baneblade

The 'don't hurt civilians' point is moot the instant you recall Superman vs Doomsday. (any day, Hulk has more 'empathy' than DD). With those stats and match, Superman still wins.

Aang. As of season 1 of Korra: More experience, better control and maneuverability and a 'feat list' that can only be compared once Korra goes into the 3rd, or 4th (or whatever is the last) season. As of the present, there should be no doubt, Aang, quite easily too.

Bane

Darkseid

Adding to something Sirmethos already, mostly ably, stated: Superman is known to blow away a planet devouring fulyl expanded Braniac with one blow when powered by the sun's core. He will do just that, if he has to in this fight: fly right through the sun. In that, his durability, his speed, his strength, increases manifold. That is not even funny, when we consider stats and actual figures. I am not saying that it will be a 'ham n' egger', but it will happen this way, if it has to. Simply put: Superman's level headed, in proximity to a solar source, and better experienced. There will be a battle, albiet one that will end with Superman winning here.

That is why Redemption Bro, I mentioned experience among other things. I wholly agree brute strength does not cut it. Superman's ability to wage battle comes not from strength alone, but from using it effectively. From what I know, he is a much much smarter 'fighter' than Surfer. Surfer is a head on fighter, who will, with the luxury of those few seconds, add in a bit of improvisation here and there. Superman breathes improvisation, in spite of his limited 'power-set' in comparison to Surfer. He is a more effective combatant, plain and simple. That is why, I repeat myself, Powergirl will lose. She is not as shrewd or battle smart as Superman, and usually lets her 'marbles' spin even before she is in the thick of the fight. Not saying she is stupid, (certainly knew better to wear a distracting outfit), but she is gullible on many levels, and those precious few seconds Surfer will have to improvise are likely to come about.

The 'cosmic awareness' works when Surfer is at 'his level headed best'. With a panicky schedule he probably won't get to imply it, a scenario we have seen all too often in his story lines. Hence, kindly refrain from the 'its a given Surfer will beat someone like Superman'. No he won't. We have been through so many times on various posts on these boards that it is almost taboo, that a grey area is reached almost immediately. My take is more realistic, and has been implied in the comics: Surfer's reactions, implications of abilities and subsequent win, or loss come along with the other traits of his character: fallibility, doubt, hesitance etc. Due to these factors, among others, I sincerely believe Superman will have Surfer on the ropes, if not downright beat. Saying that Surfer will just trump him is denying all the losses Surfer has suffered against far less experienced and powerful opponents. Also, saying that he has this ability and that, and yet looking away from his severely limited and pacifist character traits is only denying the depicted publishing history on purpose. However, the match is not Superman vs Surfer, but PG vs Surfer. While Power Girl can take him aback initially, she will not win because she is not to good on aversion, opponent gauging, and as stated ably by others, far less in experience than Superman. Her most debilitating factor will be her over confidence. She will underestimate Surfer, and she will fall right into his 'ability set'. Surfer for the win.

The Kingdom Come Superman: - Withstood engineered bomb specifically designed to take out heroes, within direct range - Punched the current earth Superman so hard that he couldn't stop himself, and KC Superman realised what he did, and flew over to stop him before he landed on anything - Jay/Flash stated KC is as fast as Wally. - Withstood Starman's full gravitational powers, along with a body load of JASers and easily shrugged them off - Tore a black hole as her flew into 'our' reality. Of course, all this is before the 52 reboot. Current Superman, and probably some other 'over powered' versions just don't hold anything to up this guy. His speed alone (catching Superman after punching him?) and his durability speak volumes of what he would do to WWH.

KC Supes

Red Hulk is billed to have a 'very' key ability, but there his lack of total control of that stacked up power to the point of exploding that makes me ask: why bother giving him the ability in the first place? Anyhows, SPB wins this.

Sorry bro. Not accepting your PIS argument. Fact: Galactus has BEEN OUTSMARTED, BEATEN and OUTCLASSED BY LESSER (FF). If I give any tandem the chance against him, solely on the context, and based on past experience and history, its Thanos and Seid. Your statement 'they won't outsmart him with tons of planning and I mean years' goes against history, and feats. Sorry, they WILL BEAT HIM ANOTHER TIME THEY MEET. Galactus at the core, is Gallen, a being with fallibility', hence Kirby's statement years ago, that he could make mistakes and has. Thanos has history with him, and knows him, and coupled with Seid, I will give them a chance. I am not saying they are winning this match. They will lose this fight, and escape, leaving Apokilips, solely because they have no time to develop a contingency. He is upon them. Galactus will trounce here. Another time, and another meet, like I suggested in my earlier post will be different. They will in fact, track him. and somehow, dupe him into devouring something he is not supposed to. He is composed of 'energies'. They play with that card like the back of their hand. No, not accepting there is no way they beat him. Accepting they lose here, but you seem to be only (along with a few other bros.) pushing the envelope a bit too much. As for your points about the heralds, it is common opinion, the most outstanding is Surfer, a being stated (like Sentry and a few other Marvel characters) as having powers over the top, but little to show for it and a whole lot of excuses when it comes to fallibility. Sorry, history, and feats and opponent quality does not illustrate either, how the 'heralds' will definitely trounce Seid alone, leave alone Seid and Thanos. In a capsule: We get the point, Galactus wins this match. Another meet, might be different, and that is purely speaking published history-wise, feat-wise, more than anything, that speaks volumes.

To address bro Leroy's concerns: The Setup plain puts Seid and Thanos in a corner. Realistically, they would know 'eons' before something the magnitude of Galactus shows up, but per the setup, well, he's home for dinner without an invitation. Now, next in line to this scenario, Seid and Thanos' victory lies in a consolation win: A hasty exit is of course, in order, but they will leave traceable signatures with which to see Galactus' course next. They will get back to him, and outsmart him, eventually. But this fight, is as good as gone. Plus, Seid has been known to 'forfeit' his belongings in interest of greater pursuits, an idea that will click in his head instantly the moment he sees Galactus. Galactus for the win here.

I do not know bro, if the Hell Fire Club 'spar' is actually a win. Basically, one of their own blew the 'hell' out of the club to escape and knocked both Wolverine and his then standing opponent into the middle of next week. More than that, in both these instances, I still don't see these guys as credible opponents as Flash or Green Lantern. I also do not see them posing the threat in the time frame, that Zatanna, Flash or Lantern would. They are mostly melee fighters, with mad-ons to trounce, rather than coherent, articulate fighters that effect powers like Flash or Lantern. True all characters make mistakes, especially when in the heat of battle, but I would give Flash and Lantern leverage over your cited characters any day. Plus, the Hell Fire Club thing is doubtful as a credible win. True, he got em', but one of them still stood, and even had time to effect a salvo knocking Rine and his opponent silly. An OK example but one that still doesnot match time-wise, battle cred wise to the Stroke fights. Check out even the instance when Stroke battles the Titans members, with Nightwing in the lead. Stroke merely shifts his frame by fractions of an inch, apperaing as if still standing, to let one of the most credible fighters, Batgirl lose her coherence and fall flat on her back. That is something I am hinting at in the fight we are debating on. Stroke avoided a fighter who lives to mimic body language and chart movements accordingly, on the fly, not with prep. Wolverine's movements in berserker mode or otherwise, have hardly been this articulate and calculated. He is a land and hit kind of guy, not an avert, capitalize, and then hit fella. (Mostly). I am sorry that we are in the grey zone of discussion, where you see it one way, and I see it another. In that case, if the next post unveils it like so, we will call it a day in our discussion, since we will only be going in circles from there on.

G'day Echo. I know what Zatanna or Lantern will do when they get to use their power. The key is, in the implications of the fight. It only depicts what Stroke does impeccably. Now, we finally step into another area of discussion: You state that Wolverine would do the same thing, yet there is no evidence in comic history of him ever accomplishing this, that is; barricading an opponent's use of power, leave alone barricading multiple opponents. Thing is, Echo, it seems, most brothers or fellow ferretters here have a notion, that character and ability can be separated. They can not. Perhaps you already know this. In that regard, Wolverine is 'mostly' not a level headed fighter, specially when he is agitated. We have seen it in the comics. Hook is when he is in his 'berserker mode', he has never faced an opponent who (usually) keeps his cool in the heat of battle, and who is absolutely precise in his execution. It is not about the powers and fighting skills only, it is about routine execution. If Stroke could stop a faster, or a more powerful opponent before he gets to use that ability, it is a feat I would associate with Stroke more than I would with Batman. More on this in my reply to Comic Book fan.

Gotta go know brothers all. Will check back in tomorrow in case there are more posts.

- Hmmm. Care to mention what I stated that 'intentionally aggravated you'? You are the one who resorted to the insults first, from what I can see, or understand. If I did say something, that ticked you off in the wrong manner, please let me know in your reply post. As for you hitting a nerve, no you didn't. Yes, the name calling is unacceptable. There are folks who resort to it right through posts and I can't stop them or reason enough with them, but just move on to the next post. As for 'bro', yup I just like to use it. Don't know why it is so out of expectation or place in the new world, but it is meant to impart respect. Some folks don't want it. So, I try to remember and not call them that anymore. Hope you don't mind it. As for mistaking you for someone else, don't worry, I am not mistaken. - Hulk being downed by gas, Galactus getting the boot, Thanos imprisoning celestials, Seid beating the Source, Superman withstanding Seid, all PIS, but all that I accept. It seems you are fighting yourself here. You seem to go through the round of reading a book, and be at loggerheads with yourself if you do not accept the PIS. I personally feel that with Magneto's powers, Wolverine has no fighting chance in hell, yet another brother has just cited Wolverine's list of opponents with Magneto in it. Reason is simple: PIS allows all sorts of things. The smartest thing to do, inspite of citing it as PIS, is to accept it as it is a part of comic history. It is published, in the annals, and done. - No a 5 yr. old won't know where an adam's apple, or solar plexus, or tendons are. Maybe a very few of them who grew up on 'taped pillow sleeping sessions' Mostly won't. A credible fighter, however, who has the reflexes to act on an other's, and improvise on the go, will. As for your argument of Wolverine's fighting skills matching upto Slade's, I am damn sure many folks on this forum think otherwise, and I have (subjectively speaking) seen it also. That there, though is the grey area we are debating on aren't we?

- So, if the creator is giving some 'semblance' to a confusing or tangled layout, it isn't canon. To me it is. He is not exactly 'twisting the tale into something else', merely explaining what his logic was. I agree with him wholly. Unless, one creator's barrage clashes with another's on the same subject, it is pretty much standard, to me. - Allow me to state the sequence per scribe again: Stroke relied mostly on their reluctance, and confusion, after the sudden salvo. While I don't buy his PIS that Lantern saw his comrades fall within seconds, and got 'conflicted' in the heat of the moment, I have to go with it. It could also be real. Lantern's human at the core after all. Hence, Rayner was only temporarily 'overwhelmed' (the word use to describe his state) by seeing his team falling like cards, in the matter of seconds, and didn't react in a balanced way. Taking this cue, I am re-stating that Wolverine can not fall them like a pack of cards in seconds. I just don't see it happening. That is why I asked you about his experience in fighting a group, in which he fell them in seconds. There is none. - That is why I tried to remind everyone on the posts that Stroke usually plays it safe, and lets the smallest of body movements work wonders. He would not see himself 'paining' Wolverine to submission, but he will see himself 'knocking him out' by one of many possible methods. - Folks rivaling Zatanna's powers? She effects (or is billed to effect) realities and things with a word, only said backwards, an art she has mastered in time. There is nothing virtually, more powerful than that. Again, there is that grey area and a new door we are opening. Lets not do that. The part where you state that Wolverine would take her out, if he knew she spoke the spells, while dealing with Flash and Lantern? Sure. Not happening in this universe it ain't. That's my thought. - Wolverine has been known to take on stronger, more powerful opponents (Hulk?), not smarter ones, speaking in terms of fight reliability. Stroke has. Plus, you keep ignoring the fact, that even the folks you mentioned on the list can not utilize more than half their brain to effect the results Stroke gets with minimal effort. Its about the brains right there, not just beastly brawn.

Hey bro Lone Wolf. - Hmm, seems it is either I, or the agitation is random. Accusing me of being a fanboy, when I respectfully stated instances where Captain America downed Hulk on more than one occasion, using 'pressure points'. Is Cap or Hulk DC or Marvel? If you didn't check that out, please do so again. - I stated, adding to above, that Batman downing Hulk in that year of 1981, was not so much of an anomaly, as it would be now. Batman yet, used extraneous things like knock-out gas to slow him down. Cap simply downed him in both his unintelligent, and intelligent forms. That feat is even more of a stretch. You didn't look at that part and went straight to name calling eh bro? - Pressure points: Hmmm. Always works, if one gets to use it. You see, bro, you are mixing reality with comics. No need for it. I personally know, that if someone with the strength of Cap tries to toss Hulk, no matter he uses 'pressure points', it won't work. In the comic tales, Cap used 'pressure points' to make Hulk unstable, then manhandled him. What was so hard to understand here? I never said 'comprehend', I only said 'understand'. As for PIS, didn't I say that I don't accept PIS, but eventually HAVE to accept it? Back to pressure point. Once, in a session, my cousin of all people, had me down and was trying to wedge an elbow to my throat chest area. Seemingly while I was done an' exhausted, just as he moved a bit to position himself better for the right elbow and left hand, I saw him propped on his footing, and delivered a near effortless nudge to his achilles' and back of knee area, instantly making him tumble to one side on his ass, from there I at least survived. It is a small experience, but it is there regardless. Yes, in reality when fighters square off, there guards are so high, that such maneuverability will be nearly impossible if not minimal. However, you just can't simply discard what was in the comic book because you think it is not acceptable. It was Marvel that did it, not DC. At least place the blame where it belongs bro. - That bit with what Wolverine's taken and what not, we all know it. Even casual comic fans know it. Let me attempt this again: DS doesnot need to 'ground and pound', or blow away or dismember Wolverine. I repeat, all he needs is a few well placed movements and strikes to the heart area, to cut off that precious blood supply to the brain, to merely knock him out. I said, he did it in the 'non-canon' book, a'la JLA, ans he is likely to do it here again. You and Echo are both undermining Slade's battle smarts to a degree that is almost close to negligible. That is not cool. - Wolverine walking away from the battle is most likely bro, after he wakes up.

You first Echo. - Good to see our references are becoming narrowed. - So, you only pointed out certain facts. Cool. I apologize then, for mistaking your statement. - Good to see you list all those folks Wolverine tangoe'd with. You came so strong with them, I appreciate it. My underlying question was not who he's faced: If I didn't phrase it properly, I will do it again. There should be a reference where he faced multiple opponents, at the same time, equaling, if not trumping the abilities of Zatanna, Green Lantern and Flash, at one time. The outcome should also have at least one pin fall style win, if not complete win. That is, to give benefit of doubt. - Non- canon or not good sir, I have already explained my stance on this. I know we are in a grey area right there, but a grey area nonetheless. Lets just say there are others on this very post, like bro Lone Wolf, who also acknowledge this fact. - Them 'acting retarded' is per our opinion, not the chief scribe's. Meltzer was pelted with questions literally even before the arc folded. He gave his reasons. I am not saying I am buying them, I am only saying I have to go with them.

Hmmm. 'Wrong facts with EVERY argument I make'. Again, direct, incorrect, and vague statements meant to perhaps insult than substantiate something. Even if it was a remote fact that some facts could be wrong,, saying that I state incorrect facts with 'every argument' is pretty vague. Respect your opinion though, and won't comment in kind. Wrong facts such as? - DS has faced teamups routinely? - Has more use of his brain as an ability than improvisation, which counts for something, and which you have been ignoring? - Is a more articulate fighter, and better 'improvising' tactician than Wolverine? Wolverine's other feats, like facing off multiple super power opponents: Wolverine has beaten Hulk? Yes. Surprised you didn't call that PIS. He did get the win once, via Hulk dropping into a gas line and passing out.That is one fight in which he 'won'. Mostly others, here was either a grey area or a loss. - Beating Fist a feat compared to Stroke vs Batman? Grey area. I do not agree. - Fist better than Bats: I do not agree - Kindly give me instances where Wolverine faced off multiple super powered opponents. Please make sure the reference isn't lame. Example: Usually Flash and Lantern would mow down an army of opponents. Give me a feat or stat equal to that, or even something like Cyborg, Changeling, Raven or Starfire, on the same team. - Wolverine vs Punisher. Hmmm. Here's one example: http://www.comicaddicts.com/2010/09/wolverine-vs-punisher.html For your other arguments: - You say, DS had prior knowledge and Invisible Woman would wipe the floor with the JLA members, with the same knowledge. As direct as you are, you are still missing the whole point. IW is 'superpowered', has long range battle ability. DS does not. It makes his feat pretty impressive. Nay, more impressive. - I never said DS didn't have prior knowledge. After all, they live and fight in the same universe. Its common sense more than it is common ground. Again, you are completely either missing the point wholly on purpose, or in the dangerous grey zone where you do not want to look at it: DS improvised in part pre-fight, and in part during fight. That is damn impressive, given there's Flash and Lantern in the mix. - Technically, no crossovers are canon. Marvel put up their nose and denied the JLA/Avengers crossover as canon, only after initially stating it was canon. Owe it to the nosey back end folks for that drastic change. DC still stated it as canon. Hence, a 50/50 thing. Again, missing the whole point. Saying it was non-canon, but still seeing the battle happened in the same 'lines' defined in comics continuity could open a little room for common perception. I see past the barricades. You don't, that's your choice. Sorry, in a straight up fight, I do not see Wolverine taking out Stroke. In a series of fights, he might land some lucky ones, and rack up a win or two, after a long series of fights. DS still wins.

Sorry bro. Seems you either missed the comic, or forgot about it. DS = Batman, is not a small statement, if that is what you were implying. Wolverine = DD, Punisher could work, but just doesn't. DD's had his instances, and Punisher almost always had his with Wolverine, embarrassing the hell out of him. To make a point moot, or add to it, Deathstroke has dropped Batman, convincingly, one on one, sans prep, and without aid. He takes on multiple opponents routinely, ones with super powers, Wolverine doesnot. He is more 'adjusted' to expect the worst that Wolverine. Again, the non-canon argument. There are crossovers written for the sake of crossovers. But there are others, well crafted. Titans/X-men was one of the better outings. Sorry, you are just turning the other way, even though the events and the fight match up perfectly with what Slade does routinely. I am only doing the match. Adds up nicely. You could choose to turn the other way, but that doesnot make the published fact go away. As for Batman 'beating hulk'? Sorry bro, but that's the way characters were written at the time. There was nothing, nothing out of context in that story. That was an 81' tale. Captain America, who has been deemed Batman's physical equal, in terms of physicality, inspite of the serum, has dropped Hulk before, both in the early 80s, (or late 70s,) and in the mid 90s. He did it with his fighting skills too, utlizing pressure point knowledge to Hulk off his footing. Batman, during that tale, in the silver era, did nothing more, and in fact, had to resort to gas to weaken Hulk before knocking him out. Sorry, but again, that tale had nothing horrendously out of place, anything more than Marvel themselves did with Hulk by having him drop to Cap, or others. You argument there is moot bro. To Force Echo: You state that Invisible woman would drop JLA, but added a very crucial thing yourself, limiting that statement : 'if she had cursory knowledge about them'. Invisible Woman has powers, and can effect them from a long range. Although I do not agree she will drop them, (seeing her previous outings with more 'incoherent' villains), you yourself state that 'knowledge' of their powers will help her take them down. So can Bats, or Ghul, or others, who had prior 'knowledge'. You are introducing a whole new scenario here, one of intense pre-planning. Slade did not have that luxury, plus he is not endowed with long range powers. That only makes his feat more impressive. True, he expected them, but didn't have a day to lay out a plan. In fact, per Brad Meltzer, he did it in a short frame, and laid out several contingencies. he also didn't know the exact members who were coming. Which means, that once he was on the street, he improvised those contingencies in part, according to their expected actions, and in part right off the fly. That makes the feat (whether classified as PIS or not) more impressive. Sorry, Lonewolf's argument is still not valid. Again: Points you should/could agree on: - DS has dropped Bats in one on one on the fly combat - Routinely taken on super powered teams. Again, you could purposefully turn your head away from this, accuse it if being PIS, but it can not be discounted. It is routine, has been on paper, and it stands. It is a feat Wolverine still has to show, if he can get past being embarassed by Castle first, pull a lack luster outcome with DD or Cap. Lets remember, DD doesnot have long range powers like Invisible Woman, who you folks are trying to push in regards to being able to accomplish the same feat of dropping JLA members - Thinks way ahead of Wolverine, DD or Punisher in terms of contingency, in heat of combat. Even if you refute this, you can not refute that he has the ability to use more of his brain than any other character mentioned on the list. - Has dropped Wolverine on paper before, a feat you could take or turn your head away from, but which I just can not ignore, and which is in perfect tandem, a decade later almost, with what Stroke does on and off. I will throw in a few extras here too. DD has a healing factor of his own, which only means, with his aversion skills, he will last just long enough, to pull out the most crucial straws in this fight. Sorry, while you have tried to substantiate Wolverine's accomplishments going into this fight, your claim, that he is 'unstoppable, feels no pain, etc.' still does not show him dropping to a well placed pressure hit, or a strike to the heart or the jugular, to slow him down, or just put him to sleep. My simple bet, if it happened with an opponent far inferior in H2H to Slade, it will most certainly happen here. Even if I do not drum up that argument, just the stats alone work against wolverine. Slade will win this in what we will call Flawless Victory.

Keeping in view the setup, Galactus will win this. The only consolation Seid and Thanos will get will be a hasty exit.

If I faced an opponent in hand to hand in an impromptu Ju Jitsu match, who outweighed me, and was faster than me; would I be slated to lose that match? Perhaps. Now if I say, I would 'definitely lose that match, that would be wrong. Perhaps I would play my opponent better than he plays me, inspite of his physical advantages outweighing mine. Perhaps I would feign a hip toss movement, yet make into a hip toss/ arm lock, or stretch things with a compound movement, making it all into a triangle coke, etc. Brother mine, we are walking in a gray area here, not black and white. Black white would say I would lose, and I Deathstroke would lose, as would a host of many other characters. That is what comic writers do bro, place these gray lines for us, and then use them to effect PIS, and draw out these impossible wins. Example: How can Spiderman beat a guy one on one who has all of his powers, and can sense his approach and is immune to his most potent tool, the spider-sense? I say the answer is in those grays, and most of all, in the difference of how they have been shown to effect their powers. So why did Spiderman beat Sandman, Rhino and the Sinister Six? Brains bro. He was more resourceful, and smarter. At least that is what his scribes have been pushing in his victories many a time. Stroke thinks waaaay ahead and is waaaaay smarter bro. If you pour through those panels again, he said 'different mask, same mistakes'; I never said he beat their speed, or their power. He just didn't allow them the co-ordination and time to use them.That is why I have been repeating, no other character even this far into the posts has that 1 ability, that even Batman will have a hard time countering. Spiderman or FF were not 'born to fight' or think 10 steps ahead in the heat of battle. Slade does. How can you discount that fact? Lets logically take it all down a notch. You are saying the JLA angle is PIS. (I said whether it is or not, you simply can't make a conjecture against it, or simply sideline it. It stands as a feat). Would Slade take 3 opponents? Or two? Or 1 Wolverine? I know Wolverine t have been on the ropes with a less smarter opponent. Castle, DD, Shaw, for eg. Slade is waaay smarter than them, has the inane ability to improvise on the fly, and knows pressure points that Wolverine obviously didn't take the time to become knowledgeable in, given the comic tales. Plus, the added disadvantage that he has gone nuts going into the attack works against him. Slade will see that he can't hurt him, nor slow him, and will also see that he is fighting in a fit, to only shorten the fight. Slade will improvise, lure him into that window of that marginal advantage that he has, and strike a staff into his heart, or solar plexus, or jugular veins, to either slow him down or but that precious blood supply to the brain. I am not saying that is what is likely to happen. I am only saying, given their tendencies, their opponents, and their feats, that is the way it definitely will happen.

Yup, you are the bro I was referring to. I guess I didn't make myself that clear, perhaps in more ways than one. The key is not in mentioning a match that has PIS written all over it. The key is in determining what was done, even in that PIS ridden match. Did Wolverine beat the FF? That is, Invisible woman included, with all her abilities as you have mentioned here and which we all know. If he did take down Invisible woman, who could take out all those JLA members according to you, with relative ease, and he also did the same, all at one time to the Thing, and Torch, then could you please mention how he did it? - Did he beat them all? - Did he fight just to a standstill? - Was he beaten? Again, you did mention the Galactus and Wolverine (vs.) issue as PIS, but I didn't see it that way. In fact, it was a good issue, that showed just what Galactus truly is. Technically, Wolverine didn't even get to spar with him. I don't recall each and every detail, and if there is something credible that Wolverine actually did in there, that involved directly confronting Galactus, then inspite of it being PIS, I would like to know of it. As I said, it was a while ago I read it. Hence brother, even if you state PIS and cite the reference behind it, even if for comparison to another PIS angle, the reference has to have abilities that cut the opposite ability set. If there isn't anything like that, the reference is useless. I will again remind you, that Stroke has on paper, in a cross over, beaten Wolverine. If you will call than PIS, you could, but you can cannot argue it happened, was agreed upon by talent of both DC and Marvel, and it will always stand as a reference, from my broad view of all things comic. That's my 2 cents bro.

This bro, has been discussed before, in spades. It was a fight that not only put Stroke on the map, or rather, helped him reemerge as a major fighting villain, but was the talk of the comic goers' worldwide. See, call it PIS or not, Metlzer made it believable (from his end anyways) by stating, that he fight in the matter of a few seconds. Stroke used Flash' resiliency, Zatanna's hesitation, Hawkman's mad on fury, Arrow's (comparatively) inadept hand to hand, Ralph's mad on attack, Atom's poor timing and Lantern's confusion against them well, all in the matter of a few seconds. If you see it in that time frame, then perhaps, it is possible, in comic terms. After all, Stroke uses more of his brain in the heat of combat than any f the other people in this entire post, period. I mentioned this bro, specifically, that do not undermine, or under estimate that ability. It is what really makes Deathstroke dangerous. By the by, there were no 'noobs' in that line up. Again, it is quite surprising, that you would simply discard the entire lineup just like that, where this lineup, whilst not having the big three, is still powerful enough in regards to co-ordination, experience, and even power set. (Re-stating that having Flash and Lantern on the same team would mow down an army of opponents, leave alone one opponent). Bro, you simply just can't discard this feat! Wolverine taking on FF is not as impressive a feat as this JLA line up. Any FF lineup would have their hands full with em'. As you yourself state; Zatanna doesn't even need to be down there. Wholly agree. Only thing is, she was just there at the wrong place at the wrong time. Plus, what happened when Logan faced em'? Did he drop em? Did he just drop, or did he pull a commendable draw? Lets hear it on this one as well. You are leaving a lot of loose ends there bro: A : Wolverine vs Galactus. I read the issue. You though, have cited it as a reference, to give Logan leverage. So, is the leverage there or not? Is there something about the issue I don't understand that substantiates Logan's fight there? B : You still haven't commented on if that in any case, win, lose or draw, would be a major PIS. C : You also never acknowledged that Stroke is the more level headed, faster, articulate and 10 steps ahead fighter Sorry bro, as of this post, Stroke fairly, still takes this one.