The Imperium of Man (pre-Horus Heresy) vs Galactic Empire (at its peak)

[Guest boston_celtics]

It's around this time that somebody will say that all Ruinus' facts are wrong because they are based in non-canon source.

 

But I'm not complaining, I love reading this stuff, it's so interesting.

 

On a side note, it's good to see Ruinus back.

[Guest Ruinus]

Skirmisher said:

Gwagh?!?! Too many different posts and soooo much information to filter...

 

Yeah, something about "You have posted more than the allowed number of quoted blocks of text"

 

Quote

Good, you?

 

Fine. Except that my vacation ends this week.

 

Quote

Is there anymore context to that quote? Besides, GL isn't the best author I've read, and even the best ones mistakenly leave information out. Or just don't care. Or pare down stuff to help the flow of the story "fit".

 

Right after they jump to hyperspace after escaping Tatooine, right after Alderaan is destroyed.

 

Quote

So they were going to arrive at Alderanne at "0200", what day? It could just be GL showing off how accurate his computers are identifying the exact time at which they were to arrive down to the hour. Now if the quote went more like "Navigation computer calculates our arrival in Alderaan orbit in XX hours" then I'd believe it for what it was.

 

Same day. Had he meant they would arrive any other day he would have said "We'll arrive at Alderaan at 0200 tomorrow/day after tomorrow/a week from now."

 

It's the exact same thing as saying "Alright, I'll be over at your house at 2 PM."

 

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Yet during the Outer Rim sieges when Courescant was being attacked they were too distant to return IIRC. Even if they didn't want to leave because the CIS might escape they could have left just a single Stardestroyer in orbit and sat there like a watchdog for what, the couple of hours that the rest of the Fleet would have been busy defending the Capitol Planet?

 

No, the fleets that were participating in the Outer Rim Seiges could have returned, but that would have broken off their attack. Obi-Wan (and Anakin, I believe) was on a planet on the Outer Rim when he received word that Coruscant was being attacked. That battle couldn't have lasted more than a day.

 

And you forgot this part:

"The galactic disk and some satellite galaxies were mapped well enough that the omission of thirty-seven systems (including Kamino) from stellar charts were obvious gravitational anomalies, even when scanning from afar."

 

Also, look at the entries for the Unknown Regions and Wild Space.

 

There are governments there. Small ones to be sure, but there none the less. These governments no doubt have maps of their own territory. Again, I maintain that while perhaps some places weren't mapped out perfectly (like the Wookiee quote says, 36 star systems) but that it is called Unknown because the people there are unknown, no contact is maintained with them and hence no one knows about them.

[Guest Ruinus]

Lot's of people can be conceded and her implied statement that the Library held EVERYTHING is hyperbole. As well, a Star can still be considered in the charts of a Library just by observing it with a Telescope. Just because We have mapped a good number of stars doesn't mean that We are able to actually get to them with any kind of speed.

 

Again:

"The galactic disk and some satellite galaxies were mapped well enough that the omission of thirty-seven systems (including Kamino) from stellar charts were obvious gravitational anomalies, even when scanning from afar."

 

Still though, that's on top of the nearly uncharted Wild Space, which covers a bigger amount of the galaxy and the vague, obscure and frontierish Outer Rim. That all adds up to a fair amount of uncharted % of the Galaxy.

 

History of Wild Space

"One of Palpatine's last acts was to open up much of the region to more extensive exploration."

 

The Outer Rim is vague and obscure because not many people from the Core or Mid Rim go there, it's the frontier settler worlds. The Outer Rims are mapped, in fact I see nothing mentioning that the Outer Rim was unmapped or unexplored.

 

Which I still maintain does not mean that 15% of the stars are missing from their maps, just that those star systems have not been formally charted. (Given no name, no designation, placed under a sector group, or acknowledged to be under the control of whatever government is around).

 

Add in the barely explored Wild Space which by the map you've provided covers a far greater area, and you have a much higher percentage of the galaxy that goes unmapped.

 

Again, read the History section on the Wild Space page, Palpatine opened that area to exploration. Also the sheer fact that there are governments there means that someone has star maps for the area.

 

And that is the key point, someone has star maps for the area, except that those people are not important in comparison to the Galactic Republic, the Galactic Empire, the New Republic, the Alliance, etc etc.

 

Lets assume that Wild Space covers twice as much of the Galaxy as the UR.

 

Why should we? It can be seen here (very cheap image) and here much better image. (Though I find it a little vauge, since the areas aren't outlined.

 

This one has been only inadequately explored. Assuming 50% (generous) and that's yet another 15% of the Galaxy unmapped, and another 60 Billion systems unexplored.

 

The Grand Total on that Number is 120 Billion Systems Uncharted and Unexplored... That's 30% of the Galaxy...

 

That's a pretty far fetched number, considering that the overview of the Unknown Regions says that only a "few" billion star systems were uncharted (this might just be me, but 15% does not sound like a "few"). Also the fact that 30% of the galaxy remaining completely unexplored is a little hard to swallow, given that we have seen maps of the galaxy, and there isn't large sections missing out of it.

 

Again, I maintain that the Unknown Regions and Wild Space are considered "explored" or "unknown" because:

1- The political affiliations (or religious, ideological, philosophical, cultural) aspects of the people there are unknown.

2- No good trade routes exist into the area, making trade there cost ineffective (and hence, making communication hard, leading to 1)

3- "Not formally charted" and "unknown" is from the point of view of the main civilization (the GR, GE, NR, etc). Small governments populate that area, and can be expected to have star maps of their own territory. From the point of view of, say, the planet Plintep or the Ssi-ruuvi the rest of the galaxy is "unknown" or "uncharted."

 

This, I think, is backed up again by the Jedi Librarian (who you might say is conceited) but I say is backed up by the quote stating that 36 star systems missing from the galactic map is an "obvious gravitational anomaly".

 

 

Can you post those links again? They are not working for me.

[Guest Ruinus]

But again, it is much faster. The IoM would have to take months to reach any location in the Star Wars galaxy, while the GE takes only a few days or hours.

 

The Set Up:

The Imperium has to wait months to get anywhere in the Star Wars Galaxy. Therefor the Galactic Empire can setup defenses with no problems.

 

Massive Shield Generators that could easily repel anything the GE throws at them. The Largest Shield Generators out there would be Battleship grade shield generators, which from the looks of it span about 8000 to 10,000 kilometers in diameter.

 

I can't comment on that, since:

1- The link still doesn't work for me

2- That would get into firepower claims, which, while I am pretty confident I can debate about, I am not sure that those figures exist for your side?

 

Oh what the hell.

An old Venator-class Star Destroyer can spit out around 800 teratons per shot at max power. Can the shield generaters take that? Do they cover the entire planet?

 

Yeah, I know space is a projectile friendly environment. I always rationalize it out as "10 light minutes is the farthest out these ships can target an enemy ship on a predictable course and hit it." Remember that while the guns have infinite range the targeting computers might not be able to get a reliable lock on a target farther out.

 

One platform could easily shrug off the fire power of a small squadron of ISD's for dozens of hours or even days, allowing the Imperiums defense fleet to respond, and respond they will as the GE can't jam Psychic Communication.

 

How much can it's shields take?

Why would the ISDs hang around for that long instead of leaving for another target?

 

There is a problem with that assessment of fleet strength. It's based on the theory that the GE was a their predicted peak strength.

 

The Set Up:

Galactic Empire at the top of its power. With all its weapons and forces.

 

As well, who's to say that an Oversector group was in addition to sector groups, from the numbers it just looks like three sector groups that are to be governed by one person instead of three.

 

Oversector

Palpatine assigned a military Regional Governor known as a Grand Moff to each Oversector, superseding the authority of Sectorial Governors (Moffs), Planetary Governors, and other local authorities.

 

A Grand Moff is assigned with higher authority over the Moffs and authorities below him/her.

 

In fact I keep wondering about the fabled industrial might that is spoken of...

 

You mean that A New Hope, which shows that the GE has the ability to construct a mechanized moon that is 160 km wide, in secret, in the middle of nowhere, with an unnoticeable drain on the galactic resources and then (Return of the Jedi building a second, much bigger 900 km wide version, also in secret, in the middle of nowhere, with an unnoticeable drain on the galactic resources (both of which mass several billion ISDs) doesn't scream "industrial might" to you?

[Guest Ruinus]

The problem with that is that no undefended star systems ever last that long in the IOM. They all have a myriad of orbital platforms or dedicated non-navy system ships and defence monitors that would be more than a match for a couple Stardestroyers. They could easily hold out for days against such an inferior foe, that has no choice but to use ineffective hit and run attacks. That would easily allow for an Actual Navy Fleet presence to show up in system and chase away the offending rabble of small ships.

 

Show the firepower figures and shield figures.

 

They can conscript all they want... then those conscripts would have second thoughts and they might even rebel.

 

Because you say so?

 

Droids? Yet, they would be mowed down faster than you could "say what?".

 

Again, because you say so?

 

I am not doubting the ground forces of the IoM (I have read some WH40K), but I do doubt that all their ground forces are unquestionably superior. The Imperial Guard, I think is about equal to the Imperial Army. Space Marines are no doubt far stronger, faster and everything than stormtroopers, but can the same be said of the Dark Troopers?

 

Wow, you just broke the Empire!

 

Because you say so?

You made this claim, support it with numbers. I'd love to read the GE's financial budget.

 

Mean while the IOM doesn't have that problem, the Military gets what they need, and the people happily give it to them for free.

 

The IoM has the ability to fabricate an infinite amount of resources? Planets won't get taxed for their resources? No famines? Nothing?

The IoM is a sparkling utopia where the military gets what it wants whenever it needs it and the GE doesn't?

 

Sorry, I had to remove your quote about the conscripts being green

 

Or they are all cloned and made completely obedient. Or droids are made which are also completely obedient. The GE has months to prepare (as per the set up), giving them time to train their conscripts. Both the cloning and the droid production have already been done during the Clone Wars, so this would not be unprecedented.

 

(PS: Stormtroopers are also cloned.)

[Guest Ruinus]

Let's say that yes they raise that big of an army... What are they going to fight with?

 

The CIS, and the Grand Army of the Republic both fielded armies measuring in the quntillions, and they had no trouble equipping their armies.

Prove the GEs mining operations do not get them sufficient quantities of tibanna gas.

Prove the GE won't be able to equip all its soldiers.

 

What type of blaster?

Can you give firepower yields on lasguns vs blasters to back up all these claims you are making?

 

Numbers on the Strength of Space Marine Legions vary, but my guesstimate is that they probably had a standing strength in the range of 10,000 to 20,000 Space Marines. As after the Heresy, Legions were to be split into chapters of a 1000 Marines in ten companies. After their ranks were decimated by the Heresy, they were still able to split up into about a dozen chapters each.

 

So that would be about 165,000 Space Marines, each with the ability to wipe out 1000 regular men each with little trouble. Then there's their equipment and tanks, Terminator Armour and heavier weapons than just a bolter...

 

What?

How can you go from 20,000 Space marines, then being decimated by the Heresy, then having more Space Marines than before? You sure you didn't mess up your math there?

 

Shouldn't it be:

20,000 - Horus Heresy decimation (whatever percent you want here?) = #

?

 

Battle Barges each one more than strong enough to gut an SSD in minutes.

 

Prove this to be true.

Weapon yields? Shield strength?

 

then the many hundreds of thousands of smaller frigates and destroyers that are each easily an able match an ISD.

 

Prove this to be true.

Weapon yields? Shield strenght?

 

Think of it like this, you may have a billion ships, but if every battle you loose hundreds or thousands to my one or two, then who wins in the long run? I can comfortably say that I would expect the IOM to effectively be able to deal with tens of billions of ISDs with this size of fleet.

 

Prove this to be true.

 

Seriously Skirmisher, what the hell? We both know that I can't stand unsourced claims like this, especially after going through all the trouble of looking around Wookieepedia to find sources/quotes/pages to back up my own claims. You are claiming that the IoM spaceships can match GE ships? Fine, I have no problem with that, you may be entirely correct for all I know. But the thing is that I don't know. And I don't know because you haven't given me any links to things (except those that don't work, which don't help at all.) Show me some firepower calcs, some shield strengths. Some pages on IoM sector groups, on how many planets are actually defended by those stations?

[Guest Ruinus]

It's around this time that somebody will say that all Ruinus' facts are wrong because they are based in non-canon source.

 

But I'm not complaining, I love reading this stuff, it's so interesting.

 

On a side note, it's good to see Ruinus back.

 

I hope not, since then I'd have to get side-tracked on a "Seriously, just read the canon rules for Star Wars, they're up for anyone to see." debate, and those are pretty annoying.

 

Yeah, I like reading these types of things too. Star Wars, I think, is sometimes made way too cheesy. I prefer reading the dirty parts of it, which unfortunately don't show up much. For instance, some weapons, like the A280 blasters can rip fully armored stormtroopers in half.... yet none of the comics ever show this. Sad, sad.

 

Thanks.

[Guest MarvelFan15]

Two of the greatest debaters duking it out...

 

*grabs lawn chair, and a cold one*

[Guest ricrery]

Let's not forget Warp travel can cause time travel, such as getting to places before even leaving, and with no Chaos Gods on their backs, they could get their with little problems. Let's not begin talking about the Tyranids who number into the hundreds of quadrillions (an that's most likely a small number as we have never seen their true Hive) at least, who the Imperium has beaten before on some occasions. Plus, Psykers can easily beat a Jedi/Sith.

[Guest Ruinus]

Let's not forget Warp travel can cause time travel, such as getting to places before even leaving, and with no Chaos Gods on their backs, they could get their with little problems.

 

The warp is, from what I understand, not turbulent or dangerous because of the Chaos Gods deliberate plans to make it so, but it is turbulent and dangerous by it's very nature. The Chaos Gods not being there wouldn't cause warp travel to be faster, slower, or a time travel mechanism.

 

BTW, I've only heard of a few time travel events occuring, with the Lexicanum suggesting that it doesn't occur often.

 

However, if you wish to claim that Warp travel will suddently become faster and allow time travel, it is up to you to prove so.

 

Let's not begin talking about the Tyranids who number into the hundreds of quadrillions (an that's most likely a small number as we have never seen their true Hive) at least, who the Imperium has beaten before on some occasions. Plus, Psykers can easily beat a Jedi/Sith.

 

The Tyranids aren't here, so who cares?

What type of Psyker, against what type of Jedi/Sith?

[C.T.]

Two of the greatest debaters duking it out...

 

*grabs lawn chair, and a cold one*

 

 

Nova shows up...with the hot dogs.

 

Nova asks MF "Hey, where's Marvel Man, and darthsketch?

[Guest MarvelFan15]

"Dunno. They should be here..." *shrugs, and grabs a hotdog*

[Skirmisher]

Commence Volley Fire!

 

Ruinus said:

Yeah, something about "You have posted more than the allowed number of quoted blocks of text"

I try and keep it down to about five quotes per post, but still this is a lot of information.

 

Ruinus said:

Same day. Had he meant they would arrive any other day he would have said "We'll arrive at Alderaan at 0200 tomorrow/day after tomorrow/a week from now."

Yet there is still ambiguity, nothing is definite, as it did not give an exact specification of how much time it would take to travel from A to B . It could just as well have been said to prepare the passengers that they would be arriving very early in the morning. That the local flight administration would be on night shift, and any important persons might be at home in bed.

 

Ruinus said:

No, the fleets that were participating in the Outer Rim Seiges could have returned, but that would have broken off their attack. Obi-Wan (and Anakin, I believe) was on a planet on the Outer Rim when he received word that Coruscant was being attacked. That battle couldn't have lasted more than a day.

Yet Obi Wan and Anakin were apparently already on their way Back to Coruscant, from the Outer Rim Sieges, following the trail of Darth Sidius. Of course they would have arrived just as timely as the defence fleets, because they, like the defence fleets wouldn't have been that far away to begin with. Like by calcs show, their ships should have been able to reasonably push 1000 ly/day meaning that with the defence fleets taking only hours to get there, they would have been maybe as far away as the next sector at the most.

 

Ruinus said:

Unknown Regions[/url] and Wild Space.

 

There are governments there. Small ones to be sure, but there none the less. These governments no doubt have maps of their own territory. Again, I maintain that while perhaps some places weren't mapped out perfectly (like the Wookiee quote says, 36 star systems) but that it is called Unknown because the people there are unknown, no contact is maintained with them and hence no one knows about them.

Like I said before, they can be observed from a distance and still "Mapped" yet still remains unexplored. We can map stars systems but cannot actually get to those systems. As well, yes there are probably people that live out in these vast unexplored spaces, just as there are probably lost tribes in the Amazon Rain Forest. If you can't get out there then you can't ask them which government they will follow. I'm just saying that, in the 25,000+ years history of FTL travel in the Star Wars galaxy, at speeds that you claim, with as many people that have access to FTL ships... that the Entire Galaxy should have easily been explored by the reign of Emperor Palpatine.

 

Ruinus said:

Again:

"The galactic disk and some satellite galaxies were mapped well enough that the omission of thirty-seven systems (including Kamino) from stellar charts were obvious gravitational anomalies, even when scanning from afar."

Like I said before, We can map stars and their systems, but can we actually travel to them at any speed? The fact still remains that there are large portions of the Galaxy that still go unexplored. Your quote stated that the Unknown Regions comprised 15% of the Galaxy, and that the UR is almost completely unexplored by the Republic and Empire. Then there's Wild Space, from that first grainy picture it looked as if we were looking at a quarter of the galaxy and that the place where Wild space was scrawled across took up almost a half of that space. If we are to look at the better map then we see a much greater area of the Galaxy in Wild or equivalent Space. Meaning that that's almost another complete 15%. From the quotes that I provided, Wild Space is fairly inadequately explored by the Republic and Empire, and that the only major exploration to be done in the region was vary late into Palpatines Rule.

 

"One of Palpatine's last acts was to open up much of the region to more extensive exploration."

[Skirmisher]

The Outer Rim is vague and obscure because not many people from the Core or Mid Rim go there, it's the frontier settler worlds. The Outer Rims are mapped, in fact I see nothing mentioning that the Outer Rim was unmapped or unexplored.

 

Which I still maintain does not mean that 15% of the stars are missing from their maps, just that those star systems have not been formally charted. (Given no name, no designation, placed under a sector group, or acknowledged to be under the control of whatever government is around).

I have not really talked about the Outer Rim being unexplored. I did call the place Frontierish and still maintain that although it could easily be mapped a good deal of it might just be unexplored. Let's take Earth history as an example, the wild west was frontierish, all they really knew about the land was the general layout of the country, where it started, where it ended, mountains and deserts and prairies… but everything was vague and not too well explored. That's how I see the Outer Rim.

 

Again, read the History section on the Wild Space page, Palpatine opened that area to exploration. Also the sheer fact that there are governments there means that someone has star maps for the area.

 

And that is the key point, someone has star maps for the area, except that those people are not important in comparison to the Galactic Republic, the Galactic Empire, the New Republic, the Alliance, etc etc.

Like I have been trying to say, although these regions may be mapped, it does not mean they have been Explored by Galactic Republic, the Galactic Empire, the New Republic, the Alliance, etc…

 

Let's use another example, let's say I have a Car. I would like to explore the country or beyond. So I buy a map! Did I personally make this map? No, the people already living in the area that I want to explore made the map, or I used Satellite images to make my map. This does not mean that I personally drove out there and surveyed the area or had a friend/family member do the same. So map in hand, I drive out to places unknown and frontierish. My name is "Current Galactic Core Government" and my country and the other countries around it is the Galaxy.

 

That's a pretty far fetched number, considering that the overview of the Unknown Regions says that only a "few" billion star systems were uncharted (this might just be me, but 15% does not sound like a "few"). Also the fact that 30% of the galaxy remaining completely unexplored is a little hard to swallow, given that we have seen maps of the galaxy, and there isn't large sections missing out of it.

Like you said before

 

Force Heretic II: Refugee

"15% of the galaxy's volume was contained within the Unknown Regions"

 

That's only the UR, I was adding in Wild Space and even the small areas of the Outer Rim that are still unexplored. It's also not that hard to swallow if they can't really travel as fast as you say they are able to. If ships are only able to travel at or around 1000 ly/day then it makes perfect sense.

 

Again, I maintain that the Unknown Regions and Wild Space are considered "explored" or "unknown" because:

1- The political affiliations (or religious, ideological, philosophical, cultural) aspects of the people there are unknown.

2- No good trade routes exist into the area, making trade there cost ineffective (and hence, making communication hard, leading to 1)

3- "Not formally charted" and "unknown" is from the point of view of the main civilization (the GR, GE, NR, etc). Small governments populate that area, and can be expected to have star maps of their own territory. From the point of view of, say, the planet Plintep or the Ssi-ruuvi the rest of the galaxy is "unknown" or "uncharted."

 

This, I think, is backed up again by the Jedi Librarian (who you might say is conceited) but I say is backed up by the quote stating that 36 star systems missing from the galactic map is an "obvious gravitational anomaly".

 

 

Can you post those links again? They are not working for me.

Yet only recently during the Galactic Civil War did the rest of the Civilised Galaxy actually see Plintep or the Ssi-ruuvi. Oh sure the star systems were probably on record as being there, but no-one from any of the Major Governments had ever tried to work their way out there and explore the systems. As far as I can see, this is because it was too far away to care about. Only when the Rebels started to hide out in the far reaches of the galaxy did the Empire actually care enough to send ships out, to slowly work their way to these systems. This either means that the space between the stars is so full of junk that the ships have to make really small jumps to plot around everything, or that they are slower than you give credit. Since Space is vast compared to the junk that fills if the first point cannot logically be the case.

 

Links Fixed, it's all the commotion of so many posts hitting the boards at once. Screwed up the url and broke it.

 

But again, it is much faster. The IoM would have to take months to reach any location in the Star Wars galaxy, while the GE takes only a few days or hours.

 

The Set Up:

The Imperium has to wait months to get anywhere in the Star Wars Galaxy. Therefor the Galactic Empire can setup defenses with no problems.

The IOM naturally take months to get anywhere in our own Galaxy, such is the fickle creature that is the Warp. But still, Just remember that, that's what it is, a completely different universe that they travel through, and that the GE can't track. They may be able to set up defences, but it would be just like England and the Viking Raids during the Dark Ages. They could only rally a defence at the last possible moment, because they could only see as far as the horizon.

 

Here though it's only when the IOMs ships appear insystem that the GE would be able to rally a defence, and if the IOM happens to land somewhere the GE wasn't expecting then there would be no emplacements that took months to put up. There would only be the few system defence ships (if any) and whatever help that could arrive in time.

[Skirmisher]

That would get into firepower claims, which, while I am pretty confident I can debate about, I am not sure that those figures exist for your side?

 

That's a Battle Barge, it alone did in less than a minute with only Bombardment Cannons what a couple of ISD's take hours to do. That is my Fire Power Claim for the IOM.

 

Oh what the hell.

An old Venator-class Star Destroyer can spit out around 800 teratons per shot at max power. Can the shield generaters take that? Do they cover the entire planet?

Like I said, Battleships Grade Void Shields cover an area with a diameter of about 8000 to 10,000 kilometres. Not Planetary but still not that bad. As for the amount of damage they can soak, look to that video, these shield would tank almost a full volley of that kind of Damage.

 

How much can it's shields take?

Why would the ISDs hang around for that long instead of leaving for another target?

A basic defence platform has a Shield Strength of 1

My calcs show that this is about the equivalent of an ISD.

 

However, thanks to it's Dozens of meters of Adamantium armour plating it is as tough as a Battleships armoured prow, the part of the ship they use to Ram with, the part that's can smash into other ships at many thousands of kilometres per second and take only minor damage. It should be good enough to take a sustained bombardment of Turbo Lasers in my opinion.

 

But that's just the basic platforms, there are also Space Stations that have twice the amount of shields as well, as having eight times the amount of bracing and redundant systems as an ordinary platform. This would make it hard to take down even if you get through the shield and the armour.

 

 

The Set Up:

Galactic Empire at the top of its power. With all its weapons and forces.

Yes they would have all the power that they had at their Peak. I'm just saying that they don't have the Assumed and Unsupported amounts of power that you say they have.

 

I can easily see them having a few million Combat Ships, ranging from the big Super Stardestroyers all the way down to the small Gunboats. But you're assuming that they have Hundreds of Billions of Stardestroyers and Super Stardestoryers, and trillions of smaller frigates and escorts.

 

Oversector

Palpatine assigned a military Regional Governor known as a Grand Moff to each Oversector, superseding the authority of Sectorial Governors (Moffs), Planetary Governors, and other local authorities.

 

A Grand Moff is assigned with higher authority over the Moffs and authorities below him/her.

Just like I said before.

 

What I believed that you were implying, was that there would be Three Sector Groups comprised of X ships each, AND THEN and Over Sector Group that also had X ships.

 

What I see it as, is more like a Sector Group being the Platoon to the Over Sector Groups Company. Every X Sector Groups ARE an Over Sector that had to be managed by a Higher Rank.

[Skirmisher]

You mean that A New Hope, which shows that the GE has the ability to construct a mechanized moon that is 160 km wide, in secret, in the middle of nowhere, with an unnoticeable drain on the galactic resources and then (Return of the Jedi building a second, much bigger 900 km wide version, also in secret, in the middle of nowhere, with an unnoticeable drain on the galactic resources (both of which mass several billion ISDs) doesn't scream "industrial might" to you?

For one thing, Gorge Lucas himself stated how it was built, Droids. Yet the first one took almost two decades to be finished, probably because they didn"t have the workforce in place. That they needed to make the droids as well as work in the DS in secret. After that they still had the Droid and construction on the DS2 was much faster, but when was it really started? Probably right after the last one blew up, that"s still about 4 years and even then more than half of it was still unfinished, with who knows how much of the interior being covered by just a thin shell. After that the droids that were still working on the DS2 were gone, blown up, and the Empire could never recover them.

 

 

Show the firepower figures and shield figures.

 

 

Because you say so?

The conscripts would rebel it"s in their nature, no regular civilian would want to stick their neck out. Especially not when they are thrown into a meatgrinder. It would be just like Stalingrad. The conscripts would rush the enemy filled with whatever lies and rhetoric the Emperor filled their heads with. Then when the people around them start the spontaneously explode and cake their guts and gore across the other conscripts, they would break. They would turn to run and only be met with the guns of their own side. Or not, they could run in fear and spread their stories to the rest of the conscripts, then there would be a problem. Legions of conscripts horrified by these stories would break well before even encountering the enemy, some would try to defect, some would just run and keep running, but the effect would be the same on every battlefront.

 

 

Again, because you say so?

 

I am not doubting the ground forces of the IoM (I have read some WH40K), but I do doubt that all their ground forces are unquestionably superior. The Imperial Guard, I think is about equal to the Imperial Army. Space Marines are no doubt far stronger, faster and everything than stormtroopers, but can the same be said of the Dark Troopers?

Lasgun: Strength 3, Effects on the human body: one medium-low setting was reported to have explosively evaporated a Mans arm from Collar bone to Elbow. That"s Strength 3 for you, and that"s what 40k"er jokingly call a Flashlight since that"s about how good they are against a Space Marines armour.

 

The Space Marine standard weapon, the Bolter: Strength 4, each round is a .75 calibre (20mm) armour piercing grenade, each one primed to penetrate up to a couple of inches before detonating. It fires like a modern day assault rifle on full auto, meaning 300-500 rounds per minute.

 

Special Weapons that they can take would be Plasmaguns: Strength 8, able to spew a large stream of plasma at their targets leaving completely incinerated and vaporised remains in the target zone.

 

Assault Cannon: Strength 6 but is noted for its extremely high rate of fire, with the number of rounds per second counted in the hundreds. The standard ammunition fired is a cased round, comprising a dense metallic core covered in a non-metallic composite sheath with a diamantine tip. It usually rends its targets to small meaty bits and has only moderate trouble putting tanks in their place.

 

I will leave you to ponder that.

 

 

The IoM has the ability to fabricate an infinite amount of resources? Planets won't get taxed for their resources? No famines? Nothing?

The IoM is a sparkling utopia where the military gets what it wants whenever it needs it and the GE doesn't?

No each and every one of the tens of hundreds of millions of worlds under the IOM pays a Teith or tax. That tax is whatever the planet can produce, be it Metal, Fuel, Food, Equipment, or even Men. They have to pay, and it is all to feed the Military, except the few million worlds that the Space Marines are allowed to govern, all their taxes go straight to the Space Marines who also benefit from being in the IOMs military.

[Skirmisher]

Or they are all cloned and made completely obedient. Or droids are made which are also completely obedient. The GE has months to prepare (as per the set up), giving them time to train their conscripts. Both the cloning and the droid production have already been done during the Clone Wars, so this would not be unprecedented.

 

(PS: Stormtroopers are also cloned.)

The problem with Clones is that unless you want to make them organic droids, they would still have Fear. No-one in the entire history of the Galaxy in Star Wars has ever came close to grasping the concept of the literal Hell that is a 40K warzone. Even crack clone troopers would balk at the sight of so much death coming their way and falling amongst their ranks. What can I say about Droids, well there is a reason why Clones were better than Droids.

 

PS: Not all Stormtroopers are clones, by Endor a lot of them were recruited.

 

The CIS, and the Grand Army of the Republic both fielded armies measuring in the quntillions, and they had no trouble equipping their armies.

Prove the GEs mining operations do not get them sufficient quantities of tibanna gas.

Prove the GE won't be able to equip all its soldiers.

I find that number to be highly questionable. Besides, my previous statements covered my reasoning about Blaster Gas production. I also refer to it as Blaster Gas, because other gasses can be substituted for Tibanna Gas. The single fact that not everyone who has a modern weapon in the civilised Galaxy has a blaster, that some find it hard to get the gas for their weapons and all that. Not only that, but the whole Clone Wars was a joke, it was a staged battle fought across the Galaxy with Sidius pulling the strings. Who's to say that he didn't organise a stockpile of blaster gas, just for the war?

 

What type of blaster?

Can you give firepower yields on lasguns vs blasters to back up all these claims you are making?

Not too sure on the actual numbers, but judging by the descriptions of the damage that the Medium powered setting on a Lasgun at medium range does. I would have to say somewhere between 4 to 8 Megajoules per shot. That compared to the 150 Kilojoules that a standard weapon to Stormtroopers the E-11 can produce. Or even the fabled results of the fictional "High Powered" blasts.

 

As well, I have heard of heavy blaster weapons that have the ability to put them in the fire power range of a Lasgun (Cutting a man in half). However these are not the standard issue to Stormtroopers, also of note, to attain such power they would invariably require much more amounts of Blaster Gas to operate in comparison to an E-11. Such supplies of blaster gas currently seem beyond the capabilities of the Empire, considering the fact that the Blaster is a major weapon in the galaxy, not every armed person has access to one, or the Gas to fire it.

 

 

What?

How can you go from 20,000 Space marines, then being decimated by the Heresy, then having more Space Marines than before? You sure you didn't mess up your math there?

 

Shouldn't it be:

20,000 - Horus Heresy decimation (whatever percent you want here?) = #<20,000?

Easy, After the Heresy each Legoin split with an average of about a dozen chapters each. This was After Heavy loses to KIA and Chaos. So if a Full Legoin (without loses) were to be split it would have to have more men, and would therefore be able to split into two or more dozen chapters each. This would mean that the full strength of a Legion is around 20,000 Space Marines.

 

The current setting is at the Peak of the IOM in strength, so that is Pre-Heresy, meaning all the Legions are still loyal to the Emperor and all of the Legions are at maximum or near maximum strength. Since as I stated, the Emperor would probably leave half his sons behind to look after the home Galaxy he would still have 10 Legions Plus his personal Legion of Space Marines with him. This would mean a full force of a quarter million Space Marines.

 

 

Seriously Skirmisher, what the hell? We both know that I can't stand unsourced claims like this, especially after going through all the trouble of looking around Wookieepedia to find sources/quotes/pages to back up my own claims. You are claiming that the IoM spaceships can match GE ships? Fine, I have no problem with that, you may be entirely correct for all I know. But the thing is that I don't know. And I don't know because you haven't given me any links to things (except those that don't work, which don't help at all.) Show me some firepower calcs, some shield strengths. Some pages on IoM sector groups, on how many planets are actually defended by those stations?

Battle Fleet Gothic Imperial ship resources gives a listing of what each ship in the fleet is capable of in comparison to eachother. Taking the Data from the

, we can easily see what these small numbers mean.

 

It took several volleys from it's bombardment cannons to produce tens of Petatons of explosive force, enough to fracture the crust of a planet all the way down to the mantel, from just hitting one spot. It's Bombardment Cannons are a strength of 8 and are only slightly more powerful pound for pound than regular Weapons Batteries.

 

Therefore since several Vollies produced that much energy then one volley at Strength 8 would only produce at or around Petatons level explosive force. Considering the fact that it can launch several volleys in under a minute means that if it were to face a Super Stardestroyer it would pwn it in a couple of minutes.

 

As for numbers of Defence Structures, I snipped this right out of the Rule Book for doing Campaigns.

 

As you can see, even an Uninhabited world could have up to 2 defence platforms, while Forge Worlds could have 2 to 7 such installations.

 

 

I also hope my links don't screw up this time.

[Guest Ruinus]

It's not ambigous at all.

"Navigation computer calculates our arrival in Alderaan orbit at oh two hundred."

He didn't say we'd arrive the next day (in the morning, as you propose), or at night (which would be meaningless to Luke and Obi, since saying "We'll arrive at their nighttime doesn't tell them how long the trip takes.)

Saying, we'll arrive at 0200 means "We'll arrive at 2AM OUR time."

 

EVEN IF it's 0200 the next day, it still shows that hyperdrive can cross the galaxy in a day or two, which proves this:

I challenge the myth that Star Wars hyper drives can travel the length of the galaxy in hours or days

to be flat out wrong.

 

Quote

Yet Obi Wan and Anakin were apparently already on their way Back to Coruscant, from theOuter Rim Sieges, following the trail of Darth Sidius. Of course they would have arrived just as timely as the defence fleets, because they, like the defence fleets wouldnt have been that far away to begin with. Like by calcs show, their ships should have been able to reasonably push 1000 ly/day meaning that with the defence fleets taking only hours to get there, they would have been maybe as far away as the next sector at the most.

 

They were in orbit over Nelvaan, a planet in the Outer Rim.

 

They arrive crazy fast, since Greivous had just left on his shuttle and only had enough time to dock aboard the Invisible Hand and secure Palpatine to the chair on the observation deck.

 

Quote

Like I said before, they can be observed from a distance and still "Mapped" yet still remains unexplored.

 

So what is your claim then? Because originally you said:

As well, if their ships really did travel that fast then the whole of the Star Wars Galaxy would have bee thoroughly mapped millennia ago, yet I have seen canon sources state that the vast majority of the galaxy still remains unmapped.

 

So are you arguing that the galaxy is unmapped? (Which is false, and hence your original claim is wrong) Or that it is unexplored? (In which case, that may be true. I say may because there are various reasons why they may have never sent anyone to actually see, land on, or explore the star systems in detail.

 

Quote

Like I said before, We can map stars and their systems, but can we actually travel to them at any speed?

 

We can't, but they can.

The thing is, why would they want to? What incentive is there for them to do so? Travel there is hard, it is probably cost-ineffective, and the governments that exist there probably have little to no resources, technology, or whatever to trade.

 

So again:

Simply because they can go there doesn't mean they want to.

 

Quote

Wild Space, from that first grainy picture it looked as if we were looking at a quarter of the galaxy and that the place where Wild space was scrawled across took up almost a half of that space.

 

A quarter of the galaxy? By no stretch of the imagination does that picture look like it takes up "a quarter of the galaxy."

 

Quote

If we are to look at the better map then we see a much greater area of the Galaxy in Wild or equivalent Space. Meaning that that's almost another complete 15%. From the quotes that I provided, Wild Space is fairly inadequately explored by the Republic and Empire, and that the only major exploration to be done in the region was vary late into Palpatines Rule.

 

The page on the UR says that it takes up 15% of the galaxy's volume. It specifically mentions part of this being the galactic halo, which have little amounts of stars in them. It also clearly states that many of the star systems were mapped.

 

So again, your original claim that the galaxy was largely unmapped is wrong.

Your claim that the galaxy is unexplored is half-right and wrong. It is unexplored by the major polities of the galaxy, it is not unexplored by the people who live there.

 

I'll respond to the rest of your posts tomorrow, please hold off on your counterarguments until I post the rest of mine Ok?

[Guest Ruinus]

Mmmh, interesting view.

I think of the Outer Rim as "frontier" and "settler regions" as "Yeah, this place of the galaxy doesn't have city planets, giant shipyards, galactic commerce centers or the populations that the Mid and Core has."

 

Like I have been trying to say, although these regions may be mapped, it does not mean they have been Explored by Galactic Republic, the Galactic Empire, the New Republic, the Alliance, etc…

 

And I have been agreeing with you since the start.

I am also saying, however, that simply because the MAJOR governments haven't explored the entire galaxy doesn't mean the entire galaxy hasn't been explored already by OTHER PEOPLE.

 

Let's use another example, let's say I have a Car. I would like to explore the country or beyond. So I buy a map! Did I personally make this map? No, the people already living in the area that I want to explore made the map, or I used Satellite images to make my map. This does not mean that I personally drove out there and surveyed the area or had a friend/family member do the same. So map in hand, I drive out to places unknown and frontierish. My name is "Current Galactic Core Government" and my country and the other countries around it is the Galaxy.

 

This would be all well and good had your initial claim been

I claim that the Galactic Republic, the Galactic Empire, the New Republic, the Alliance etc. has not mapped and explored the entire galaxy.

 

BUT your initial claim was:

As well, if their ships really did travel that fast then the whole of the Star Wars Galaxy would have bee thoroughly mapped millennia ago,

 

You made that statement on the first page of this discussion, changing your claim from "the galaxy is unmapped" to "the galaxy may be mapped, but still unexplored". Skirmisher you simply cannot change the goal posts like that. Your initial claim is wrong, the galaxy has been mapped (and several of the companion galaxies have been mapped too) and now you are simply stating something I have been saying since the beginning of the discussion, that while the GR, GE, NR etc hasn't been everywhere personally, someone has. And, combining all the knowledge/exploration of all the governments in Star Wars it is very likely that most systems have been explored.

 

I offer an addendum to your analogy.

I have a car, I can now, if I choose, go out and explore the wilderness of planet Earth.

Why should I?

Is someone paying me? How much? Will I make a profit after I factor in fuel costs, travel costs, supply costs, and medicine costs?

If I get into any trouble out there, can I count on some help from the police, or the government? Or am I on my own? If so, why would I go without backup?

Is there anything interesting there?

Are there people there? Are they friendly or hostile? How many of them are there? Can I safely outrun them?

Is there any type of fuel stations or edible food in that area? Medicine? Will I be able to replenish my supplies while I am there?

 

Considering all these questions (and probably more I have not thought of, such as "Is someone/something waiting for me back home? Can I leave them for any amount of time?) tell me Skirmisher, simply because I have the car, simply because I can get there, why should I?

 

Why shouldn't I simply hop over to the civilized city where my friends live, and where they've got air conditioning?

 

That's only the UR, I was adding in Wild Space and even the small areas of the Outer Rim that are still unexplored. It's also not that hard to swallow if they can't really travel as fast as you say they are able to.

 

If I say the are able to?

Dude, the movies themselves show that cross galactic travel is available to civilian ships.

Also, as I said in my last post, read the Unknown Region's entry again. Most of it is situated in the galactic halo, which has a lower density of stars than the main body. It also says that it comprises 15% of the galaxy's volume, not mass, star systems, planets or whatever, but simply it's volume. It's also partly situated in dense nebulae (in which, IIRC from Astronomy 1, planets cannot forum in nebulae, they form out of nebula as they collapse under gravity)

 

The IOM naturally take months to get anywhere in our own Galaxy, such is the fickle creature that is the Warp

 

So they take months in the Milky Way to get anywhere, and they take months in the Star Wars galaxy to get anywhere.

One side takes months, the other takes days.

You do not seriously see the crippling disadvantage this poses?

[Guest Ruinus]

That's a Battle Barge, it alone did in less than a minute with only Bombardment Cannons what a couple of ISD's take hours to do. That is my Fire Power Claim for the IOM.

 

Actually, I still saw rivers. A Base Delta Zero wouldn't leave rivers. Small nitpick to be sure but still.

Also, what the hell was it shooting? Why did that giant 'explosion' pulse upwards, and then, only after all the shots were fired, explode all over the planet?

 

Like I said, Battleships Grade Void Shields cover an area with a diameter of about 8000 to 10,000 kilometres.

 

Battleship? What IoM battle ships are 8,000 to 10,000km across?

Send me a link to some page that claims that battleship shields cover that area.

 

A basic defence platform has a Shield Strength of 1

My calcs show that this is about the equivalent of an ISD.

 

This is pretty ridiculous.

You are using game mechanics?

 

No, I mean how many gigatons/teratons per second can it handle? Peak absorption rate, that sort of stuff.

Because hell, I can try to look up the stats for blasters, and ships using the old Star Wars RPG game systems if you really want? We could compare meaningless numbers with meaningless numbers.

 

Yes they would have all the power that they had at their Peak. I'm just saying that they don't have the Assumed and Unsupported amounts of power that you say they have.

 

I can easily see them having a few million Combat Ships, ranging from the big Super Stardestroyers all the way down to the small Gunboats. But you're assuming that they have Hundreds of Billions of Stardestroyers and Super Stardestoryers, and trillions of smaller frigates and escorts.

 

Yes, because the Death Stars both have the equivalent mass of billions of star destroyers. Since they were able to build the Death Stars they are able to build the equivalent number of star destroyers.

 

What I believed that you were implying, was that there would be Three Sector Groups comprised of X ships each, AND THEN and Over Sector Group that also had X ships.

 

What I see it as, is more like a Sector Group being the Platoon to the Over Sector Groups Company. Every X Sector Groups ARE an Over Sector that had to be managed by a Higher Rank.

 

Regional, oversectorial, and strategic command groups.

"Regional, oversectorial and strategic military commands existed as well, and came in a variety of mixed and homogenous forces."

 

Azure Hammer Command

 

Oversectors have their own fleets.

[Guest Ruinus]

Skirmisher said:

For one thing, Gorge Lucas himself stated how it was built, Droids. Yet the first one took almost two decades to be finished, probably because they didn't have the workforce in place. That they needed to make the droids as well as work in the DS in secret. After that they still had the Droid and construction on the DS2 was much faster, but when was it really started? Probably right after the last one blew up, that's still about 4 years and even then more than half of it was still unfinished, with who knows how much of the interior being covered by just a thin shell. After that the droids that were still working on the DS2 were gone, blown up, and the Empire could never recover them.

 

First Death Star construction.

"The project was dragged out over a nineteen year time period as labor union disputes along with the supply and design problems slowed the construction. Efforts were not helped by repeated; albeit usually unsuccessful; sabotage efforts. Actual effective work on the station took less than two years, and involved resources from every corner of the Empire being funneled to complete the project"

 

It wasn't a problem of not having enough people to build it, as you claim, but simply because the workers wanted more overtime, health benefits and coffee breaks! Also many people had to come in an revise the plans, as the article goes on to state:

 

"Of particular concern was the technology required to create the massive superlaser, the very heart of the weapon. To this end, Tarkin brought together some of the most brilliant minds of the galaxy (including Tol Sivron, Qwi Xux, and Bevel Lemelisk) and build a proof-of-concept model at Maw Installation. This model would eventually become known as the Death Star prototype."

 

So not only did they have to review the entire design, they had to build an entirely seperate one (although a stripped down version) as a proof of concept.

 

Also, read the second bolded part, actual work took only 2 years.

 

As for the Death Star II:

"Unlike the Empire's first Death Star, which, as a result of supply and design problems, took nineteen years to be considered an operational battlestation, this much larger Death Star took far less time, approximately two to four years, to construct. Methods of faster construction had been developed in the years since the original station's conception, added to the fact that Imperial engineers made sure to allocate enough space on the station for the maximum possible amount of self-replicating construction droids."

 

You should note that the Death Star II was much larger than the first at 900 km.

Also, a nice note that the Empire has self-replicating construction droids. I don't know why you claim they lost this technology though.

 

Quote

The conscripts would rebel it's in their nature, no regular civilian would want to stick their neck out.

 

Except the conscripts on the IoM's side right? They are courageous and brave while the Empire's aren't?

 

Quote

Lasgun: Strength 3, Effects on the human body: one medium-low setting was reported to have explosively evaporated a Mans arm from Collar bone to Elbow. That"s Strength 3 for you, and that"s what 40k"er jokingly call a Flashlight since that"s about how good they are against a Space Marines armour.

 

The Space Marine standard weapon, the Bolter: Strength 4, each round is a .75 calibre (20mm) armour piercing grenade, each one primed to penetrate up to a couple of inches before detonating. It fires like a modern day assault rifle on full auto, meaning 300-500 rounds per minute.

 

Special Weapons that they can take would be Plasmaguns: Strength 8, able to spew a large stream of plasma at their targets leaving completely incinerated and vaporised remains in the target zone.

 

Assault Cannon: Strength 6 but is noted for its extremely high rate of fire, with the number of rounds per second counted in the hundreds. The standard ammunition fired is a cased round, comprising a dense metallic core covered in a non-metallic composite sheath with a diamantine tip. It usually rends its targets to small meaty bits and has only moderate trouble putting tanks in their place.

 

I will leave you to ponder that.

 

WEG

BlasTech DL-16b Blaster Pistol

Skill: Blaster

Ammo: 100

Cost: 450 (power packs: 25)

Fire Rate: 1

Range: 3-10/25/100

Damage: 4D

 

Look at that, it does the same amount of damage as a bolter.

 

Or, you know:

A280 blaster rifle

"Though much heavier than Imperial-issue rifles such as the E-11, the A280 was a sturdy weapon and was reputed to be able to cut a fully-armored stormtrooper in half at medium range."

 

Assault cannon

 

E-webs

 

Disruptors

 

Thermal detonaros

"The result was an expanding particle field that could atomize any material that did not conduct heat or thermal energy within the fixed blast radius; typically five meters, though some had an even greater radius. Custom grenades could have a blast up to 100 meters."

 

Quote

No each and every one of the tens of hundreds of millions of worlds under the IOM pays a Teith or tax. That tax is whatever the planet can produce, be it Metal, Fuel, Food, Equipment, or even Men. They have to pay, and it is all to feed the Military, except the few million worlds that the Space Marines are allowed to govern, all their taxes go straight to the Space Marines who also benefit from being in the IOMs military.

 

No, I meant that you made it sound like the GE wouldn't be able to keep production going because it would tax it's resource stores ( was using tax in the "drain" sense) while the IoM would have happy go lucky infinite resource cheats and would never have the same problem.

 

BTW, taxes exist in the Star Wars galaxy too, so I don't know where you get this idea that they would run out of resources so fast.

[Guest Ruinus]

Recruitment, half of them were recruited, the otherhalf was cloned from various templates.

 

The Clones were better than some droids. To be sure, the B1s were pieces of crap, but B2s could fight clones more or less evenly. This is not counting heavy battle droids, tank droids, etc etc.

 

Also, again, I just love the way you assume all the bad stuff will happen to the GE army:

"Oh, the conscripts will retreat, surrender or run away scared!"

"The GE won't be able to keep up with resources! They'll go bankrupt!"

"The GE's soldiers will be green!"

 

And yet you don't assume the same for the IoM's conscripted force? Double standard much?

 

Quote

I find that number to be highly questionable.

 

B2 SBD

"Further orders were placed on worlds controlled by Baktoid and quadrillions of B2s were soon running off the assembly lines. Despite their advantages and ease of production, however, they were not manufactured as extensively as their inferior cousins, the B1s."

 

Droid Army:

Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections:

"What would ultimately become a Separatist army originally began as several immense forces comprised almost exclusively of droids. When merged, these formed a colossal army numbering in the quintillions."

 

Lord of War:

"With several quintillions of droids by the close of the Clone Wars, the number of robotic troops at his disposal played out in Grievous' imagination like a barely fathomable string of trinary code."

 

The Clone Army has to be on the similar scale to be able to fight such a force.

 

Quote

Besides, my previous statements covered my reasoning about Blaster Gas production. I also refer to it as Blaster Gas, because other gasses can be substituted for Tibanna Gas. The single fact that not everyone who has a modern weapon in the civilised Galaxy has a blaster, that some find it hard to get the gas for their weapons and all that. Not only that, but the whole Clone Wars was a joke, it was a staged battle fought across the Galaxy with Sidius pulling the strings. Who's to say that he didn't organise a stockpile of blaster gas, just for the war?

 

Except that your previous statement about blaster gas gave no reasonable assumptions as to why blaster gas would be hard to come by.

Not everyone has a blaster =/= not enough blaster gas. This is such a bad leap in logic that I can barely comprehend it, it is simply the case of not everyone wants to own a gun rather than not enough Vespene--- I mean blaster gas.

 

Prove now that Palpatine staged the entire logistics of the Clone War. Show that blaster gas is hard to come by, since the closest to your claim was this:

"On remote and barren worlds like Tatooine where blaster gas was in short supply, the people were forced to rely on more primitive forms of defensive weaponry."

 

Poor places like Tatooine not being able to afford blaster gas does not mean "blaster gas is hard to find."

 

Quote

That compared to the 150 Kilojoules that a standard weapon to Stormtroopers the E-11 can produce. Or even the fabled results of the fictional "High Powered" blasts.

 

Err... not only did that website get basic information wrong:

The E-11 is 49.2 cm in length, not 44.

The E-11 is 4.5 kg in weight, not 2.6.

The E-11 has a 500 shot capacity, not 100.

 

But the website also failed to show where it derived this firepower figure from. It couldn't get basic information right (which can be found with a 10 second search on Wookieepedia here, but it didn't even show it's work.

 

Quote

However these are not the standard issue to Stormtroopers, also of note, to attain such power they would invariably require much more amounts of Blaster Gas to operate in comparison to an E-11. Such supplies of blaster gas currently seem beyond the capabilities of the Empire, considering the fact that the Blaster is a major weapon in the galaxy, not every armed person has access to one, or the Gas to fire it.

 

Correct, the A280s could cut men in half at 150 meters. They are manufactured by BlasTech Industries, one of the top three arms manufacturers in the galaxy. Tell me, what is your reasoning to suppose that the Empire can not buy these weapons for their troops?

 

And there is that unfounded argument about a shortage of blaster gas. Again, simply because not everyone ones a gun means that they don't have enough blaster gas. Also, the only places were blaster gas is hard to come by is on the poor planets like Tatooine, where water is hard to come by.

 

Tell me Skirmisher, since not everyone owns a pet ant, does that mean that there are not enough ants to go around?

 

Quote

This would mean a full force of a quarter million Space Marines.

 

Against, what? A quadrillion clones, conscripts and droids?

[Guest Ruinus]

It took several volleys from it's bombardment cannons to produce tens of Petatons of explosive force, enough to fracture the crust of a planet all the way down to the mantel, from just hitting one spot.

 

Therefore since several Vollies produced that much energy then one volley at Strength 8 would only produce at or around Petatons level explosive force. Considering the fact that it can launch several volleys in under a minute means that if it were to face a Super Stardestroyer it would pwn it in a couple of minutes.

 

It went all the way down to the mantle? How are you sure about that?

 

Also:

Venator-class Star Destroyer

"As a true warship, the Venator-class Star Destroyer could divert almost all of its reactor output to its heavy turbolasers when needed."

 

So, all that is left is getting the reactor output. The Star Wars: Complete Cross-Sections lists this as "Peak: 3.6E24 W" After this we do some simple math:

 

1 megaton = 4.18E15

VSD reactor output funneled through guns = 3.6E24

 

3.6E24

-------- = 860,420,650.1 megatons = 860 teratons per shot.

4.18E15

 

Also:

Munificent-class Star Frigate

"The twin turbolaser cannon was powerful enough to melt an ice moon measuring 1,000 km in diameter or pierce the shields of a 10 km-wide Grade III battle station."

 

Using this calculator and putting in the required number, the result under Melt and Ice is listed as 6.620E+7gigatons. That, after converting, is a hilarious 66.20 petatons. Of course, to be honest, this is only after a charge up time of 45 minutes using capacitors.

 

Also note that both of these ships are outdated by 20 years by the time of the Galactic Empire.

 

I still don't know why you are using game numbers though.

[Guest ricrery]

Plus, Battle Barges have the Nova Cannon which is 22 petatons, barely anything in SW can top that. Oh, I'm sorry, everything above a Cruiser has the Nova Cannon!

[Skirmisher]

I've started to try and pare down our arguments so that it down's end up growing bigger, so some of your quotes will be cut or merged.

 

It's not ambigous at all.

"Navigation computer calculates our arrival in Alderaan orbit at oh two hundred."

He didn't say we'd arrive the next day (in the morning, as you propose), or at night (which would be meaningless to Luke and Obi, since saying "We'll arrive at their nighttime doesn't tell them how long the trip takes.)

Saying, we'll arrive at 0200 means "We'll arrive at 2AM OUR time."

 

EVEN IF it's 0200 the next day, it still shows that hyperdrive can cross the galaxy in a day or two, which proves this:

I challenge the myth that Star Wars hyper drives can travel the length of the galaxy in hours or days

to be flat out wrong.

Ok, went and found what you were talking about (~6:00). In it we see Han walk into the main hold from the Cockpit and says that they are going to arrive at Allderan at 0200. The Time from when they jumped to Hyperspace to then is not determined in any way, except that Luke has shown marked improvement in Lightsaber Deflection against the Training Remote. You would think that Obi Wan would have given him some training so that Luke wouldn't kill himself with a simple mistake. And time to at least get as good as he was shown to be. Even though he still wasn't that good, from what we see he is still better than what he would have been just starting out. This kind of stuff takes awhile, because it's not everyday you learn to block energy bolts with a thin shaft of light.

 

They were in orbit over Nelvaan, a planet in the Outer Rim.

 

They arrive crazy fast, since Greivous had just left on his shuttle and only had enough time to dock aboard the Invisible Hand and secure Palpatine to the chair on the observation deck.

It's funny, Boston said that Continuity would come into question. Here it is: The First Star Wars: Clone Wars cartoon is not listed in what is now considered T-Canon, the one that sits between G and C. This could be for many reasons, as the cartoon it self was more of an experimental promotion, and contained numerous clashes with Higher Canon sources, such as the exact date at which Anakin becomes a Jedi Knight, Many if not all the battles with Grievous, certain parts of the Battle of Courescant, just to name a few.

 

That clip that you posted as proof that they went from Nelvaan to Courescant in a matter of hours is therfore in valid, as it does not fit into the Continuity of Star Wars.

Quote from what is T-Canon Material:

 

"T-canon, or Television Canon, refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee"

 

Note that the only ones to fall under T are The Clone Wars Animated Film, The Clone Wars CGI Animated series set immediately after the film, and the proposed Live Action Series. No mention at all has been given to the original Non/Secondary-Canon cartoon series.

It wasn't even produced by Lucas Arts, rather it was Produced by Cartoon Network Studios, which further draws question to its validity.

 

Also there is another 88 episodes of the new, Canon series planed out that would invariably overlap and supersede the original Clone Wars cartoon, these ones would undoubtedly have Asoka in them, therefore making the original Clone Wars cartoons an alternate universe and non-canon.

 

So what is your claim then? Because originally you said:

As well, if their ships really did travel that fast then the whole of the Star Wars Galaxy would have bee thoroughly mapped millennia ago, yet I have seen canon sources state that the vast majority of the galaxy still remains unmapped.

 

So are you arguing that the galaxy is unmapped? (Which is false, and hence your original claim is wrong) Or that it is unexplored? (In which case, that may be true. I say may because there are various reasons why they may have never sent anyone to actually see, land on, or explore the star systems in detail.

I know what I originally said. My original statements saying that they weren't mapped were meant in that they had no-one go out there and map them, not that they were in the charts and databases. I had then changed my statements to "Explored" rather than "Mapped" in a refinement of my original Idea.

 

We can't, but they can.

The thing is, why would they want to? What incentive is there for them to do so? Travel there is hard, it is probably cost-ineffective, and the governments that exist there probably have little to no resources, technology, or whatever to trade.

 

So again:

Simply because they can go there doesn't mean they want to.

I'm not saying that everyone in the Republic/Empire would want to go exploring. But if even 0.00001% of the population of these empires has ‘that old Explorers Itch" and if even 0.00001% of them had access to FTL ships. Then according to the Galactic Census with a population of 100 quadrillion different sentient life forms that would still mean that there would be around Ten Million Explorers out there with FTL capable ships. Plying space like the prospectors and adventurers of old, and that's just This generation of explorers, what about the Thousands of Generations that came before? At the Speeds you say that Hyperspace achieves, then the Entirety of the Star Wars Galaxy would Have to have been explored in every aspect centuries before Palpatine was even born. But wait, if the Ships never actually could travel at those speeds, then that would make sense as to why vast regions of the galaxy remain unexplored.

 

Here's a quote to back me up the Merchant Mungo Baobab talking about life in the Star Wars Galaxy.

"Galaxy upon galaxy. Vast, unexplored realms of space. It is a wild, untamed universe we live in. There is much danger here and therefore much need for armies, generals, and soldiers. But along with those who wage war there is also much need for those who explore new worlds and make possible the exchange of knowledge and goods... who bring civilization."

 

A quarter of the galaxy? By no stretch of the imagination does that picture look like it takes up "a quarter of the galaxy."

 

 

 

The page on the UR says that it takes up 15% of the galaxy's volume. It specifically mentions part of this being the galactic halo, which have little amounts of stars in them. It also clearly states that many of the star systems were mapped.

 

So again, your original claim that the galaxy was largely unmapped is wrong.

Your claim that the galaxy is unexplored is half-right and wrong. It is unexplored by the major polities of the galaxy, it is not unexplored by the people who live there.

As stated in the Wiki the Star Wars Galaxy it is most likely a Sb type Galaxy as shown in the pic below. Unknown Region would be about where I marked that red line.

 

Besides, From what I can see of the Star Map, it's not as if that Whole Side of the Galaxy is devoid of any sort of place to explore. And as a rule of Nature all galaxies are somewhat uniformly spread out in mass, unless irregular (But then it wouldn't appear anything like the Star Wars galaxy). I would say that the Galaxy would have to be balanced and that there would probably be just as many stars out in the unknown region as that are on the other side of the galaxy. But let's compromise and say around 50-60 Billion Stars are out there in that area of Space.

 

So it may only cover 15% of the Volume of the Galaxy but inside of that Volume would be packed with Star systems.