Rumble 14503 Superman vs. Son Goku

[Bergy_Berg]

I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to. I thought the first post was obvious enough.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

You underestimate the obliviousness of the people of Electricferret.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Sirmethos and I are just messing around, check out the Apocalypse vs Alucard match guys!

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Here you go

 

RULES

1. Goku is in SSJ4 form. 
2. Goku is wearing a "Bleeding Edge" level suit of combat armor built by the Capsule Corp. to Bulma's specs. 
3. Goku has fused to SSJ4 Vegeta and SSJ4 Brolly (with his personality in full control). 
4. For this fight, Superman is only at the level of power he demonstrated in his debut in 1938.

5. Before the fight, Goku is given a full set of "Superman: The Golden Age Omnibus" that details Superman's powers and weaknesses. 
6. After finishing his reading, Goku is given a week of prep (no asking others for help). 
7. The fight takes place in Central Park at nighttime. 
8. No BFR is allowed and Superman cannot launch an attack that Goku cannot possibly dodge 
9. Victory is achieved by either KO or death. 

[Bergy_Berg]

Here you go

 

RULES

 

1. Goku is in SSJ4 form.

2. Goku is wearing a "Bleeding Edge" level suit of combat armor built by the Capsule Corp. to Bulma's specs.

3. Goku has fused to SSJ4 Vegeta and SSJ4 Brolly (with his personality in full control).

4. For this fight, Superman is only at the level of power he demonstrated in his debut in 1938.

5. Before the fight, Goku is given a full set of "Superman: The Golden Age Omnibus" that details Superman's powers and weaknesses.

6. After finishing his reading, Goku is given a week of prep (no asking others for help).

7. The fight takes place in Central Park at nighttime.

8. No BFR is allowed and Superman cannot launch an attack that Goku cannot possibly dodge

9. Victory is achieved by either KO or death.

It feels like I've already seen this a few times...

[Venom 2009]

Could we just make this into a Rap Battle...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbUjRo0--eQ

[kainboa]

If Superman can hear that well and react that fast, and move that fast how is the following possible?

Batman launching him via judo throw

Anything on Earth hitting him, I mean he is 10010101 times faster than light, what is a missile, gun shot, punch, etc going to do, yet these things have all hit him and even more times when people catch him by surprise. I do not mean they tricked him, I mean they snuck up behind him and punched him or attacked him.

 
If you don't answer PIS or Plot Devices, or that it was another universe and still have a valid reason why he can be that powerful and be so vulnerable at the same time, I will concede.

 

Two different reasons, first one is Superman mentally limiting himself, for fear of killing his opponent, which in this case will be removed rather quickly, when Goku proves that he's capable of dealing and handling a sufficient level of force.

Second one is shitty writers who doesn't have the imagination to write stories about Superman without having him be extremely limited.

 

In a short phrase, Comic Mechanics.

[Guest Kal2400]

just glad this is a rumble too much fighting would happen if it was a real match-up.

[Bergy_Berg]

just glad this is a rumble too much fighting would happen if it was a real match-up.

I considered doing it as a real match, but I didn't want someone to actually stab me through the internet.

[Guest force_echo]

Human reflexes are many times faster than a thrown dodgeball. But I guess dodgeball is pretty boring since no one ever gets hit.... Oh wait.

[Guest sirmethos]

Reflexes/Reaction Time = How long it takes from your brain registers that something is happening(i.e. that an action has to be taken) until you actually start performing that action.

 

While human reflexes are good enough, that they can generally start moving long(relatively speaking) before the ball hits them, the actual speed(movement speed) of humans are considerably slower than that of a thrown dodgeball.

 

As such, your analogy is totally and completely useless for the purposes of this match.  Since Superman is not just capable of reacting far faster, he is also capable of moving far faster than Goku(or goku's energy attacks).

[Guest force_echo]

You can't move your limbs/body faster than 5-10 miles per hour? Wow, looks like someone was in a fatal accident and had half of their body paralyzed. Also, you're completely wrong. Reflex speed is the time it takes to react to an outside stimulus, being that that's what REFLEXES ARE. It is not "how long it takes for your brain to register something is happening". Also, if your "actual movement" speed is slower than that of a dodgeball (again, incorrect) then you would ALWAYS be hit, unless the thrower misses. No, people can dodge dodgeballs, and they can get hit by dodgeballs. That's because even though humans easily have enough reaction time to dodge dodgeballs, in a "combat" situation people make mistakes due to the amount of sensory input, they can get hit by things travelling much slower than they are. Comic Mechanics doesn't exist. It's called finding an explanation for your damn self. But that takes intelligence and effort.

[Guest sirmethos]

You can't throw a dodgeball faster than 5-10 miles per hour? 

 

Considering that a 12 year old(male) has an average throwing velocity(with a dodgeball) of roughly 35 MpH, I assume that you must be physically handicapped in some manner, or that the one that has done the throwing from which you measured the speed of the ball, was somehow handicapped.

 

 

Anyway, moving on to the next piece of stupidity:

 

"Comic Mechanics doesn't exist."

 

Oh really?

 

So you're telling me that the hero doesn't always win in the end(and by proxy, the villain loses)?

 

That someone who is important to the plot, will not defeat pretty much anyone who gets in his way, until the end of the storyline/arc?

 

Characters always use their powers to the extend that fits to their personality and skill?

 

I could keep going like this for a while, but most people will be getting the picture by now.

 

 

If two heroes meet, and they fight(which they usually do on their first meeting), 99% of the time, the hero of the comic will come out of the fight with the upper hand.  Regardless of whether or not the other hero would be more than capable of winning, if not for Comics Mechanics(the Hero of The Comic advantage).

 

 

There are plenty of things that have in-universe explanations, but there are just as many, if not more, that are solely due to Comics Mechanics.

[Guest force_echo]

You can't throw a dodgeball faster than 5-10 miles per hour? 

 

Considering that a 12 year old(male) has an average throwing velocity(with a dodgeball) of roughly 35 MpH, I assume that you must be physically handicapped in some manner, or that the one that has done the throwing from which you measured the speed of the ball, was somehow handicapped.

 

 

Anyway, moving on to the next piece of stupidity:

 

"Comic Mechanics doesn't exist."

 

Oh really?

 

So you're telling me that the hero doesn't always win in the end(and by proxy, the villain loses)?

 

That someone who is important to the plot, will not defeat pretty much anyone who gets in his way, until the end of the storyline/arc?

 

Characters always use their powers to the extend that fits to their personality and skill?

 

I could keep going like this for a while, but most people will be getting the picture by now.

 

 

If two heroes meet, and they fight(which they usually do on their first meeting), 99% of the time, the hero of the comic will come out of the fight with the upper hand.  Regardless of whether or not the other hero would be more than capable of winning, if not for Comics Mechanics(the Hero of The Comic advantage).

 

 

There are plenty of things that have in-universe explanations, but there are just as many, if not more, that are solely due to Comics Mechanics.

The average throwing speed of anything is 35 mph? Do you even know what average means? So I can throw a truck at 35 mph? I can throw a feather at 35 mph? You're so hilariously stupid, you don't even understand the context of the statistics you spout.

 

No, because when discussing comics, everything that happened in the comics is what we go on. That's simple common sense. Yeah, the good guy usually wins, that's because the good guy usually has a trait that enables him to win, even if it's not physical. Disregarding the comics because of those things you just mentioned is incredibly stupid. Spider-Man didn't actually beat Green Goblin because he's the good guy, and he won! In fact, any victory with him over a bad guy now does contribute to his power set! Awesome! So now we have absolutely no idea of what he can do!

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

No one is dumb here, just have different opinions.

[Gizmo Hibiki]

http://youtu.be/oyl97TG8jbA

[kainboa]

The average throwing speed of anything is 35 mph?

 

I'm not really sure if you're just stupid, have a reading problem, or simply that eager to get into a debate, but he actually answered that particular question in the post you're replying to, I've taken the liberty of underlining the important bits, which you seem to have missed in your initial read through.

 

a 12 year old(male) has an average throwing velocity(with a dodgeball) of roughly 35 MpH

 

So I can throw a truck at 35 mph? I can throw a feather at 35 mph?

 

Yes, of course you can, just like you're also able to fire laser beams from your eyes and breathe in space [/sarcasm]

 

You're so hilariously stupid, you don't even understand the context of the statistics you spout.

 

The context of the statistics is pretty clear, I'll refer you to my first quote, where I've underlined the important bits, if you still don't get it, I'll be happy to try and dumb it down for you.

[Guest potterpuppetpals]

See? This is the kind of shit I was talking about. No wonder I've left...

[Guest force_echo]

The average throwing speed of anything is 35 mph?

 

I'm not really sure if you're just stupid, have a reading problem, or simply that eager to get into a debate, but he actually answered that particular question in the post you're replying to, I've taken the liberty of underlining the important bits, which you seem to have missed in your initial read through.

 

a 12 year old(male) has an average throwing velocity(with a dodgeball) of roughly 35 MpH

 

So I can throw a truck at 35 mph? I can throw a feather at 35 mph?

 

Yes, of course you can, just like you're also able to fire laser beams from your eyes and breathe in space [/sarcasm]

 

You're so hilariously stupid, you don't even understand the context of the statistics you spout.

 

The context of the statistics is pretty clear, I'll refer you to my first quote, where I've underlined the important bits, if you still don't get it, I'll be happy to try and dumb it down for you.

Oh yeah. Thanks for failing to get my point completely. You're right. I now take back my point as I now realize that all dodgeballs are exactly the same, as obviously regulated by the National Dodgeball Federation for Kids on Playgrounds. Yeah, you sure made me look stupid.

 

By the way, even if the throwing speed was 30mph, it still doesn't invalidate the later points I made (which Sirmethos was too smart to address I'm guessing).

[Bergy_Berg]

See? This is the kind of shit I was talking about. No wonder I've left...

My little joke has gone horribly wrong.

[Guest sirmethos]

By the way, even if the throwing speed was 30mph, it still doesn't invalidate the later points I made (which Sirmethos was too smart to address I'm guessing).

 

Which points was that?

 

"No, because when discussing comics, everything that happened in the comics is what we go on. That's simple common sense. Yeah, the good guy usually wins, that's because the good guy usually has a trait that enables him to win, even if it's not physical. Disregarding the comics because of those things you just mentioned is incredibly stupid. Spider-Man didn't actually beat Green Goblin because he's the good guy, and he won! In fact, any victory with him over a bad guy now does contribute to his power set! Awesome! So now we have absolutely no idea of what he can do!"

 

1. Who has ever said anything about completely "disregarding the comics" ? 

 

2. No one has claimed that all fights are won(or lost) due to comics mechanics.

 

3. If you need to look at the fights that a character has been in, to determine his/her capabilities, then you need to read more comics(any comics).

 

 

I'm not seeing any actual "points" in the quoted/italic'd text, but now I've addressed that load on nonsense as well.

 

 

"Oh yeah. Thanks for failing to get my point completely. You're right. I now take back my point as I now realize that all dodgeballs are exactly the same, as obviously regulated by the National Dodgeball Federation for Kids on Playgrounds. Yeah, you sure made me look stupid."

 

the "35 MpH" is the average throwing velocity for 12 year old males in the U.S.

 

I'm sure if you look hard enough, you can find a 12 year old kid who's weak enough to have a throwing velocity with a dodgeball, that hits your example of 5 MpH, but that kinda throws your initial example to the trash anyway.

 

Kain didn't have to make you look stupid, you managed that yourself, without any help at all.

[Callisto]

Match Final Results

Superman: 9

Son Goku: 8

 

[Guest force_echo]

 

Which points was that?

 

"No, because when discussing comics, everything that happened in the comics is what we go on. That's simple common sense. Yeah, the good guy usually wins, that's because the good guy usually has a trait that enables him to win, even if it's not physical. Disregarding the comics because of those things you just mentioned is incredibly stupid. Spider-Man didn't actually beat Green Goblin because he's the good guy, and he won! In fact, any victory with him over a bad guy now does contribute to his power set! Awesome! So now we have absolutely no idea of what he can do!"

 

1. Who has ever said anything about completely "disregarding the comics" ? 

 

2. No one has claimed that all fights are won(or lost) due to comics mechanics.

 

3. If you need to look at the fights that a character has been in, to determine his/her capabilities, then you need to read more comics(any comics).

 

 

I'm not seeing any actual "points" in the quoted/italic'd text, but now I've addressed that load on nonsense as well.

 

 

"Oh yeah. Thanks for failing to get my point completely. You're right. I now take back my point as I now realize that all dodgeballs are exactly the same, as obviously regulated by the National Dodgeball Federation for Kids on Playgrounds. Yeah, you sure made me look stupid."

 

the "35 MpH" is the average throwing velocity for 12 year old males in the U.S.

 

I'm sure if you look hard enough, you can find a 12 year old kid who's weak enough to have a throwing velocity with a dodgeball, that hits your example of 5 MpH, but that kinda throws your initial example to the trash anyway.

 

Kain didn't have to make you look stupid, you managed that yourself, without any help at all.

This part (most of my response):

"Also, you're completely wrong. Reflex speed is the time it takes to react to an outside stimulus, being that that's what REFLEXES ARE. It is not "how long it takes for your brain to register something is happening". Also, if your "actual movement" speed is slower than that of a dodgeball (again, incorrect) then you would ALWAYS be hit, unless the thrower misses. No, people can dodge dodgeballs, and they can get hit by dodgeballs. That's because even though humans easily have enough reaction time to dodge dodgeballs, in a "combat" situation people make mistakes due to the amount of sensory input, they can get hit by things travelling much slower than they are."

 

Literally the entire middle section you skipped over. Also, even if it did throw at a speed of 35 mph, that gives about a second to someone 15 meters away. If you can't move your body out of the way of a small-medium sized ball in a second (for comparison, Mythbusters, when they did the bullet dodging episode, estimated they required .20 seconds to dodge a projectile), then I repeat my initial statement-- I'm sorry for the car accident that destroyed half of your body. I'm especially sorry that it destroyed half of your brain also.

 

You did. If you can disregard known feats on the simple basis of what should have happened according to you, then we get nowhere. Your "judgement" simply isn't canon, and that's basically the bottom line. Try to find an explanation, and 90% of the time there is one. The other 10%, sucks. But like I said before, that would require time and brainpower. Also, your "rules" have so many exceptions that it's not even funny, they're completely unusable.

 

Wow. Just wow. A second time someone completely fails to understand something so blatant and pain. I'm not talking about the kid you idiot, I'm talking about the dodgeball. You can throw paper balls (or what we used in gym, an extremely light foamy small ball which was impossible to throw fast) at each other, and still, someone will get hit. It's not just dodgeballs. All punches to the head should theoretically be easily dodgeable. A punch is a highly telegraphed movement that takes over twice the time as moving your head out of the way, kicks are even slower and more telegraphed. So I guess no one has ever takes a punch to the head or a kick.

[kainboa]

"Also, you're completely wrong. Reflex speed is the time it takes to react to an outside stimulus, being that that's what REFLEXES ARE. It is not "how long it takes for your brain to register something is happening".

I'll rephrase your statement a bit, to include a few extra bits of information, that you seem to be missing.

Reflex speed is the time it takes for your brain to receive information from your senses, interpret that information and send the correct signal out to the various muscles etc. In order to react to an outside stimulus.

While a large portion of this takes place entirely within the subconscious mind, rather than the concious mind, it's still a process which takes place within your brain.

[Guest force_echo]

"Also, you're completely wrong. Reflex speed is the time it takes to react to an outside stimulus, being that that's what REFLEXES ARE. It is not "how long it takes for your brain to register something is happening".

 

I'll rephrase your statement a bit, to include a few extra bits of information, that you seem to be missing.

 

Reflex speed is the time it takes for your brain to receive information from your senses, interpret that information and send the correct signal out to the various muscles etc. In order to react to an outside stimulus.

 

While a large portion of this takes place entirely within the subconscious mind, rather than the concious mind, it's still a process which takes place within your brain.

Yes, a reflex is technically a subconscious movement which you have no control over (which does not solely take place in the brain, in fact, reflexes are conveyed through the spinal cord and muscles, so it does not involve the brain at all), but obviously what we are actually talking about is the ability to consciously dodge something. Which technically is response time.

Scientists test reaction time by measuring a physical response. Pressing a button. Catching a ruler. Whatever the action, reaction time includes the physical response which includes your brain sending a signal to a muscle and the time it takes for the muscle to contract. Obviously not a process which takes solely in the brain.