5:4 - Red Robin vs. Azrael

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 5, ROUND 4

Red Robin

Slot: The Team's Mid-Level Superhero
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Red Robin at Wikipedia
Official Site: DC Comics

Azrael

Slot: The Team's Mid-Level Superhero
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Azrael at Wikipedia
Official Site: D.C Comics

Battle Terrain
Combat Terrain: Planet Dune

[C.T.]

Tim and going up against his bat family brethren. Feels bad, man.

[Mercenaryblade]

Ooooh, damn. This is tough to call, I might give it to Tim and not just because he's my guy here. 

My reasoning is Azrael can be a bit unstable, and Tim's worked with him before and he's got a keen mind. He might know what buttons to push to throw Azrael off his game.

Arrakis will make for interesting setting, not sure it would tip the fight in anyone's favor though. 

[Macklemore]

5 hours ago, Mercenaryblade said:

Ooooh, damn. This is tough to call, I might give it to Tim and not just because he's my guy here. 

My reasoning is Azrael can be a bit unstable, and Tim's worked with him before and he's got a keen mind. He might know what buttons to push to throw Azrael off his game.

Arrakis will make for interesting setting, not sure it would tip the fight in anyone's favor though. 

I straight up disagree. Azrael is physically a superior Batman and this version of Robin isn't even fit to shine Bruce's boots.

[Mercenaryblade]

3 hours ago, Macklemore said:

 this version of Robin isn't even fit to shine Bruce's boots.

The same Robin that even Ra's Al Ghul called detective? This Robin? Are you sure this isn't a personal dislike?  

[Macklemore]

6 hours ago, Mercenaryblade said:

The same Robin that even Ra's Al Ghul called detective? This Robin? Are you sure this isn't a personal dislike?  

My point is, Tim Drake is always seen as below Jason Hood, Dick Grayson and Cassandra Cain when it comes to who's the best Batman sidekick. It's important, cause Nightwing himself (commonly referred to as the BEST sidekick, and sometimes even seen as better than Batman in some regards) has stated that Azrael is better than any one of them. It's not personal dislike, I just know enough about the Bat Family to know that Ra's Al Ghul calling this specific version of Robin detective doesn't mean anything. Detective is merely a title, it doesn't help anything in a 1 on 1 fight.

[Peypeypeypey]

35 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

My point is, Tim Drake is always seen as below Jason Hood, Dick Grayson and Cassandra Cain when it comes to who's the best Batman sidekick. It's important, cause Nightwing himself (commonly referred to as the BEST sidekick, and sometimes even seen as better than Batman in some regards) has stated that Azrael is better than any one of them. It's not personal dislike, I just know enough about the Bat Family to know that Ra's Al Ghul calling this specific version of Robin detective doesn't mean anything. Detective is merely a title, it doesn't help anything in a 1 on 1 fight.

I think your interpretation of that statement is somewhat misleading. Nightwing doesn't say Azrael is "better" than the Batfamily. He doesn't even say he could beat them in a fight. He says he's faster and stronger, which is true. We know his physicals are better. That's no secret. But that doesn't mean that he would necessarily win in a 1 on 1 fight. I'm not weighing in one way or the other but that interpretation seems sketchy to me

[Macklemore]

1 minute ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I think your interpretation of that statement is somewhat misleading. Nightwing doesn't say Azrael is "better" than the Batfamily. He doesn't even say he could beat them in a fight. He says he's faster and stronger, which is true. We know his physicals are better. That's no secret. But that doesn't mean that he would necessarily win in a 1 on 1 fight. I'm not weighing in one way or the other but that interpretation seems sketchy to me

Being faster and stronger in a 1-on-1 fight when there's no prep involved is usually all that's needed to win a fight. Sure, the two know each other, but there's no way for Tim Drake to tap into Azrael's mental illness which is the ONLY weakness that Azrael has, beyond the usual human weaknesses. Furthermore, this fight has already happened in Knightfall and Azrael manhandled him.

[C.T.]

Tim is definitely clever but with no time to plan like this and with his combat prowess not as good as others in the Batfamily, the odds are stacked against him. In recent times it took Cassandra and Kate together(both said to be better fighters than Tim) to fight against him: 

https://comicnewbies.com/2017/07/29/batwoman-and-orphan-vs-azrael-rebirth/amp/

And even then he didn’t get put down until Zatanna came in and finished the job. 

[Peypeypeypey]

23 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Tim is definitely clever but with no time to plan like this and with his combat prowess not as good as others in the Batfamily, the odds are stacked against him. In recent times it took Cassandra and Kate together(both said to be better fighters than Tim) to fight against him: 

https://comicnewbies.com/2017/07/29/batwoman-and-orphan-vs-azrael-rebirth/amp/

And even then he didn’t get put down until Zatanna came in and finished the job. 

So I'm definitely splitting hairs here, but he didn't even land a solid hit on Cassandra from what I could see. She was pretty consistently smacking him around and his main assault was on Kate. They also had solidly beaten him before Zatanna came in. Is it an impressive feat? Sure. But it's definitely not "he beat both of them and they needed Zatanna to save them"

[C.T.]

10 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

So I'm definitely splitting hairs here, but he didn't even land a solid hit on Cassandra from what I could see. She was pretty consistently smacking him around and his main assault was on Kate. They also had solidly beaten him before Zatanna came in. Is it an impressive feat? Sure. But it's definitely not "he beat both of them and they needed Zatanna to save them"

Well, that’s not what I said. In no way did he beat both of them, not even close. I said it took both of them to fight against him, with both being Tim’s superiors in combat prowess and even so he refused to yield until Zatanna put him in a nap. The point being that while Tim is undeniably a genius and worthy of being called detective by Ra’s, I just don’t see him putting up too much of a fight. 

[C.T.]

Though, admittedly, Cass might have been able to do it on her own. But that speaks more to her level of badass than it does downplaying Az as a threat, given how she’s fought with and prevailed against many of the DC universe’s best martial artists, like the Batfamily, her mom Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger, among others. Some multiple times. 
 

Still, even if she could 1 v 1, I don’t see how Tim could manage to do it without having the chance to prepare.

[Mercenaryblade]

2 hours ago, Macklemore said:

Being faster and stronger in a 1-on-1 fight when there's no prep involved is usually all that's needed to win a fight. Sure, the two know each other, but there's no way for Tim Drake to tap into Azrael's mental illness which is the ONLY weakness that Azrael has, beyond the usual human weaknesses. Furthermore, this fight has already happened in Knightfall and Azrael manhandled him.

I'm not so sure man, Tim does know Azrael and much like Bruce thinks about how to beat opponents with an advantage over him. You did mention knightfall, but Red Robin Tim Drake has put in quite a bit more experience since then. Also undoubtedly learned from that fight too. I think he just may have a few scenarios in mind for: Azrael wants to fight.

[SSJRuss]

14 hours ago, Macklemore said:

Being faster and stronger in a 1-on-1 fight when there's no prep involved is usually all that's needed to win a fight. Sure, the two know each other, but there's no way for Tim Drake to tap into Azrael's mental illness which is the ONLY weakness that Azrael has, beyond the usual human weaknesses. Furthermore, this fight has already happened in Knightfall and Azrael manhandled him.

As much as I love Tim, I agree that Azrael can take him in this scenario. There isn't much to the environment here for different things to play out. It's mostly just a straight fight in sand and don't think Tim can cut it here.

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Red Robin: 5
Azrael: 11