The Imperium of Man (pre-Horus Heresy) vs Galactic Empire (at its peak)

[Skirmisher]

Now you are simply stating something I have been saying since the beginning of the discussion, that while the GR, GE, NR etc hasn't been everywhere personally, someone has. And, combining all the knowledge/exploration of all the governments in Star Wars it is very likely that most systems have been explored.

Then why does it say that the are vast unexplored sectors of the Galaxy? My question has been that if Hyper Space Travel is as fast as you say it is, then long ago the whole of the galaxy would have been thoroughly explored, if not by Official Galactic Government personnel then most definitely by third parties within the Galactic Governments. Yet this did not happen, not in the 25,000 years of FTL travel.

 

 

 

I offer an addendum to your analogy.

I have a car, I can now, if I choose, go out and explore the wilderness of planet Earth.

Why should I?

Is someone paying me? How much? Will I make a profit after I factor in fuel costs, travel costs, supply costs, and medicine costs?

If I get into any trouble out there, can I count on some help from the police, or the government? Or am I on my own? If so, why would I go without backup?

Is there anything interesting there?

Are there people there? Are they friendly or hostile? How many of them are there? Can I safely outrun them?

Is there any type of fuel stations or edible food in that area? Medicine? Will I be able to replenish my supplies while I am there?

 

Considering all these questions (and probably more I have not thought of, such as "Is someone/something waiting for me back home? Can I leave them for any amount of time?) tell me Skirmisher, simply because I have the car, simply because I can get there, why should I?

 

Why shouldn't I simply hop over to the civilized city where my friends live, and where they've got air conditioning?

Yet these dangerous and arduous journeys that you seem to bring to mind would be completely and totally implausible if Hyperspace Travel was as fast as you say it is. If ships could cross the Galaxy in hours or days than what stops that person in the examples from just going out there in a few minutes, looking around and popping back before dinner? Seriously, at the speeds you take about it would be as if I had a personal supersonic jet. With it I could pop over to the Grand Canyon take some pictures and then be back by lunch, then after lunch go to the Great Wall of China and take pictures of that, arriving safely at home for dinner.

 

Besides with that speed, it would be extremely easy to just bypass known hostile alien worlds, so that really takes the danger out of exploring. As for out running them, well isn't the one thing about hyperspace that ships in it can't really do anything to eachother? So what if you run into hostiles, just turn around and put that Hyper Drive engine to use getting back to civilisation in minutes. Then mark that world as Bad, and skip over it on the next trip.

 

As for supplies, well, at the speeds you mentioned, you wouldn't need them! Sure maybe a Jerry can of petrol for the trip back, but since your only going to be gone for only a few hours on the other side of the Galaxy, you might just need to pack a lunch.

 

 

 

But wait... if it was that easy, why hasn't the Galaxy been explored in its entirety by the Reign of Palpatine? Why are there still vast unexplored reaches of space? One could only guess that it's because Hyperspace Travel IS NOT THAT FAST. That Trips through Hyperspace to these destinations actually do require the precise planning and the tremendous amounts of time and supplies that you have said. Because, only a slow trip that takes a long time would require lots of room for Food and Water and Air and Medicine, etc.. Only Slow Travel through hyperspace could allow for all of what you said in your example to actually be the truth of the situation.

 

Most of [The Unknown Region] is situated in the galactic halo, which has a lower density of stars than the main body. It also says that it comprises 15% of the galaxy's volume, not mass, star systems, planets or whatever, but simply it's volume. It's also partly situated in dense nebulae (in which, IIRC from Astronomy 1, planets cannot forum in nebulae, they form out of nebula as they collapse under gravity)

Don't forget the Globular Clusters that fill it up, the dense packets of Star Systems that are only found around the Core of Galaxies... So that would mean that: Do the abundance of GCs it would mean that the UR spans all the way from the Core or at least the periphery of the Core, all the way out the Galactic Halo at the very edge of the Galaxy. That's a lot of space to cover and only because the Star Wars Galaxy seems squashed to one side would I believe that this Big and Vast region of space was only to comprise 15%. Your forgetting that Nature likes balance, one side of the Galaxy cannot be filled with 300 billion stars and have the other side with only 100 billion, it would shake it self to pieces in a very short time span. The only way to counter this would be if both sides of the Galaxy were of equal weight.

 

 

So they take months in the Milky Way to get anywhere, and they take months in the Star Wars galaxy to get anywhere.

One side takes months, the other takes days.

You do not seriously see the crippling disadvantage this poses?

Crippling? Not when every instance of Combat sees the faster opponent crippled and further weakened. The IOM could just decide to use a scorched earth policy with the GE, completely annihilating, all worlds that are valuable except for a very few that they would keep and defend to provide for greater expansion of the Crusade.

 

Besides, like I said and still say, Hyper Space Travel is not that fast.

 

Actually, I still saw rivers. A Base Delta Zero wouldn't leave rivers. Small nitpick to be sure but still.

Also, what the hell was it shooting? Why did that giant 'explosion' pulse upwards, and then, only after all the shots were fired, explode all over the planet?

Strange, the only rivers that I saw were of the Rivers of Molten Mantle erupting through the completely fractured crust as the planet shattered and collapsed.

 

Why? Because at that point in time the Explosion had reached deep into the planet effectively holing it. After that the Explosions weren't impacting on any sort of Surface and were exploding INSIDE THE PLANETS CORE. This after only about 20 seconds.

[Skirmisher]

Battleship? What IoM battle ships are 8,000 to 10,000km across?

Send me a link to some page that claims that battleship shields cover that area.

No, Battleships are reported to be a about a dozen or more Kilometres in length, it's just that their Shield Bubbles extend out to that far, rather than hug the hulls of the ships like Star Wars.

 

 

 

No, I mean how many gigatons/teratons per second can it handle? Peak absorption rate, that sort of stuff.

Because hell, I can try to look up the stats for blasters, and ships using the old Star Wars RPG game systems if you really want? We could compare meaningless numbers with meaningless numbers.

Frankly I don't see the problem with using BFG stats for BFG fleets since they are the ONLY NUMBERS TO GO ON. Finally with the Fire Warrior scene we actually have CONTEXT for what those numbers actually mean. If the ONLY number you had for Blasters were from an RPG book then yes I would allow them and argue against them as if they were your word of god, but they aren't, you have films and novels and comics and cartoons and such to back you up. It's just like your Star Wars Canon ladder, my numbers are still good as they have not been disproven by a higher source.

 

As for all the technical stuff about shields, Based off of the amount of power shown and put into context against the ships stats. I would have to say that each point of Shield in BFG would be able to take around 750 Teratons per second second.

 

 

Also your stats on the Venator are abit wonkey, that ship could only put out 800 Teratons PER SECOND, not per shot. Which seems to match my figures perfectly, that one shield point in BFG is equal to the shields of an ISD.

 

 

Regional, oversectorial, and strategic command groups.

"Regional, oversectorial and strategic military commands existed as well, and came in a variety of mixed and homogenous forces."

 

Azure Hammer Command

 

Oversectors have their own fleets.

Yet Azure Hammer Command seemed to only be as strong as One Sector Group... and they also only oversaw One Sector...

 

First Death Star construction.

"The project was dragged out over a nineteen year time period as labor union disputes..."

Ok, who allowed the Slaves to form a Union? I bet Somebody got Choked to death over that mistake.

 

 

Except the conscripts on the IoM's side right? They are courageous and brave while the Empire's aren't?

Awe, the good old White Shields... Yes they run, they run like you couldn't believe, but that's why the Imperium has the Commissar. That and for some reason all humans seem to be completely awestruck in the presence of a Primarch or the Emperor Himself. People seem to have an automatic view him and his sons as Gods, and what greater moral boost is there than to fight and die selflessly in a holy war for these benevolent and fierce deities? I would expect that some of the Imperial Guards will break, but wait... They are used to so much more violence in their wars, conditions in the Star Wars Galaxy would seem like a walk in the park compared to fighting Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Tau, Dark Eldar, Chaos Deamons/Space Marines/Cultists and other such hellish horrors of the Old Galaxy. In fact, when word of the Safety of the new conflict zone (as well as the chance to fight along side their God) arrives back in the old galaxy, I would expect many hundreds of sextillions of Guardsmen to be signing up to be shipped through to the front.

[Skirmisher]

WEG

BlasTech DL-16b Blaster Pistol

Skill: Blaster

Ammo: 100

Cost: 450 (power packs: 25)

Fire Rate: 1

Range: 3-10/25/100

Damage: 4D

 

Look at that, it does the same amount of damage as a bolter.

Yet at least I explained how it the Bolter was considered Strength 4. That it fire in rapid succession .75 calibre Armour Piercing High Explosive Rounds, each designed to rip targets to shreds in seconds. And this is a Small Arms weapon. But If you want to use that Calculation then: That's what 4 dice to determine the damage, it uses D6's so that means that it's damage is 4-24 with an average of 14. Now I've looked thorough my SWRPG books and regular soldiers usually have about a dozen to two dozen HP plus Damage Reduction from their Armour. So that would mean on average that Blaster you posted there would only just barely kill a very lightly armoured soldier.

 

Or, you know:

A280 blaster rifle

"Though much heavier than Imperial-issue rifles such as the E-11, the A280 was a sturdy weapon and was reputed to be able to cut a fully-armored stormtrooper in half at medium range."

 

>Key Word: Reputed. I suppose that the reports might be true, but these would be unfounded. Besides, what setting was this rifle at, compared to other blaster rifles I would have to say it would have had to have been at Maximum, and would therefore drain ammo at a precipitous rate. And it would only give it the power to only match the Medium Setting on a Lasgun.<

 

Assault cannon

 

>"Blasts from this weapon were extremely lethal, capable of punching through body armor and killing soldiers in a single shot." So just like all the other Blasters in Star Wars. Guy in armour gets hit and falls over dead. But the Class of armour like Astartes wear has only been dreamt of in Star Wars. It is easily able to withstand Lasgun shots like they were just a flashlight. That's why whole regiments pale at the thought of ever having to face even ONE Astartes in combat.<

 

E-webs

 

>"it could take nearly fifteen minutes for the crew to deploy the weapon, calibrate the generator and configure the targeting software." [sarcasm]Wow that's Really Fast![/sarcasm] Unless they recharged it the Astartes would be on them and over them and through them before they could even think, besides it's not as if the Astartes havn't delt with fixed positions before, they excel at that kind of work. As well the maximum effective range is only 200 meters, easily taken out with a Krack Missile or a sniper rifle, or any other long range weapon in their arsenal<

 

Disruptors

 

>Yet these weapons require Many more times the amount of Blaster Gas than a standard Blaster, as well as being very short ranged and having only a very limited amount of "Clip" space. Besides, it's not as if the IOM hasn't faced such weapons before, take the Gauss Flayers of the Necrons for example (Picture provided below), far more deadly, and they too are only considered as powerful as a Bolter<

 

Thermal detonaros

"The result was an expanding particle field that could atomize any material that did not conduct heat or thermal energy within the fixed blast radius; typically five meters, though some had an even greater radius. Custom grenades could have a blast up to 100 meters."

 

>This is one thing I don't get about this description, Metal conducts heat and thermal energy, so that means that TDs don't even effect metal? Please come back with examples of how deadly they actually were, or you could use the standard issue Fragmentation Pattern that all Stormtroopers carried that works little better than today's Fragmentation grenades<

Mine in Bolded Olive

 

Standard Necron Small Arms

 

 

No, I meant that you made it sound like the GE wouldn't be able to keep production going because it would tax it's resource stores ( was using tax in the "drain" sense) while the IoM would have happy go lucky infinite resource cheats and would never have the same problem.

 

BTW, taxes exist in the Star Wars galaxy too, so I don't know where you get this idea that they would run out of resources so fast.

Here's the problem though, the GE is like a modern Government, if the people are taxed too much then they will grumble about it. Taxed a little too much and they'll complain. Taxed to the point that the GE will have to tax them to fight the IOM and they will just say "Screw You GE" and do something about it. Then you'd star to hear of things like the Bespine Blaster Gas Party?

 

The IOM doesn't work like that, it's almost like feudalism, where everyone pays as much as they can spare and even then some in some cases. They work their asses off to feed resources to the IOM and it's various militaries. Literally the IOM has

Tens of Billions of Star Systems dedicated to harvesting food for their Troops,

Tens of billions of Star Systems dedicated to mining ores and smelting them into metals,

Tens of billions of Star Systems dedicated to manufacturing the weapons and ammo and the machines of War, etc.

And even these systems still have to found and supply Regiments to the Imperial Guard.

 

Also, again, I just love the way you assume all the bad stuff will happen to the GE army:

"Oh, the conscripts will retreat, surrender or run away scared!"

"The GE won't be able to keep up with resources! They'll go bankrupt!"

"The GE's soldiers will be green!"

 

And yet you don't assume the same for the IoM's conscripted force? Double standard much?

Not really, I have made no illusion to the fact that Imperial Guards have rather weak moral when fighting alone against the horrors of the Milky Way. Their Conscripts sometimes fully route from just a few casualties, but like I said that's where the Commissars come in. They are the Moral Officers, it's their job to keep the green trooper in line, and when they break the Commissar will do anything to get them in line even if it means shooting some of the ones who are running. But the real thing is, is that it's all about the things these troopers on either side will have to face daily in this Crusade.

 

IG troops will have to deal with pretty little scorch marks on their dead, whilst the GE's troops will have to deal with whole chucks of bodies flying apart before the eyes of fellow troopers, people just disappearing under a hail of fire, and many, many more worse fates. To the GE army it would be like Hamburger Hill x10 every second of every day in every conflict zone.

 

While to the IOM's troops it would be more like... well, I can't think of a war that would be this easy going in comparison to the wars that the IOM usually faces.

 

Except that your previous statement about blaster gas gave no reasonable assumptions as to why blaster gas would be hard to come by.

Not everyone has a blaster =/= not enough blaster gas.

 

Poor places like Tatooine not being able to afford blaster gas does not mean "blaster gas is hard to find."

There it is! Supply and Demand. I'm saying that if Blaster Gas was so plentiful then everyone who owned a gun would have a Blaster. It would be easy to make a blaster, easy to power it, but the key component to them is the Gas, and for some reason that is Expensive.

 

If the Supply is High then the price drops and the people get what they need. If the Demand is high then the Price will rise until suppliers get competitive, and undercut the competition in a price war that will eventually bring the price of Gas to a minimum. But wait, that hasn't happened, so I guess the Supply isn't as great as you say.

[Skirmisher]

Correct, the A280s could cut men in half at 150 meters. They are manufactured by BlasTech Industries, one of the top three arms manufacturers in the galaxy. Tell me, what is your reasoning to suppose that the Empire can not buy these weapons for their troops?

Yes why don't they? That would AT LEAST bring them up to Imperial Guard Standards of Weaponry.

 

It went all the way down to the mantle? How are you sure about that?

 

 

 

Venator-class Star Destroyer

"As a true warship, the Venator-class Star Destroyer could divert almost all of its reactor output to its heavy turbolasers when needed."

 

Yes, Yes, ~800 Teratons, but your calcs have all the energy running only through ONE Heavy Turbo Laser turret, meaning only that one turret could shoot. A better example is the actually stated numbers of 800 Teratons per second, not per shot. The way you word it, is as if Every Turbo Laser on the entirety of that damned ship could put out that kind of power all at once. That would be Incorrect.

 

Munificent-class Star Frigate

"The twin turbolaser cannon was powerful enough to melt an ice moon measuring 1,000 km in diameter or pierce the shields of a 10 km-wide Grade III battle station."

 

Using this calculator and putting in the required number, the result under Melt and Ice is listed as 6.620E+7gigatons. That, after converting, is a hilarious 66.20 petatons. Of course, to be honest, this is only after a charge up time of 45 minutes using capacitors.

 

Also note that both of these ships are outdated by 20 years by the time of the Galactic Empire.

Wow that's kind of wrong.

 

Here I'll show you how it should have been done. Use an example of a Real Ice Moon.

As you can see the Ice is only about 15 to 30 Kilometers thick. Lets assume Max at Ice depth of 30 Kilometers. That would mean that that Ice Moon of 1000 Kilometers in Diameter had a total Volume of about 523,598,775 Kilometers cubed. Now Minus that against the Volume that is Below the Ice, which would be made of already liquid water or rock. At 30 Kilometers thick Ice this would come out to 434,892,765 Kilometers cubed. The difference between the two is Equal to the volume of Ice that would have been melted, which would be 88,706,009 Kilometers cubed.

For a Total Ice Melt Energy of only 11.2 Gigatons of force, and you said that it had to Charge up for 45 minutes to do this?

 

Plus, Battle Barges have the Nova Cannon which is 22 petatons, barely anything in SW can top that. Oh, I'm sorry, everything above a Cruiser has the Nova Cannon!

 

Almost right, but where did you get your numbers? Now I'm not too sure about them So I'll calc them. Since the Nova Cannon produces a Large Blast about 10,000 Kilometers in Diameter, putting it through the Nuke Calc we get about 3.5 Petatons for the kind of Power that ships would take damage from at Maximum Blast Range, as well as giving a Fireball that would be big enough to envelop whole ships and inflict large amounts of damage to them.

[Guest ricrery]

Some person supporting Warhammer 40k, he's actually very accurate. Here's some of the things he said:

 

"Mass can be derived by assuming the length is at least equal to the diameter, or (more probably) a multiple of the diameter (2-3x longer than the diameter, for example. A fifty meter diameter shell would be a hundred and fifty meters long). Going by a 50×150 meter shell made of Iron (assume 30% solid, its supposed to be packed with explosive of unknown type and density) fired at .9c yields a shell mass of around 770,000 tons and and a kinetic energy rating of 90,000,000,000 petajoules"

 

"This gives the blast of a Nova cannon (The most powerful ship mounted Imperial weapon) a yield of 22 petatons. For those of you struggling to comprehend these figures, this is a yield one million times greater than the heaviest ship mounted Imperial Turbolaser available to the Star Wars universe."

 

Proof enough?

[Skirmisher]

Some person supporting Warhammer 40k, he's actually very accurate. Here's some of the things he said:

 

"Mass can be derived by assuming the length is at least equal to the diameter, or (more probably) a multiple of the diameter (2-3x longer than the diameter, for example. A fifty meter diameter shell would be a hundred and fifty meters long). Going by a 50×150 meter shell made of Iron (assume 30% solid, its supposed to be packed with explosive of unknown type and density) fired at .9c yields a shell mass of around 770,000 tons and and a kinetic energy rating of 90,000,000,000 petajoules"

 

"This gives the blast of a Nova cannon (The most powerful ship mounted Imperial weapon) a yield of 22 petatons. For those of you struggling to comprehend these figures, this is a yield one million times greater than the heaviest ship mounted Imperial Turbolaser available to the Star Wars universe."

 

Proof enough?

Well, there you go! I was only going by a vague and indistinct explosive value. But to me that just looks like the Kenetic Impact value.

 

So I would think that these two numbers would add together, since the shell could hit with KE AND explode.

[Guest Ruinus]

Urgh, I won't be able to reply to this until Monday. Skirmisher, I sent you details as to why. The only thing I can do right now is a quick comment on the fact that even though the Clone Wars series isn't T-canon, it is still C-canon, and thus, still part of the Star Wars continuity. The only thing not part of canon is N-canon.

 

Also, why did you assume a 1,000 km ice moon (which would be made out of ice) would only have ice 30 km deep? Europa is a moon covered by ice, not made entirely out of ice. Had that been the case in the quote I posted, it would have said "It can melt off all the ice off of a moon" or something to that effect.

[Guest Ruinus]

Ok, went and found what you were talking about (~6:00). In it we see Han walk into the main hold from the Cockpit and says that they are going to arrive at Allderan at 0200. The Time from when they jumped to Hyperspace to then is not determined in any way, except that Luke has shown marked improvement in Lightsaber Deflection against the Training Remote. You would think that Obi Wan would have given him some training so that Luke wouldn't kill himself with a simple mistake. And time to at least get as good as he was shown to be. Even though he still wasn't that good, from what we see he is still better than what he would have been just starting out. This kind of stuff takes awhile, because it's not everyday you learn to block energy bolts with a thin shaft of light.

 

How can you make claims on "he is still better than what he would have been just starting out."? He blocks 3 out of 4 shots that the remote fires at him, both with and without the visor blocking his views. That's a 75% success rate based on a very small sampling. How do you know the success rate for people barely training in blaster deflection?

 

Marked improvement? This is the first time we see him even attempt blaster deflection, so how can you judge that he has marked improvement?

 

Either way, the point still stands. He says they will arrive by 0200, which still means they will arrive the same day. The specific amount of hours is irrelevant to our main discussion, which is that their FTL drives can allow for travel across their galaxy in less than a day.

 

That clip that you posted as proof that they went from Nelvaan to Courescant in a matter of hours is therfore in valid, as it does not fit into the Continuity of Star Wars.

 

Completely incorrect, as it would still fall under C-canon, hence, still part of the Star Wars continuity. Also, that Ashoka is not there for the last episode is irrelevant also, since we do not know her final fate, whether she lives/leaves/disappears/exiled or whatever. Since her final fate has not yet occured her absence in the final episode of the Clone Wars animated series doesn't contradict anything.

 

Also:

"N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm"

 

These are the only continuity issues that are outlined.

 

I know what I originally said. My original statements saying that they weren't mapped were meant in that they had no-one go out there and map them, not that they were in the charts and databases. I had then changed my statements to "Explored" rather than "Mapped" in a refinement of my original Idea.

 

"Explored" and "mapped" are vastly different things Skirmisher. If, since the beginning of our discussion you actually meant "Someone set foot on those planets, or actually entered our star system" then you should have picked better wording.

 

Plying space like the prospectors and adventurers of old, and that's just This generation of explorers, what about the Thousands of Generations that came before?

 

SNIP

 

"Galaxy upon galaxy. Vast, unexplored realms of space. It is a wild, untamed universe we live in. There is much danger here and therefore much need for armies, generals, and soldiers. But along with those who wage war there is also much need for those who explore new worlds and make possible the exchange of knowledge and goods... who bring civilization."

 

Do they all have the cash to buy mining equipment? The cash to buy fuel for the trips? Guards to guard those mining operations they are going to set up?

 

He's talking about the universe, hence "Galaxy upon galaxy" and "It is a wild, untamed universe we live in."

 

Besides, From what I can see of the Star Map, it's not as if that Whole Side of the Galaxy is devoid of any sort of place to explore. And as a rule of Nature all galaxies are somewhat uniformly spread out in mass, unless irregular (But then it wouldn't appear anything like the Star Wars galaxy). I would say that the Galaxy would have to be balanced and that there would probably be just as many stars out in the unknown region as that are on the other side of the galaxy. But let's compromise and say around 50-60 Billion Stars are out there in that area of Space.

 

So it may only cover 15% of the Volume of the Galaxy but inside of that Volume would be packed with Star systems.

 

I'm actually waiting on a map of from The Essential Atlas, which I'm told, shows a new and updated version of the UR, which I hear is about 1/4th of the galactic disk. (I have asked for a screen cap of this map, and have not received it yet. So, I won't count this as true until I see it, and you shouldn't either. I was just informing you that it may or not be true.)

 

Either way, looking at the Wookieepedia entry on the UR I came across this little tidbit.

"Although huge, this volume is emptier than the Galactic disk, since the combined total of the Unknown Regions contains no more than one percent of the galaxy's stars."

Galaxy Guide 8: Scouts p24; Tales of the Bounty Hunters p301.

 

Also, stars are actually usually more heavily concentrated along the spiral arms of a galaxy. Even cursory views of pictures of spiral galaxies should tell you that matter isn't uniformily distributed across it.

[Guest Ruinus]

Probably because of this?

One hypothesis by a noted scientist suggested that a mass of dark matter intersected the galaxy in this region, creating gravitational anomalies that hindered navigation. However, the lack of any tidal disruption of the galaxy's spiral form (as shown in Jedi Archives) may disprove this supposed dark mass. It is clear, moreover, that much of the Unknown Regions were passable to determined travelers—for instance, Corellian traders had been in contact with the Chiss for many years before their "discovery".

 

Also, you seem to be missing the point. From your comments that:

"if Hyper Space Travel is as fast as you say it is, then long ago the whole of the galaxy would have been thoroughly explored,"

It seems that you think that fast FTL is the only limiting factor in exploration of the galaxy. I agree that it is a part in it (some would say a great part) it is not the only factor.

 

I cut out your "I have supersonic jet" example.

 

Except that with your supersonic jet you would be watched by the US and Chinese (and all the nations inbetween) as you reached those speeds in an unregistered vehicle, probably violated some airspace, refused (or could not) reply to any demands you stop.

 

Besides with that speed, it would be extremely easy to just bypass known hostile alien worlds, so that really takes the danger out of exploring. As for out running them, well isn't the one thing about hyperspace that ships in it can't really do anything to eachother? So what if you run into hostiles, just turn around and put that Hyper Drive engine to use getting back to civilisation in minutes. Then mark that world as Bad, and skip over it on the next trip.

 

As for supplies, well, at the speeds you mentioned, you wouldn't need them! Sure maybe a Jerry can of petrol for the trip back, but since your only going to be gone for only a few hours on the other side of the Galaxy, you might just need to pack a lunch.

 

You make it sound as if it was that hilariously easy.

Sure, you can pass known hostile worlds, but what about unknown hostile worlds? Also, you wouldn't have to simply worry about planets, but star systems, or groups of them under the control of hostile civilizations.

 

As for your comment about outrunning a ship, yes and no. Ships in hyperspace can't do anything to each other, but they're ships can outrun you in realspace. They could disable your hyperdrive, board you, jam your transmissions all before you ever turn around for the FTL jump, knock your ship out with an ion blast. They can also track your FTL jump, follow you to the end, and catch you there. They could simply jump ahead of you and knock you out of hyperspace.

 

Also, even if you could, as you say, run away, turn around and go back, then you add more to your costs of fuel. FTL drives require fuel, which costs money.

 

But wait... if it was that easy, why hasn't the Galaxy been explored in its entirety by the Reign of Palpatine? Why are there still vast unexplored reaches of space? One could only guess that it's because Hyperspace Travel IS NOT THAT FAST. That Trips through Hyperspace to these destinations actually do require the precise planning and the tremendous amounts of time and supplies that you have said. Because, only a slow trip that takes a long time would require lots of room for Food and Water and Air and Medicine, etc.. Only Slow Travel through hyperspace could allow for all of what you said in your example to actually be the truth of the situation.

 

Nope. The thing is, it isn't that easy.

To use your example, yes, you have a supersonic jet plane (ever thought about how much that thing would cost simply to maintain?) but so does everyone else, including bad people. Hell, in Star Wars pirates plague the fully policed areas of the galaxy (the areas that directly follow the laws/have the backing of the GR, GE, NR etc). Since even travel in areas such as those poses the risk of pirates, why go into an area of space where the police might not even be on your side, or care if you get attacked by criminals? Why go into an area that might be entirely controled by criminals?

 

Hyperdrive travel is that fast (a fact which, for some reason, has eluded you throughout all 6 movies, and abundance of books, comics and cartoons that have appeared over the years) but hyperdrive travel into unknown, (possibly) politicaly unstable regions of space isn't that easy or safe.

 

Do the abundance of GCs it would mean that the UR spans all the way from the Core or at least the periphery of the Core, all the way out the Galactic Halo at the very edge of the Galaxy.

 

What? The UR spans from outside the Outer Rim, it in no way, in any literature does it ever reach into the Core Worlds, or even the Mid Rim.

 

Also, see the above reference to the stars only comprimising about 1% of the galaxy.

 

Crippling? Not when every instance of Combat sees the faster opponent crippled and further weakened. The IOM could just decide to use a scorched earth policy with the GE, completely annihilating, all worlds that are valuable except for a very few that they would keep and defend to provide for greater expansion of the Crusade.

 

So the IoM, which moves slower than the GE, would purposefully destroy it's own planets, and you still think it would win?

So, what planets does it burn? Factory worlds? Farm worlds? What does it do when some planets start starving out under blockades?

 

Besides, like I said and still say, Hyper Space Travel is not that fast.

 

And you are wrong.

 

I won't be able to reply to your other comments, but feel free to reply to these.

[Guest boston_celtics]

!!!SHORTER POSTS PLEASE!!!

[Guest Ruinus]

No, Battleships are reported to be a about a dozen or more Kilometres in length, it's just that their Shield Bubbles extend out to that far, rather than hug the hulls of the ships like Star Wars.

 

Are you sure? That sounds VERY odd, so I would like to ask for a source on this.

 

Frankly I don't see the problem with using BFG stats for BFG fleets since they are the ONLY NUMBERS TO GO ON. Finally with the Fire Warrior scene we actually have CONTEXT for what those numbers actually mean. If the ONLY number you had for Blasters were from an RPG book then yes I would allow them and argue against them as if they were your word of god, but they aren't, you have films and novels and comics and cartoons and such to back you up. It's just like your Star Wars Canon ladder, my numbers are still good as they have not been disproven by a higher source.

 

As for all the technical stuff about shields, Based off of the amount of power shown and put into context against the ships stats. I would have to say that each point of Shield in BFG would be able to take around 750 Teratons per second second.

 

Because the game mechanics are just that, game mechanics. In the novels you have very different things going on, with space marines dying in one hit, being ripped apart, IG soldiers taking on bigger enemies than they ever could in the games, etc etc.

 

Using your game mechanics to calc idea, then the Venator at full firepower can take out a shield and have 50-110 teratons left over to hit the ship.

 

Yet Azure Hammer Command seemed to only be as strong as One Sector Group... and they also only oversaw One Sector...

 

What?

Sector Fleet

"A standard Sector Group was composed of 24 Imperial-class star destroyers."

 

Azure Hammer Command

"At its height, this mighty fleet consisted of the Super Star Destroyer Whelm and 57 other capital ships."

 

You should have also clicked the Sector Zero link instead of simply skimming it's name.

"Imperial Center Oversector, also known as Oversector Zero, was an Imperial Oversector."

 

Ok, who allowed the Slaves to form a Union? I bet Somebody got Choked to death over that mistake.

 

The Death Stars required private shipping companies to bring in the materials, those are who I assume the "labor union disputes" refer to.

 

In fact, when word of the Safety of the new conflict zone (as well as the chance to fight along side their God) arrives back in the old galaxy, I would expect many hundreds of sextillions of Guardsmen to be signing up to be shipped through to the front.

 

And how long would this news take to travel? It would still take months to reach the entirity of the IoM, and then months for them to even reach the SW galaxy and get anywhere important there.

[Guest Ruinus]

Game mechanics

I posted that as a joke.

 

Key Word: Reputed. I suppose that the reports might be true, but these would be unfounded. Besides, what setting was this rifle at, compared to other blaster rifles I would have to say it would have had to have been at Maximum, and would therefore drain ammo at a precipitous rate. And it would only give it the power to only match the Medium Setting on a Lasgun.

 

Astartes

Astartes

 

This is one thing I don't get about this description, Metal conducts heat and thermal energy, so that means that TDs don't even effect metal? Please come back with examples of how deadly they actually were, or you could use the standard issue Fragmentation Pattern that all Stormtroopers carried that works little better than today's Fragmentation grenades

 

It doesn't say what setting the A280 is required to slice apart men (why would it be reputed to be able to if any soldiers could easily check?)

 

Why do you assume the Astartes are going to be everyone? They are outnumbered by the IG (who would be likely to be doing the greatest amount of fighting).

 

Stomrtroopers aren't immediately killed by shots:

Coruscant Nights II page 34

"He squeezed off a blast of his own, and one of the troopers was hurled back. His armour protected him from anything except a point-blank hit at maximum power, but th eimpact would leave him stunned for a time."

 

Class-A thermal detonaro

A single Class-A thermal detonator was sufficient to cause the collapse of Xizor's Palace, a huge 102-story building on Coruscant, when Lando Calrissian dropped it down the palace's garbage chute into its basement level.

 

So yeah, they destroy metals too. I'm guessing the Wookieepedia article had some bad wording? (Maybe " any material that did not easily/readily conduct heat or thermal energy")

 

Here's the problem though, the GE is like a modern Government, if the people are taxed too much then they will grumble about it. Taxed a little too much and they'll complain. Taxed to the point that the GE will have to tax them to fight the IOM and they will just say "Screw You GE" and do something about it. Then you'd star to hear of things like the Bespine Blaster Gas Party?

 

Except that the GE is a dictatorship, (A fact established in the very first movie when the Death Star destroys Alderaan because Grand Moff Tarkin felt like it) and when people protest anything they get jailed, shot, tortured or have capital ships land on them Hell, the Empire began with the sistematic genocide of the Jedi Order. In Shadows Of The Empire page 167 we have Gholondreine-β who didn't like some of the changes the GE was making.

 

"The oceans of Gholondreine-b had been sucked down to the last molecule of saline liquid, then transported by a fleet of massive Imperial freighters to an orbital catalysis plant near Coruscant. Economy hadn't been the motivating factor- it was more expensive to ship that amount of water than to synthesize it- but punishment had been."

 

Seriously Skirmisher, you sound like you don't even know what the Galactic Empire is.

 

Prove those numbers of planets.

 

While to the IOM's troops it would be more like... well, I can't think of a war that would be this easy going in comparison to the wars that the IOM usually faces.

 

Seriously Skirmisher, you keep ignoring the fact that the IoM takes months to get anywhere. They won't be able to even leave their home galaxy before the GE forces start attacking them on their ground, draining their resources while the GE has months in advance to replace loses, build up ships, train men and assemble battle droids.

 

How is the war going to be easy for them if they have to stay on the defensive against ships that can slip past their defenses and hit bases on the other side of their territory before they can even respond?

 

 

There it is! Supply and Demand. I'm saying that if Blaster Gas was so plentiful then everyone who owned a gun would have a Blaster. It would be easy to make a blaster, easy to power it, but the key component to them is the Gas, and for some reason that is Expensive.

 

But wait, that hasn't happened, so I guess the Supply isn't as great as you say.

 

Blasters.

"The most commonly used weapon in the galaxy..."

"Some have used blasters ever since their youth"

"The most common personal weapon in the galaxy by the rise of the Empire, blasters were often used not only by military personnel, but by civilians as protection."

 

Slugthrowers were considered by many to be a primitive, inferior technology when compared to blasters, and were often used by those without access to better weapons, such as primitive cultures.

 

Skirmisher, you are arguing that a type of weaon that has been in use for 35,000 years (and probably more) and is soo common that the only people who can't use them are civilizations who can't even build blasters, uses rare, hard to find ammunition, and that the supply of the gas used to make blasters work will be exhausted in one war?

 

*vulgarity* it.

Prove the gas is expensive. Show quotes.

Show the amount of people who own something besides a blaster, and show how significant a portion of the galaxy they are.

[Guest Ruinus]

Yes why don't they? That would AT LEAST bring them up to Imperial Guard Standards of Weaponry.

 

Because the GE got along fine fielding less powerful weaponry, as they had no one to fight on an equal footing with.

 

 

Ok, point taken. A bit iffy to me, but I'll accept it.

 

Yes, Yes, ~800 Teratons, but your calcs have all the energy running only through ONE Heavy Turbo Laser turret, meaning only that one turret could shoot. A better example is the actually stated numbers of 800 Teratons per second, not per shot. The way you word it, is as if Every Turbo Laser on the entirety of that damned ship could put out that kind of power all at once. That would be Incorrect.

 

Yes, the firepower would be routed through the main heavy turrets that usually flank the superstructure on a star destroyer. The firepower can be routed through one gun for 800 TT per second, or split apart through all the guns (for instance, 2 guns with 400 TTs per second each). Nowhere in the quote does it say the firepower is being routed through one and one gun only, it simply says that it can divert that much energy to it's guns.

 

Wow that's kind of wrong.

 

It's called an ice moon. I'm going on "It's made entirely out of ice." not "Yeah, it's only covered 30 km in ice."

[Guest Ruinus]

!!!SHORTER POSTS PLEASE!!!

 

I was hoping to do that when I first posted the Wookieepedia quote on the speeds of hyperdrive, but even that got drawn out into a long debate.

Believe me, even I get tired of looking up Wookieepedia for an hour to look up stuff, if this could be solved fast and easily then it would.

[Guest ricrery]

Well, with this "it takes months to get anywhere for the IoM crap, I think I'll bring up the "the GE needs a map to go anywhere deal". Besides, Warp space has probably reached the SW galaxy by now. Suggesting the IoM get a big big big advantage before their disadvantage.

[Guest Ruinus]

Well, with this "it takes months to get anywhere for the IoM crap, I think I'll bring up the "the GE needs a map to go anywhere deal". Besides, Warp space has probably reached the SW galaxy by now. Suggesting the IoM get a big big big advantage before their disadvantage.

 

It takes months for the IoM to get anywhere even within WH40K itself, a fact that Skirmisher established himself when he posted the Warp travel times and speeds. Either way, the GE can just spam probe droids till it's hearts content, it will take a while, but not as much as the IoM will.

 

This is your set up, and ultimately the conditions are all up to you, but why should the IoM get a "big big big advantage"?

[Guest ricrery]

Okay, let's see... there's a giant Hivefleet blocking said galaxy, me thinks the probes will take a while to get around it. Plus, all of those Imperial defenses that notice it will blow it into a million pieces, hell Han Solo easily destroyed one. Me thinks they won't get a good map. There's also the "they don't know what planets are important part" that I'll leave out, just because that would ruined the debate.

[Skirmisher]

Ruinus said:

How can you make claims on "he is still better than what he would have been just starting out."? He blocks 3 out of 4 shots that the remote fires at him, both with and without the visor blocking his views. That's a 75% success rate based on a very small sampling. How do you know the success rate for people barely training in blaster deflection?

 

Marked improvement? This is the first time we see him even attempt blaster deflection, so how can you judge that he has marked improvement?

 

Either way, the point still stands. He says they will arrive by 0200, which still means they will arrive the same day. The specific amount of hours is irrelevant to our main discussion, which is that their FTL drives can allow for travel across their galaxy in less than a day.

Yet, there is still no conclusive proof that they arrived in under a days worth of travel. There are many points to prove that it did take far longer than you seem to think though, and only one point to vaguely prove otherwise, that I can also disprove.

 

1) When we see Luke training with the remote, he blocks about three of the four shots that we see on film, before he puts the helmet on. However there is about a minute stretch were we do not see Luke and the remote, but can still just barely hear the hum of his lightsaber occasionally. At no time during his off camera training did we hear him yelp in pain from a failed parry, and while the lightsaber and the blasts deflected might not have been heard, you can bet that him yelling in pain would have been. Then there would be the fact that Han would have pointed and laughed at Luke had he missed a couple. Meaning that there is a vague possibility that Luke's average is significantly higher than just 75%.

 

2) A lightsaber is an extremely dangerous weapon, able to cleave limbs off with just the flick of a wrist. You would think that like the Samurai who train extensively with bokken before ever wielding a Katana, Obi wan would have at least taught Luke how not to kill himself or anyone nearby before continuing his training. This alone would have required time, and only after that could he train with a remote.

 

3) Lets run an experiment... grab a broomstick about 115 to 130 cm in length. Tape the "hilt" of the broomestick to give you grip but make sure that you have about a 100cm "blade". Now grab a bucket of golf balls, and get someone to throw them at you (try for softball speeds) while you try and deflect them with your improvised "lightsaber".

Note: your going to want safety equipment for this, so that you don't get hit in the face or any other vital area with these balls...

Only then can you tell me how many hours or even Days it would take to get to an average of a 75% deflection rate.

 

4) As you should know, Hyperspace travel isn't just one jump from point A to point B. Since ships can only travel in a straight line through Hyperspace they must come out to adjust their course and navigate around stellar obstacles. Based on the usual maps this would have taken the Falcon a bare Minimum of three jumps to get to Alderran. At least one to get from Tattoine to the shipping lane, the shipping lane itself and then assuming that the shipping lane doesn't have various stops, one more to Alderran. However this could have easily taken many more jumps. So by "0200" that could mean that, yes that last leg of the trip was inside of a day, but that was just the small last leg to go from the shipping lane to Alderran.

 

 

compromise

Here, I'll compromise and say that the trip took about 2 to 3 days (avg: 2.5 days). Various maps that actually give measurable distances have given me about ~42,000 light years between Tatooine and Alderaan, and this can be confirmed to be in the ballpark with trigonometry using the two planets canon distance to the core and the average angle given in official maps. So that would put the Falcon at 16,800 Light years per day. However going by the Canon "drive rating", the Falcon with it's 0.5 would be four times faster than ISDs and SSDs that have a rating of 2. Meaning that these Imperial warships would only go at about 4200 light years per day, which is only 12 times faster than IOM Warships.

 

 

Ruinus said:

Completely incorrect, as it would still fall under C-canon, hence, still part of the Star Wars continuity. Also, that Ashoka is not there for the last episode is irrelevant also, since we do not know her final fate, whether she lives/leaves/disappears/exiled or whatever. Since her final fate has not yet occured her absence in the final episode of the Clone Wars animated series doesn't contradict anything.

 

Also:

"N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm"

Yet that is the eventual fate of at least the last season of the original Clone Wars series where you got your scene. Besides the majority of the canon problems it has come from those final episodes of the series. Also, note that Anaken was present at the battle of Belderone that happened shortly before the battle of Courescant, this from the Prelude Book to Ep3 "Labyrinth of Evil" which would undoubtedly hold a higher canon slot than the questionable Clone Wars cartoon. This would mean that with the information they gathered from the separatists about the location of Darth Sidius being on Corescant, both Anakin and Obi Wan would have traveled back to Corescant at best speed, while Sidius plotted the Battle of Corescant to cover himself from this leaked information. This would effectively render your scene from Clone Wars as N Canon while maintaining my observation that Star Wars hyperspace travel is not as fast as you claim.

 

 

Ruinus said:

So the IoM, which moves slower than the GE, would purposefully destroy it's own planets, and you still think it would win?

So, what planets does it burn? Factory worlds? Farm worlds? What does it do when some planets start starving out under blockades?

No, I mean that once the IOM reaches GE space they Exterminatus worlds that they do not need to further their Crusade, thereby depleting the GE of it's mineral and economic wealth as well as it's means of food production. To do this they would need to build up a massive Crusade fleet separate of the home defense fleet numbering in the hundreds of millions of Warships and founding about 400,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 new regiments of Imperial Guard. Estimated time would be around a decade two at the most (Actually one of my points below gets them a a new full crusade fleet in less than a year), and yes I know that the Galactic Empire would be sending wave after wave of fleets and troops at the IOM.

 

They face a couple of problems, they would first have to map the Milky Way, hard to do when your droids have no way of communicating back the co-ordinates of the vary rare successful jumps. The GE would probably loose tens of billions of these specialized and costly probe droids for every 5,000 light years mapped into the Galaxy. Then once they've actually found an Imperial world, (let say one that the Imperium actually cares about) they would have to face it's Planetary defenders AND whatever detachment of the Imperial Sector Fleet that would be stationed above the planet at any given time. IOM Sector Fleets consist of 50 to 75 large capitol ships of Cruiser to Battleship weights, with approximately 30 to 50 squadrons (~3 ships/squad) of escort class and light cruiser types, with many thousands of smaller vessels (ie Fighters/shuttles/etc.). Source

 

So let's say that One Full GE sector group (1 SSD, 24 ISD, 3000-4000 smaller craft (Mostly composed of fighter craft/shuttles/gunboats)) managed to beat a path up to this world. They would find their a** getting hammered in a very one sided way. They would face a couple defence stations capable of repelling multiple ISDs, as well as a few Dozen warships easily comparable to an ISD. Those would only be the systems ships and the fleet detachments Escort vessels, there are then the Cruisers, (lets say 2) that could easily hold off the SSD long enough for additional fleet assets to show up in system. Oh, I forgot about those ~3500 smaller fighter craft, well IOM point defense turrets could easily handle them, or let them through since they wouldn't be able to do anything.

[Skirmisher]

"No, Battleships are reported to be a about a dozen or more Kilometres in length, it's just that their Shield Bubbles extend out to that far, rather than hug the hulls of the ships like Star Wars."

Ruinus said:

Are you sure? That sounds VERY odd, so I would like to ask for a source on this.

Years ago I could name you some sources... but I don't have the books and apparently the Internet has been scrubbed of all reference to them. So the only thing I have to go on is that in BFG the little bases of the ships represent the shields, or at least the area that would be dangerous to the shields/ship if hit. Weak, I know... Also "consensus" on IOM ship lengths actually has the Battleship class at around 8km in length, except special Command ships which could easily get up to the number of Km that I said, which is why I got the number confused.

 

 

Ruinus said:

Because the game mechanics are just that, game mechanics. In the novels you have very different things going on, with space marines dying in one hit, being ripped apart, IG soldiers taking on bigger enemies than they ever could in the games, etc etc.

Actually unless it's from something very deadly, Space Marines usually don't go down that fast. Authors that are new to the fiction often get loads of criticism for making Space Marines drop like mooks. They usually then actually do some research and in later works correct their mistakes. Take for instance Dan Abnett, one very early story had Gaunt and his regiment fight various chaos cultists lead by a couple Iron Warrior Chaos Space Marines. He dropped them like mooks to some sustained heavy fire. He received criticism from fans and GW alike and the next time a Chaos Space Marine loomed it's head it took much more to put it down. Still the criticism came in and the latest Chaos Marines to show their ugly heads in his books took very Desperate and Heroic actions to take them out. IIRC it took a bundle of 5 to 12 Demo Charges to kill one Marine, and Demo Charges are designed to take out Tanks and other hardened targets. Another one was KIA after getting hit with a close range headshot from a lasgun using a "Hotshot" power clip which basically pumps all 60+ shots into just one, meaning based on average weapons calcs, it puts that single shot at around several hundred Megajoules straight to the guys face.

 

The point is that Game Mechanics are overridden in 40K table top because at least that has books and stories. There is no such thing for Battle Fleet Gothic, at least not on the level that you can get actual numbers from. So the higher Canon would be based around the Game Mechanics.

 

 

Ruinus said:

And how long would this news take to travel? It would still take months to reach the entirity of the IoM, and then months for them to even reach the SW galaxy and get anywhere important there.

Telepathic Communication travels at around 10x the speed of Warp Travel from the sources I've found. However I cannot re-find those sources, so you don't have to take that x10. ButI can tell you that it is many times faster than actual ship travel, confirmed in any material regarding it. So news would only take a couple of months at the most to reach every ears in the IOM.

 

 

Ruinus said:

It doesn't say what setting the A280 is required to slice apart men (why would it be reputed to be able to if any soldiers could easily check?)

 

Why do you assume the Astartes are going to be everyone? They are outnumbered by the IG (who would be likely to be doing the greatest amount of fighting).

1) A280's, congratulations you now have the calibre of weapon that comes Standard to all Guardsmen. Happy Hunting with them Flashlights!

2) Guardsmen during the Great Crusade with the Emperor did just that, they Guarded. That's what their purpose was, and they could do it because when the Emperor was around and when the other Legions were loyal they had enough Space Marines to do all the Attacking jobs. The Guard was the Shield of the Imperium and the Astrates the Sword.

3) I've almost forgot about the Legios Titanicus, most Space Marine planetary assaults are accompanied by (as the name implies) legions of Titans. These God-Machines would easily lay waste to however many troops the GE decided to pump out in defence of its planets. But the Titans aren't just relegated to attack, many imperial worlds have at least One of the smaller 40 story tall models. In fact there were Titans active in the poorer sectors of the Galaxy on planets at the far reaches of the Imperium. The GEs only equivalent would be an AT-AT, and even a small Titan would easily overpower one of those. Also did I forget, all models have some strength of Void Shield, giving them far more battlefield longevity than anything in the GEs arsenal.

[Skirmisher]

Ruinus said:

Prove those numbers of planets.

As shown by the Segmentiums of the Imperium the IOM stretches over 80% of the Galaxy.

The Milky Way has 200 to 400 (Avg: 300B) billion stars, current estimates place that about 40% to 60% (avg: 50%) of stars can develop some type of terrestrial planet. We can stop there because the IOM can put people just about anywhere they want, they have the Tech to do it, and that would give a number of 127.5 billion worlds under the Imperium. But let's still go further with planets that could presumably support life, atmosphere, magnetosphere, etceterasphere. Current theories predict that 0.5% or more of these planets would have these conditions, meaning that 637 million planets in the IOM could support life. That's a very bare minimum considering that it implies Only one planet per star system and that there are no moons or asteroid belts. Meaning that the number of planets that the IOM controls would be much greater. Factoring in a combination of lifeless planets farmed for minerals and life sustaining planets farmed for men and food, the numbers that I gave are entirely reasonable.

 

 

Ruinus said:

Seriously Skirmisher, you keep ignoring the fact that the IoM takes months to get anywhere. They won't be able to even leave their home galaxy before the GE forces start attacking them on their ground, draining their resources while the GE has months in advance to replace loses, build up ships, train men and assemble battle droids.

 

How is the war going to be easy for them if they have to stay on the defensive against ships that can slip past their defenses and hit bases on the other side of their territory before they can even respond?

Actually the Resources drain would be in the opposite direction. If the GE attacked the IOM on their own turf, then the GE would have to spend the fuel and energy cost of waging a war into a galaxy that they know nothing about that is filled with extremely hostile peoples and creatures. Once they managed to find prime IOM targets they would then have to actually manage to permanently kill the IOMs warships, which is not an easy task, as even long dead space hulks can be refitted and ready for action in a couple months. And SW ships just don't have the firepower to even cripple the larger warships of the IOM unless they commit a large percentage of Fleet resources to fighting one.

 

Even then guess what, the raw materials that the GE doesn't limp home with would remain in IOM territory. Now how many expeditions could the GE launch if each time they sent ships in, barely any came back? Meanwhile the IOM would have all these extra ship carcasses littering its sectors, each one could be dragged back to an IOM shipyard and refitted with IOM technology providing the IOM with yet more ships. And then there's another advantage, the set-up has the Emperor of Mankind alive and well with all his sons. That would mean the IOM isn't as afraid of everything as it is in the current game timeline. The Emperor himself with an army of scientists would probably inspect every inch of every dead GE ship. Then he would determine that the Hyperdrive was without Chaos Taint and proclaim that every ship in the Imperium be fitted with one at soonest convenience. Gradually the Warp Drive would be phased out and the Hyperdrive would become the new mode of travel for the IOM's warships. Fully evening out the playing field. And yes the Emperor would do that, before Horus interrupted him he was attempting to build an Imperial Webway gate akin to the Eldar. The Webway being many times faster and many times safer than the Warp. He would say the word and all IOM ships would have working hyperdrives inside of a year, because the Emperors word is Law.

 

 

Ruinus said:

It's called an ice moon. I'm going on "It's made entirely out of ice." not "Yeah, it's only covered 30 km in ice."

Yet all evidence of actual Ice Moons show that they are actual Moons that are covered in Ice and water. If it were called a large moon shaped chunk/ball of ice then I would say that "Yes, that is completely made of ice." But that is not the case. Your quote says "Ice Moon" meaning of a similar type to that of other Ice Moons, an example of which we have in our vary solar system: Europa the Ice Moon of Jupiter! Which has an Ice depth of 15-30km, a liquid ocean underneath and a rocky surface below that. Your quote went on to say that it only Melted it, not boiled it away to nothingness, meaning that that ship would have only melted the Ice and stopped when it hit the liquid water beneath, never touching the rock surface below the water.

[Guest Ruinus]

Okay, let's see... there's a giant Hivefleet blocking said galaxy, me thinks the probes will take a while to get around it. Plus, all of those Imperial defenses that notice it will blow it into a million pieces, hell Han Solo easily destroyed one. Me thinks they won't get a good map. There's also the "they don't know what planets are important part" that I'll leave out, just because that would ruined the debate.

 

The Tyranids were at the galaxy before the Horus Heresy? Show me some proof, as it was my understanding that they only recently showed up.

 

Han Solo didn't destroy the probe droid, it self destructed.

[Guest Ruinus]

By ruinus at 2009-09-03

 

Nonsense, the hum of the lightsaber is all that we hear. At no point is the sound of the remote firing or the sound of a bolt being deflected hear. Hence Luke and the remote were doing nothing. (In fact, you cannot hear the sound of the remote moving about either. Perhaps he was simply practicing parry positions?)

 

Either way, we hear nothing except the lightsaber hum.

 

Obi wan would have at least taught Luke how not to kill himself or anyone nearby before continuing his training. This alone would have required time, and only after that could he train with a remote.

 

Only then can you tell me how many hours or even Days it would take to get to an average of a 75% deflection rate.

 

Or Luke is a fast learner, unless you also think Obi-wan taught Luke how to trust the Force at the precise moment needed to launch a missile down a 5 meter wide exhaust shaft. He didn't, all he did was say "Use the Force" and "Remember, a Jedi feels the Forces working through him."

 

Your 4th assumption is made irrelevant by the map above. Provided by the Behind the Magic hyperdrive charts.

 

Here, I'll compromise and say that the trip took about 2 to 3 days (avg: 2.5 days)

 

No comprimise is needed. The trip took 7 hours.

 

Also, I found this during my lookings for more examples to cement the idea of pangalactic travel in a few hours. I'll try to cut it down:

 

Queen's ship lands on Tatooine in the early morning.

Qui-gon and co meet Anakin, sandstorm begins, Anakin invites them into their home.

Queen's ship receives transmission from Naboo asking for help. Obi-wan warns her not to respond, since it is clearly a trap. The Queen obviously doesn't listen and responds, thus giving Palpatine and Maul a trace on her location.

Anakin and co have lunch. He tells them he can win them new parts at the podrace tomorrow.

Darth Maul leaves for Tatooine.

Nightime, whole "No Jedi has over 20,000 midichlorians" scene.

 

Next day:

 

Darth Maul lands near dawn/dusk/early morning.

Anakin wins pod-race, he earns his freedom and leaves.

They are attacked by Darth Maul.

 

The entire trip, from lunch to dusk, takes half a day. The Scimitar has a 1.5 class hyperdrive rating, meaning that it is slower than the Millenium Falcon. This makes sense with the BTM chart, where the Millenium Falcon took 7 hours, the Scimitar took 12.

 

Also, note that Anaken was present at the battle of Belderone that happened shortly before the battle of Courescant, this from the Prelude Book to Ep3 “Labyrinth of Evil” which would undoubtedly hold a higher canon slot than the questionable Clone Wars cartoon.

 

Battle of Belderone

 

Followed by:

Siege of Saleucami

Battle of Felucia

Battle of Ywllandr

Battle of Mygeeto

Battle of unidentified planet (enslaved species)

Battle of Orto

Battle of Purple Planet

Battle of unidentified planet (clones surrender)

Battle of Bal'demnic

Second Battle of Tythe

Battle of Murkhana

Battle of Nevlaan

Battle of Coruscant

 

That's what the listing on Wookieepedia says, and Leeland Chee agrees with this listing, here.

 

However, reading up on the events of Labyrinth of Evil, and the overviews of the battles themselves, it seems that the New Essential Chronology and Labyrinth of Evil both support the view that Anakin and Obi-wan both visisted Nelvaan before Tythe.

 

This, however, is still not a problem. Both Nevlaan and Nevlaan are close to each other, and both land near Tatooine, as seen on this map.

 

So either way, the difference is small, and aboard the Integrity Anakin and Obi-wan leave Tythe and head for the Battle of Coruscant. which, by most accounts lasts a "long, long day."

 

The battle also seems to have started during the day time and equally ended during the daytime (the point in the movie where the Invisible Hand crashes unto Coruscant.

 

No, I mean that once the IOM reaches GE space...

 

Estimated time would be around a decade two at the most...

 

This would never happen then. While the IoM is taking a decade to do all this, the GE has already built up billions of ships (should I post the ship construction calc?), reached the Milky Way galaxy, mapped it, and began attacking. The IoM then has to shift to defensive measures while the GE continous to churn out ships and attack.

 

That is why I think you are not understanding why the FTL on the GE side makes this a win for them. While the GE can reach the Milky Way galaxy in a what, 2-3 days? (probably faster, considering the SW galaxy is 20,000 light years wider than ours) while the IoM takes months. This means that the GE can attack first, establish bases in the MW first, have more prep time to gether information, get star maps, and plan attacks.

 

This also means that the GE can send back communications to the SW galaxy faster, ordering more equipment, ships, men, whatever.

 

This ALSO means that they can pick undefended worlds to attack, and then leave before any form of retalation arrives.

 

Simply put, your plans for the IoM attacking and burning SW worlds never happens, because they don't have the time to be able to reach the SW galaxy.

[Guest Ruinus]

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They face a couple of problems, they would first have to map the Milky Way, hard to do when your droids have no way of communicating back the co-ordinates of the vary rare successful jumps.

 

The GE would probably loose tens of billions of these specialized and costly probe droids for every 5,000 light years mapped into the Galaxy

 

Hyperwave

Hypercomm

 

Why would the jumps be rarely successfull? Simply scan out to maximum range, jump ahead, scan and repeat.

 

Prove these are costly and specialized. The probe droid page mentions nothing of the sort.

I want sources, I want quotes.

 

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Then once they've actually found an Imperial world, (let say one that the Imperium actually cares about) they would have to face it's Planetary defenders AND whatever detachment of the Imperial Sector Fleet that would be stationed above the planet at any given time. IOM

 

Read your own link. It says:

"Because of the vast space that requires policing, the Battlefleet is normally split into detachments consisting of one or two cruisers, accompanied by a squadron of escorts."

 

So it's not like the faster GE ships (you know, the ones with more time to prepare) will blunder into an entire fleet.

 

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So let's say that One Full GE sector group (1 SSD, 24 ISD, 3000-4000 smaller craft (Mostly composed of fighter craft/shuttles/gunboats))

 

Don't mince words, the quote said:

"The RotJ novel states that the Empire is made up thousands of sectors. ? From the same G canon novel a typical sector group is 1 SSD (Com ship 6Km) and 24 ISD plus thousands of lesser war ships. "

 

Warships do not include starfighters/shuttles or gunboats.

 

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They would face a couple defence stations capable of repelling multiple ISDs, as well as a few Dozen warships easily comparable to an ISD.

 

While the first section has yet to be proven, I accept the second part, as most of the fan calcs that I've seen put IoM and the GE warships on par with each other. Generally, I've heard it described as "Pound for pound, GE ships are stronger, it's simply that IoM ships are usually much bigger than GE ships."

 

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Those would only be the systems ships and the fleet detachments Escort vessels, there are then the Cruisers, (lets say 2) that could easily hold off the SSD long enough for additional fleet assets to show up in system. Oh, I forgot about those ~3500 smaller fighter craft, well IOM point defense turrets could easily handle them, or let them through since they wouldn't be able to do anything.

 

Your reasoning for cruisers being this strong?

 

Seriously Skirmisher, what's up with the great amounts of unsources uncalced claims you are making? I know WH40K is a ridiculous over the top series, but that doesn't mean "WH40K is stronger ALWAYS!" claims can go unsourced.

 

There it is again, your lack of tacking into account that the GE ships can simply arrive, blast the planet and then leave before any sort of reinforcements arrive.

 

How can the IoM ever attack the GE fleets, if the IoM can never catch up to them?

[Guest Ruinus]

Skirmisher said:

Years ago I could name you some sources... but I don't have the books and apparently the Internet has been scrubbed of all reference to them. So the only thing I have to go on is that in BFG the little bases of the ships represent the shields, or at least the area that would be dangerous to the shields/ship if hit. Weak, I know... Also "consensus" on IOM ship lengths actually has the Battleship class at around 8km in length, except special Command ships which could easily get up to the number of Km that I said, which is why I got the number confused.

 

I'm not buying it.

I've read some books of WH40K and never are shields mentioned to extand that far from normal ships. Even if what you say was true, since you can't find any sources to back it up, I will not accept it.

 

Hell, I've even tried finding some sources for you, and cannot find them. The Lexicanum site and the WH40K wiki don't show up shields at all, thought I know they exist. Void shields I think they are called.

 

It's nothing against you, nor am I calling you a liar. It is simply a matter of principle that I cannot accept unsourced arguments.

 

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The point is that Game Mechanics are overridden in 40K table top because at least that has books and stories. There is no such thing for Battle Fleet Gothic, at least not on the level that you can get actual numbers from. So the higher Canon would be based around the Game Mechanics.

 

There are books, however, that show space battles, engagements and maneuvers.

 

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Telepathic Communication travels at around 10x the speed of Warp Travel from the sources I've found. However I cannot re-find those sources, so you don't have to take that x10. ButI can tell you that it is many times faster than actual ship travel, confirmed in any material regarding it. So news would only take a couple of months at the most to reach every ears in the IOM.

 

It makes sense that the telepathic communication is faster than warp travel itself, yet the problem is still the same. The communication may get there relatively fast, but the reinforcements themselves do not.

 

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2) Guardsmen during the Great Crusade with the Emperor did just that, they Guarded. That's what their purpose was, and they could do it because when the Emperor was around and when the other Legions were loyal they had enough Space Marines to do all the Attacking jobs. The Guard was the Shield of the Imperium and the Astrates the Sword.

3) I've almost forgot about the Legios Titanicus, most Space Marine planetary assaults are accompanied by (as the name implies) legions of Titans. These God-Machines would easily lay waste to however many troops the GE decided to pump out in defence of its planets. But the Titans aren't just relegated to attack, many imperial worlds have at least One of the smaller 40 story tall models. In fact there were Titans active in the poorer sectors of the Galaxy on planets at the far reaches of the Imperium. The GEs only equivalent would be an AT-AT, and even a small Titan would easily overpower one of those. Also did I forget, all models have some strength of Void Shield, giving them far more battlefield longevity than anything in the GEs arsenal.

 

Since I'm getting slightly frustrated by the amount of things that you are saying (and hoping I will take on trust, since you aren't actually bothering to put any links around for the vast majority of your claims) I've looked them up for you.

 

Imperial Guard

"The Imperial Guard is the primary fighting force of the Imperium, "

 

Also the AT-AT is a assault transport vehicle. It is not a dedicated attack vehicle like the Titans are. The A6 Juggernaut can give us a ballpark of the AT-AT (and any dedicated assault vehicles) strenght:

"Against an unshielded target, a Juggernaut could deliver the heat of a nuclear bomb into a small area."

[Guest Ruinus]

Skirmisher said:

As shown by the Segmentiums of the Imperium the IOM stretches over 80% of the Galaxy.

The Milky Way has 200 to 400 (Avg: 300B) billion stars, current estimates place that about 40% to 60% (avg: 50%) of stars can develop some type of terrestrial planet. We can stop there because the IOM can put people just about anywhere they want, they have the Tech to do it, and that would give a number of 127.5 billion worlds under the Imperium. But let's still go further with planets that could presumably support life, atmosphere, magnetosphere, etceterasphere. Current theories predict that 0.5% or more of these planets would have these conditions, meaning that 637 million planets in the IOM could support life. That's a very bare minimum considering that it implies Only one planet per star system and that there are no moons or asteroid belts. Meaning that the number of planets that the IOM controls would be much greater. Factoring in a combination of lifeless planets farmed for minerals and life sustaining planets farmed for men and food, the numbers that I gave are entirely reasonable.

 

Milky Way galaxy

"The Imperium exists within the Milky Way galaxy, a large spiral with a total mass of about 200-400 billion stars. The Imperial worlds are scattered throughout most of this galaxy, although it counts only a tiny fraction of the galaxy's stars as its territory."

 

WH40K wiki

The Imperium is the largest and most powerful political entity in the galaxy, consisting of at least a million worlds, which are dispersed across most of the Milky Way galaxy.

 

If you have sources that prove otherwise, show them.

 

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Actually the Resources drain would be in the opposite direction. If the GE attacked the IOM on their own turf, then the GE would have to spend the fuel and energy cost of waging a war into a galaxy that they know nothing about that is filled with extremely hostile peoples and creatures. Once they managed to find prime IOM targets they would then have to actually manage to permanently kill the IOMs warships, which is not an easy task, as even long dead space hulks can be refitted and ready for action in a couple months. And SW ships just don't have the firepower to even cripple the larger warships of the IOM unless they commit a large percentage of Fleet resources to fighting one.

 

No, they wouldn't. The GE ships can attack the least defended areas, destroy those planets, and them leave. They'd have to fight, at best, a few scattered defenders here and there, and might occasionally do all out offensives against fleets. This means that worlds that contribute to production of war resources are being destroyed across the strecth of Imperium space, and only on rare occasions could a counterattack be mounted.

 

Also, WTF is "permanently kill the IoMs warships" mean?

Prove that SW ships don't have the firepower to crippler the larger ships.

 

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Even then guess what, the raw materials that the GE doesn't limp home with would remain in IOM territory. Now how many expeditions could the GE launch if each time they sent ships in, barely any came back? Meanwhile the IOM would have all these extra ship carcasses littering its sectors, each one could be dragged back to an IOM shipyard and refitted with IOM technology providing the IOM with yet more ships. And then there's another advantage, the set-up has the Emperor of Mankind alive and well with all his sons. That would mean the IOM isn't as afraid of everything as it is in the current game timeline. The Emperor himself with an army of scientists would probably inspect every inch of every dead GE ship. Then he would determine that the Hyperdrive was without Chaos Taint and proclaim that every ship in the Imperium be fitted with one at soonest convenience.

 

World Devastators

The GE wouldn't have to waste it's own resources, it could simply plop those down in asteroid fields or uncolonized planets and churn out fleets using the resources of the Milky Way.

 

Also, you severly overestimate how long it would take to retrofit an entire fleet with an alien technology, let alone start building your own.

 

Oh wait, you know what?

 

The GE uses it's superios FTL to attack a relatively undefended planet. It gathers all the lasguns, vortex grenades, Titan models, tanks etc etc that it can carry, and runs back home. The next time the GE shows up, all it's soldiers are Dark troopers sporting lasguns, supported by SW-Titans, LeMan Russ tanks and all manner of reverse engineered technology.

 

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Yet all evidence of actual Ice Moons show that they are actual Moons that are covered in Ice and water. If it were called a large moon shaped chunk/ball of ice then I would say that "Yes, that is completely made of ice." But that is not the case. Your quote says "Ice Moon" meaning of a similar type to that of other Ice Moons, an example of which we have in our vary solar system: Europa the Ice Moon of Jupiter! Which has an Ice depth of 15-30km, a liquid ocean underneath and a rocky surface below that. Your quote went on to say that it only Melted it, not boiled it away to nothingness, meaning that that ship would have only melted the Ice and stopped when it hit the liquid water beneath, never touching the rock surface below the water.

 

Iapetus: A moon made 80% out of ice, well over 1,400 KM wide.

Mimas

Tethys

Dione

Rhea

 

I'd go on, but it seems that most of Saturns moons have most of their mass as ice.

The rings of Saturn are almost entirely made up of ice, it would be easy to imagine 1,000 km ice moons floating about, probably close to planets similar to Saturn.