4 way 4 man team battle

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Cap is going to keep it close, so Batman would be foolish to use his flashbangs and what not.

If he reaches into his belt Cap could and would capitalize on Batman's slightly more vunerable position.

Batman doesn't do particularly well against richocheting objrcts either. I distinctly remember an issue where Nightwing schooled Batman by using his escrima sticks to richochet off of the wall behind Bats and knocked him off guard, almost staggering him.

 

Cap could do the same easily, except with more precision, force, and ruthlessness.

So to say Batman doesn't get defeated fairly easily by Cap is silly.

I believe Methos has described why Batman would lose in more detail, though I don't remember which topic it was.

 

Also, even though Bats could lead his team very efficiently since he trained them, Cap's tactical prowess and the overall ruthlessness of his team cleary prevents Batman and company from posing too much of a threat.

I agree that Marvel wins, but not on account of Cap.

 

I don't understand. Is Cap going to keep it close, or throw his shield? He can't do both. If he throws his shield, Batman dodges and hits him while he's vulnerable, if he doesn't Batman fights him  up close and wins on account of his superior skill.

 

The only time I recall Batman fighting Nightwing was in Batman 600#, where he isn't really trying to fight, and makes Dick look stupid by avoiding all his attacks and letting Nightwing hit him once.

[Guest Darxeth]

He can do both. Say he throws his shield and spin kicks simultaneously. Batman would be hard preased to dodge both and would probably think Cap missed with his shield, as he did when Nightwing used his escrima sticks.

[Guest Darxeth]

He can do both. Say he throws his shield and spin kicks simultaneously. Batman would be hard pressed to dodge both and would probably think Cap missed with his shield, as he did when Nightwing used his escrima sticks.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

He can do both. Say he throws his shield and spin kicks simultaneously. Batman would be hard pressed to dodge both and would probably think Cap missed with his shield, as he did when Nightwing used his escrima sticks.

Okay, how would Batman be hard pressed to dodge both? The shield doesn't move faster than bullets, so Batman could dodge it. And I would love to see the result of Cap turning his back on Batman for a spin kick or shield throw. Captain America's only advantage here is his physicality, and that difference is so small it's not really a factor. Batman is the better tactician, has a massive array of gadgets to turn the fight in his favor, and is a better fighter. Batman would beat Cap.

[Guest bigballerju]

Yeah the difference between Cap and Batman physically is bigger then you think. It's not small.

[Guest force_echo]

Are you kidding me? The physical difference between Batman and Captain America is huge. Cap is far faster and stronger, and has unlimited stamina. If anything, it's the skill difference that's small, Captain America's one of the best fighters in the MU, and while Batman's probably marginally more skilled, it doesn't really matter. Plus Cap's got a far better Close Combat Weapon.

 

Also, for like the fifth time, Batman doesn't carry flashbangs in his utility belt, everyone assumes he does for some reason and I don't know why. Gas won't do anything to Cap, as he can hold his breath for an extremely long time, and can see through the smoke. 

[Guest Darxeth]

Heh.

You keep missing the point.

Batman is awful at dodging richocheting objects.

Say Cap throws his shield and makes it seem like he missed, then spin Kicks.

Bats comes from behind to choke him and gets rocked in the back of the head by the shield.

It's a win/win.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

 

Batman is awful at dodging richocheting objects.

 

 

What the hell are you basing this on?

 

 

Are you kidding me? The physical difference between Batman and Captain America is huge. Cap is far faster and stronger, and has unlimited stamina. If anything, it's the skill difference that's small, Captain America's one of the best fighters in the MU, and while Batman's probably marginally more skilled, it doesn't really matter. Plus Cap's got a far better Close Combat Weapon.

 

Also, for like the fifth time, Batman doesn't carry flashbangs in his utility belt, everyone assumes he does for some reason and I don't know why. Gas won't do anything to Cap, as he can hold his breath for an extremely long time, and can see through the smoke. 

 

No, it's really not. Unlimited stamina? No, just extremely high endurance. And what martial arts feats does Cap have that put him near Batman in skill? The difference in skill is larger than the physical difference.

 

It's so easy to fight while holding your breath right? He can't see through smoke, he just isn't as affected by gas.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

This is what gets me most about the "bullet timing" thing.

 

You can argue from comic book evidence: (Batman can dodge bullets) but then you have to accept the comic book evidence on the other side (Captain America's shield is more accurate and harder to dodge than a bullet.)

 

You can go the other way and be strictly realistic: (Captain America's shield is much slower than a bullet) but you should be just as realistic with the other side (it is physically impossible for a human being, even Batman, to dodge a bullet.)

 

What makes no sense is to try to use comic book evidence on one side of the argument and strict logic on the other. 

[Guest thanosisawesome]

 

This is what gets me most about the "bullet timing" thing.

 

You can argue from comic book evidence: (Batman can dodge bullets) but then you have to accept the comic book evidence on the other side (Captain America's shield is more accurate and harder to dodge than a bullet.)

 

You can go the other way and be strictly realistic: (Captain America's shield is much slower than a bullet) but you should be just as realistic with the other side (it is physically impossible for a human being, even Batman, to dodge a bullet.)

 

What makes no sense is to try to use comic book evidence on one side of the argument and strict logic on the other. 

 

What evidence is there showing that Cap's shield is more difficult to dodge than a bullet?

[Guest Darxeth]

The fact that Cap hits people who regularly dodge bullets. (Daredevil being the first one to come to mind)

[Guest bigballerju]

To be fair regular humans like Punisher have stopped his Shield. Batman during battle could find a way to redirect it's path or dodge it. That's won't be a problem for him. Cap's physical abilities, experience, and good fighting skills is what gives him the win. Cap has enough of a physical advantage it makes a big difference. Hence why even in JLA vs Avengers it was said Cap would beat Batman.

 

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

And scene where Cap and a bunch of soldiers, or SHIELD agents are attacking Hydra (or AIM, or *uncreative* soldiers, or any other group that relies on more-or-less conventional soldiers.) Watch the Captain America movie, or the Avengers EMH episode that introduces him. This  kind of scenario also shows up a lit in issues of Cap's title in the 60s and 70s.

 

Cap takes out more enemy troops by throwing his shield than any of his allies does with firearms. Sometimes he is more effective by throwing his shield than a whole squad of men with submachine-guns. This is only possible if the shield is both more accurate and harder to avoid than bullets.

 

What's going on is that there's a common convention in comics that guns are worthless. The bad guys have guns but they are (illogically) less effective than the batarangs, shields, arrows, billy clubs, or fists. The heroes can dodge bullets and can take out characters with their other weapons better than a policemen or soldier can with a gun. This rule applies to Cap, Batman, DD, and pretty much every other character who would logically be shot dead otherwise.

 

You can assume that a character like Batman can dodge a bullet but it looks like what you're doing is construction a faulty syllogism.

 

Premise: Batman can (always) dodge bullets.

Premise: A bullet is faster than Captain America's shield.

Conclusion: Batman can (always) dodge Captain America's shield.

 

There are a lot of flaws in this; let's start with the first premise.

 

There are some scans of Character X dodging bullets. This illogical because human beings cannot react this fast. You'd have to have a nervous system that operates about 10 times faster than what is humanly possible even to have a chance at doing this. That's okay, though because writers occasionally trump logic with the rule of cool, which is unrealistic, but fun, as long as they don't abuse it.

 

But people draw a ridiculous conclusion from this. If Character X can dodge one bullet, he must be able to dodge any bullet. He's a "legitimate bullet timer" and bullets are useless against him. This is a little like watching somebody having a good practice session at dodgeball and concluding that "balls can't kit him." This also ignores all the times Character X is seen ducking for cover to keep from getting shot, and the times he has actually been shot (both have happened to Batman, BTW). You've got a very badly flawed premise here.

 

The second premise is pretty straightforward. Captain America's shield is slower than a bullet. The problem is that you've used used comic book logic for one premise and real world logic for the other. You're changing the rules in mid-syllogism to get to the conclusion you want.

 

The conclusion sounds logical, but let's see how it plays out. Cap's shield is incapable of hitting Batman because it's slower than a bullet. That means that nothing can hit Batman unless it's faster than a bullet. Nobody can ever succeed in punching or kicking or grabbing him because human punching and kicking speed is much slower than even the slowest bullet. Your logic means that someone would need to throw a punch significantly faster than bullet speed just to have a chance at hitting Batman. To give you an idea how fast, the punch would need to be supersonic and would cause a sonic boom.

 

Bane has punched Batman, is Bane a supersonic puncher?

The Joker has punched Batman, is the Joker a supersonic puncher?

There have been a number of ordinary Gotham criminals who have punched Batman. Are they all supersonic punchers?

 

I know this is ridiculous, but when you try to be logical about one character while allowing the other to be illogical you're going to create this kind of nonsense every time.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

In the crossover, it didn't say Cap would win. What happened was, Batman knew something else was going on and didn't want to waste time fighting Cap.

 

And Dinsdale, I'm not saying that Cap won't hit Batman with his shield. In 4 out of ten fights, he would probably nail him to the wall. But, I believe that in MOST cases, Batman would be able to to dodge the shield. Thus, it is a logical conclusion that Batman would win most of the time, and dodge the shield most of the time, since plenty of characters have done so before. And I'm still waiting on evidence that Cap is vastly more physically powerful than Batman. 

[Guest bigballerju]

Edit

[Guest bigballerju]

Oh yes it did and Batman said it himself that Captain America would win. You need evidence that Cap is vastly superior to Batman physically? That's common knowledge as a comic fan if you have actually read Cap comics.

[Guest force_echo]

What the hell are you basing this on?

 

 

 

No, it's really not. Unlimited stamina? No, just extremely high endurance. And what martial arts feats does Cap have that put him near Batman in skill? The difference in skill is larger than the physical difference.

 

It's so easy to fight while holding your breath right? He can't see through smoke, he just isn't as affected by gas.

 

He has fought at peak physical capacity for 3 days straight before in WWII. I'm pretty sure that's functionally unlimited endurance. Umm, let's see, how about beating every top martial artist in the MU, including Iron Fist and Daredevil?  Cap has done stuff like throwing his shield fast enough to catch a SUPERSONIC MISSILE and rip it in half, and deflecting a bullet already fired across the room from someone else with his shield.

 

A long time. He can hold his breath for 10 minutes with little discomfort while doing strenuous activity. Also, "Rogers cannot become intoxicated by alcohol, drugs, or impurities in the air and is immune to terrestrial diseases. He is also highly resistant to hypnosis or gases that could limit his focus."

[Guest bigballerju]

Let's see he can run 30 to 49 miles her hour, can leap 50 yards out, bench presses 1200 pounds, can go for a hour without any rest, reaction speed at 20 kph, got from a several stories fall with no problem, heals much faster then the regular human, and more. Yeah vast physical abilities which put him way over Batman. 

[Guest Darxeth]

I don't remember the issue, but Batman was fighting Nightwing and Nightwing through his escrima stick and made it look like he missed, in which Batman stated: "You missed."

The escrima stick richocheted from behind Batman and hit him in the neck, staggering him.

Nightwing then replied: "No, I just had a good teacher."

 

Cap could pull off the same technique but with more force and more precision.

Batman wouldn't know what hit him.

 

Seriously, in a straight up fight, Cap beats Bats. I know you're a big fan of Batman so a certain amount of Bias blinds you from seeing clearly, but sometimes you have to realize when you've lost an argument. And from reading the posts on this topic, you sir, have lost. (In regards to Bat vs. cap)

[Guest thanosisawesome]

I don't remember the issue, but Batman was fighting Nightwing and Nightwing through his escrima stick and made it look like he missed, in which Batman stated: "You missed."

The escrima stick richocheted from behind Batman and hit him in the neck, staggering him.

Nightwing then replied: "No, I just had a good teacher."

 

Cap could pull off the same technique but with more force and more precision.

Batman wouldn't know what hit him.

 

Seriously, in a straight up fight, Cap beats Bats. I know you're a big fan of Batman so a certain amount of Bias blinds you from seeing clearly, but sometimes you have to realize when you've lost an argument. And from reading the posts on this topic, you sir, have lost. (In regards to Bat vs. cap)

 

No, sorry, I haven't. You have just cited some unknown instance of Batman being hit by a ricocheting object. Just because I like Batman doesn't mean you can invalidate my argument.

 

 

 

Let's see he can run 30 to 49 miles her hour, can leap 50 yards out, bench presses 1200 pounds, can go for a hour without any rest, reaction speed at 20 kph, got from a several stories fall with no problem, heals much faster then the regular human, and more. Yeah vast physical abilities which put him way over Batman. 

 

Lets see, 300 lb triceps press (if you know anything about weights you know how insane that is), survived in vacuum for 24 seconds, benches over 1,200 lbs, gets shot with a sniper then runs down a car, and survives having a shovel rammed into his chest. Yeah, physical abilities that put him slightly below Cap.

 

 

 

He has fought at peak physical capacity for 3 days straight before in WWII. I'm pretty sure that's functionally unlimited endurance. Umm, let's see, how about beating every top martial artist in the MU, including Iron Fist and Daredevil?  Cap has done stuff like throwing his shield fast enough to catch a SUPERSONIC MISSILE and rip it in half, and deflecting a bullet already fired across the room from someone else with his shield.

 

A long time. He can hold his breath for 10 minutes with little discomfort while doing strenuous activity. Also, "Rogers cannot become intoxicated by alcohol, drugs, or impurities in the air and is immune to terrestrial diseases. He is also highly resistant to hypnosis or gases that could limit his focus."

 

For the purposes of this fight, it is. Batman is more skilled than Daredevil, and when has Captain America beaten Iron Fist? And Batman swats half a dozen bullets out of the air from across the room.

 

Conceded. But that says nothing about clouding his vision.

[Guest bigballerju]

You either lack serious knowledge on Captain America or you are as always being biased when it comes to Batman if you think their close physically. Let's end this right now. Batman said himself in JLA vs Avengers which was canon that Cap would win. You

 

[xLEGACYx]

You either lack serious knowledge on Captain America or you are as always being biased when it comes to Batman if you think their close physically. Let's end this right now. Batman said himself in JLA vs Avengers which was canon that Cap would win. You

 

Saying its conceivable Cap could beat him is not a sure thing.  It means that Bats can tell by the small encounter that he is highly skilled, strong, and fast.  With the two of them fighting it would be 50/50.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

You either lack serious knowledge on Captain America or you are as always being biased when it comes to Batman if you think their close physically. Let's end this right now. Batman said himself in JLA vs Avengers which was canon that Cap would win. You

 

 

Lol. Either read the scan you posted, or google the word conceivable. As for physicals, I like how you couldn't provide any feats putting Cap leagues ahead of Batman as you keep saying. Every time I debate Batman, people call me biased, and I admittedly am. But this doesn't invalidate my arguments, which haven't been disproven. So instead of complaining about my bias and making  statements with virtually no evidence, try to actually counter my arguments.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Saying its conceivable Cap could beat him is not a sure thing.  It means that Bats can tell by the small encounter that he is highly skilled, strong, and fast.  With the two of them fighting it would be 50/50.

 

Right, a fight between them could conceivably go either way.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

...when has Captain America beaten Iron Fist? 

 

Iron Fist, Vol 1 #12