimate Marvel Universe is different than Earth 616 Marvel Universe but that's not our primary concern. Our primary concern is, as I mentioned in my previous post, to keep the database relatively restricted to those characters that serve as an "imprint" for that particular character.

 

Just wanted to make that clear.

[Marvel Man]

First of all, I think we should all thank Mr. Graves, Tarvius, serge, and all the other administrators who help run this site. Going through the database like that is not a fun thing to do. Thanks for doing the job for absolutely no pay. Really appreciate it.

 

Having said that, I want to know where the alternate universe characters will be after this. I totally agree with getting rid of the "Spider Man + Iron Suit" type characters, and although I'll mourn the Animated Series X-Men, I can understand why a simple change of media (comics being adapted to a tv show or a movie) is not allowed anymore. Those I can completely understand.

 

But as others have said, some of these characters are really, really different from one another. Using your Spider Man example, about how all the Spider Men can be neatly categorized as "Spider Powers + Troubled Teen", I must say that this type of thinking will unravel the CBUB database. Spider Man 2099 is not Peter Parker, he's not in high school, and he even has a different set of powers (sort of). Throwing him out simply because his name has Spider Man in it would be a bad decision.

 

Now, of course all the Spider Men will share something in common (change this to all the Shredders, all the Supermen, etc) that's the creators' way of saying, "Look, it's your favorite character- reimagined!" Otherwise, they'd call them something else. Before I start defending Iron Suit Spider Man though, I must admit that I agree with a lot of what Tarvius has been saying. The difference between the characters must be great. Manga Spider Man is still Spider Man, just in Japan. Zombie Spider Man is still Spider Man, just a zombie (although I really like this version).

 

But I fear that this new way of thinking will overlook a lot of key differences that only true fans know and cherish. A fellow member of this site, Rakai, is a big TMNT fan, and I agree with his comments on the 1987 TMNT being radically different from the Mirage version found in the comics. The comic book version had the turtles slicing off people's heads and being extremely violent, which the 1987 version ignored in favor of a more child friendly "Cowabunga" Color Coded turtles. The 1987 Turtles even had those movies, and Vanilla Ice sang in one of them! They're almost completely different characters. Think about the difference between "The Dark Knight Returns" and Adam West's Batman.

 

Of course, to a non-fan, they're still just four turtles trained by a giant rat who fight bad guys.

 

If we continue down that road, should we remove Gladiator, Ultraman, Sentry, Hyperion, Black Zero, etc, because they can all fly, have super strength, and some sort of super vision? Should we just keep Superman, and have the writers tell us which similar character it is. After all, Ultraman is just evil counter-earth Superman. Red Son Superman is just communist Superman. The Sentry is just badly written blond Superman. Etc. Where does is stop?

 

MARVANOTE: Also, I highly recommend Turtles Forever. Good movie. Lot of love for the characters there.

 

MARVAMARVANOTE: I also feel like splitting up some of the duos is a little too much. Yes, Thor and Cap should be split up, but Batman and Robin? Carter & Lee? Harold & Kumar? Who wants to just use Kumar without Harold? I mean, they're always together. I feel like doing this will make me a tad sad. If I make a Batman & Robin match now, it won't count in their match record. It shall not last the test of time...

 

MARVAMARVAMARVANOTE: Generc characters can go though. I like the cool ones, like ninjas or vikings, but it's hard to accept some and not others. Tons of great matches could be made with them though... *sigh*

[RakaiThwei]

But I fear that this new way of thinking will overlook a lot of key differences that only true fans know and cherish. A fellow member of this site, Rakai, is a big TMNT fan, and I agree with his comments on the 1987 TMNT being radically different from the Mirage version found in the comics. The comic book version had the turtles slicing off people's heads and being extremely violent, which the 1987 version ignored in favor of a more child friendly "Cowabunga" Color Coded turtles. The 1987 Turtles even had those movies, and Vanilla Ice sang in one of them! They're almost completely different characters. Think about the difference between "The Dark Knight Returns" and Adam West's Batman.

 

Actually, the Live Action TMNT are also considered to be seperate Turtles from the 1987, 2003, and Mirage Universe counterparts. Turtles Forever showed the Live Action universe being separate along with other TMNT Universes like the Michael Zooli TMNT, Archie Comics TMNT, and the 2007 Craptacular CGI TMNT.

 

Of course, while the Mirage, 1987 Toon, 1990s Live Action and 2003 Toon TMNT warrant their own Universes and perhaps entries here on the CBUB as the Mirage, 1987 Toon, 2003 Toon occupied each others universes in the same time and space.

 

The differences with these respective TMNT are vastly, and notably different.

 

Even their time frames are different and Turtles Forever showed this.

 

Mirage TMNT - 1984

1987 TMNT- 1987

2003 TMNT- 2003 to Present

 

But each of these Turtles have their own personalities, fighting styles, appearances and even voices.

 

MARVANOTE: Also, I highly recommend Turtles Forever. Good movie. Lot of love for the characters there.

 

Holy shit, a Marvel fan acknowledging and respecting the TMNT?! HALLELUJAH!

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Guest shellsbut]

just to let you guys know. Lilith is actually Mother of Demons not Mother of all Demons as you said it should be corrected to. source, Marvel Comics itself. The name reffers to the fact she births her demon spawn, as she is not the mother of ALL demons.

 

It is actually the Wikipedia entry that is wrong

[Helen C]

Here's the thing though: You can differentiate in the set up. If a Superman is Kal El/Clark Kent from Krypton, then he should just go under Superman. If it has to be Red Son Superman, then say that in the set up. If they are 4 mutant Turtles that are ninjas and named after renaissance artists, then they go under the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. If you want it to be the 1980's cartoon, say in the set up. The argument that DBZ and DBGT Goku should be different is even sillier. One series is a direct continuation of the other, regardless of arguments about "canon".

 

Exceptions I would argue: Ultimate Spider-Man, Peter Parker, and 616 Spider-Man, Peter Parker should both come under the same character sheet. Miles Morales, Ben Reilly, Spider-Man 2099 etc. should be different a they are distinctly different characters that are not Peter Parker.

[Buzz Line]

Yeah, "Movie Verse" Power rangers are still the Zordon era so that argument is invalid. They have the same exact powers, and the same exact members. The only difference is the circumstances that tv verse and movie verse get their members and powers.

 

I'm not talking about all the teams of future seasons like "Ninja Storm" Power Rangers, I'm talking about the "Mighty Morphin" having two entries and they should only have one.

 

The thing about the Buus. They exist at the same time, and interact with each other. True, they are capable of merging together to become one being, but so are M and Hollow, several Transformers, a few Digimon and the symbiotes. The fact is they are different individuals coexisting along side each other, so it would make sense if someone wanted to do Uub and Fat Buu vs Green Lantern(Hal Jordan) and Mogo The Green Lantern Planet. The Buu's don't even have the same techniques, Kid Buu is the only one who has the Vanishing Ball for example but he likes the "Turn Into" beam Fat Buu has.

 

But then Kid Goku, Kid Gohan, Mystic Gohan those are not separate characters. Those are the same guys. Any difference between the "versions" can be described as character development and the differences aren't that major. Goku gets smarter as he learns about the larger world and gets better at fighting. Gohan becomes less cowardly, goes to school and gets better at fighting...

 

That said I do have a way we can keep Kid Goku. You could change him to Goku (Dr. Slump Remake). That, I guess, could pass as an "Alternate Universe Version." Mirai Gohan can maybe stay. He's another "alternate Timeline" case(though he doesn't meet himself like Trunks), Kid Gohan should go. Mystic Gohan should just be renamed to Gohan and have pictures of how he aged over the series.

 

I'm only interested in clearing out the duplicates right now. I think we should focus mostly on those first and worry about characters like "Punk On The Bus" later. True, if your character doesn't even have a name you should have a really good excuse for adding him but at least there is only one "Punk on the bus" in the database.

[Mercenaryblade]

Fantasy:

Babydoll, Sweet Pea, Rocket, Blondie & Amber: No way to combine these?

 

How about just call them The SuckerPunch Girls? (That kind of sounds like a band name)

[Venom 2009]

Here is a list of characters that I added to discuss about.

 

JSSDF (Evangelion): Wiki page no longer functional, this entry needs revision or deletion

 

Nerv: Wiki page no longer functional, this entry needs revision or deletion

 

Well to let you all know, I'm not going to revise them. Because they have been on the site for along time, and no one has ever used them in a match. So I'm not going to look for new links for characters that are never going to be used. So you can delete them.

 

 

Mangaverse Black Cat: Isn't this just a manga version of Black Cat?

 

She is another version of Black Cat from another dimension. However, she has been on the site for along time now, and has never been in a match. I don't think anyone is going to put her in a match. So you can go ahead and delete her.

 

 

Mighty Morphin Power Rangers (Movie Universe): How different is this from the TV show version of the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers? This can entry can probably be removed

 

I don't know why everyone is making a big deal about it. The movie is different from the tv show. But I'm not going to defend the movie version. Everyone seems to hate that there are two Mighty Morphin Power Rangers now, and no one likes the movie version. Also, the movie Rangers has only been in one match which was made by me. So I don't think anyone else is going to use them in a match. So go ahead and remove the movie version.

 

 

Masked Rider (Dex Stewart): Are there other Masked Riders? If not remove parentheses

 

To tell you the truth, when I submitted him, he was just called Masked Rider. Whoever reviewed him decided to put the parentheses with his name. So yea, I think its pointless to have the parentheses, and remove it from his name.

 

 

The Blob (Monster): Should be The Blob (Paramount Pictures)

 

Yea, I guess we can rename it The Blob (Paramount Pictures)

 

 

Weiss Kreuz (Knight Hunters): Parentheses seem unnecessary

 

Well they were both called Weiss Kreuz and Knight Hunters, and I didn't know what to call them. But I think we can just call them Weiss Kreuz and take out the parentheses.

[Buzz Line]

Not everyone Venom 2009, just me making the case. You're free to disagree with me, this is a debate after all.

[Gizmo Hibiki]

Spliting Jay and Silent Bob? That's like splitting Harold and Kumar, it's just not right....

[RakaiThwei]

Masked Rider (Dex Stewart): Are there other Masked Riders? If not remove parentheses

 

To tell you the truth, when I submitted him, he was just called Masked Rider. Whoever reviewed him decided to put the parentheses with his name. So yea, I think its pointless to have the parentheses, and remove it from his name.

 

 

Actually yes, there are other Masked Riders on the CBUB database because I added them up by their Japanese names, Kamen Riders. You can see these characters by viewing my profile.

 

Ironically enough, I added Kamen Rider Black RX, whom Saban's Masked Rider is based off of, but Masked Rider and Kamen Rider Black RX are ENTIERLY DIFFERENT characters. For one, Kamen Rider Black RX is a human named Minami Kotaro. Saban's Masked Rider is named Dex Stewart who is an insect humanoid-alien.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Buzz Line]

Yeah, some teams are defined by their partnership. Jay and Silent Bob are two who are almost never seen apart. X and Zero could stand to be separate though. They've had plenty of appearances without the other. Captain America and Thor could be split up. They are just two members of a larger team. The same for Batman and Robin, only because they are both included in the Batman Family.

 

Some characters added I question, as I feel they add nothing unique to the database in terms of ability or personality but that's just my opinion. I think "never been used or not used at all" isn't exactly the best way to delete people. Bardock hadn't been used for awhile but gained some popularity and since he still occasionally appears in comics he may get more use in the future. There isn't much reason for nobody to use Autobot Elite or Bumble Bee, the other Transformers get used fairly regularly so someone must know who they are. Similarly all the X-men fans should have a passing understanding of the Danger Room, they probably haven't found it in the database yet. I didn't know Michael Jordan was there for a while, I was surprised to see no one had used Cúchulainn yet so I did. I'm sure someone in the future might be ecstatic to see Domino Lady or Kill Bill person who died after one fight scene even though the people on the sight right now could care less about them. I really think we should be encouraging people to use different characters, but slowly, people are starting to use them(see Jake Sully)...lack of use could be a symptom of the CBUB's shrunken user base as a whole.

 

What burns me is multiple spots dedicated to the same person when everything else barely gets touched. Some of my accusation have come under fire. I'll have to apologize for some mistakes on my part, others I might be willing to compromise on but I think the character adding box should have a disclaimer for the sender to make sure they aren't close enough to be substituted by someone already there. For the existing duplicates, who are obviously contentious on who qualifies and who is justified, maybe polls should be held. We can use the old Back Issue's system for them. Poll linked at the Top of the CBUB matches "Should Armored Spider-man be deleted?" then the link gives pros and cons. Pros for keeping him:He has harder armor than normal spider-man. Cons for keeping:He's still the same guy under the armor and can choose to wear it whenever. Just say how spider-man is equipped in the setup. Then we can keep an archive on the forum of the poll results to consult whenever the topic comes up again.

 

But if someone wants to do Hercules from the Labors vs Hercules from the Argonauts they can use test character Zero. They are the same person, specify situational details in the setup. When I see that one time Spider-man had armor I think of that one time I was drunk, or that one time I carried a shotgun. When I see multiple Jubilees in different outfits it reminds me that Shaq has been on multiple sports teams but he'll always be Shaq.

[Gizmo Hibiki]

I really want to ask what is Test Character Zero exactly??

[Venom 2009]

RakaiThwei said:

Actually yes, there are other Masked Riders on the CBUB database because I added them up by their Japanese names, Kamen Riders. You can see these characters by viewing my profile.

 

Ironically enough, I added Kamen Rider Black RX, whom Saban's Masked Rider is based off of, but Masked Rider and Kamen Rider Black RX are ENTIERLY DIFFERENT characters. For one, Kamen Rider Black RX is a human named Minami Kotaro. Saban's Masked Rider is named Dex Stewart who is an insect humanoid-alien.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

 

Yea, I know that there are other Kamen Riders on the site, and that kamen means mask. But I think we should just called him Masked Rider. I know that Masked Rider is based on Kamen Rider Black RX, but at the same time he is completely different from him. I mean the others are called Kamen Rider, while he is just called Masked Rider. Yes, his real name is Dex Stewart, but I don't think we need the parentheses.

[patrickthekid]

I really want to ask what is Test Character Zero exactly??

It's a mysterious force that hardly ever comes out into the open at Khazan. No one has ever seen his true face, but he takes on the face of others and roams the land doing whatever he wants to do.

 

Actually, the profile is used in place of someone who is not in the databases.

[Gizmo Hibiki]

Actually, the profile is used in place of someone who is not in the databases.

What?

[Gizmo Hibiki]

What they need to do is put every pokemon that is the anime section into the videogame section since pokemon are not anime characters, they are from videogames.

[patrickthekid]

What?

If you can't find a person or group in the CBUB databases and you're too lazy to add that person/team or the team is too random, you use Test Character Zero.

[TroytheRobot]

All of your input is being taken into account as Graves and I work on creating a master list for the CBUB database clean-up. Keep in mind, this thread is in no way, shape or form a democratic one. However, we will try to take into account everyone's positions and implement the ones we feel are most beneficial and make the most sense.

 

There's not really a projected date on when this is going to be done, but "in the near future" is as good an estimate as I can give. Feel free to keep discussing the database, but I'd prefer if we moved away from the argument of alternate-realities. Not to say that it isn't important, but I want to make sure we're considering other aspects of the database clean-up.

 

Thanks