baneblade

DS checks out the first few seconds of the fight then, positions his swords in a manner, allowing kurt to teleport right into them.

Stats would point to Galactus good bros. However, he has however played Thanos' fool once too often for me to actually believe he will win, with Warlock in tow. I lean toward, if not fall toward, Thanos and Warlock for now, unless one of the bros. comes up with a solid argument that trumps the history of Thanos blindsiding poor ol' Big G.

I smell a Superman vs Bats rumble next

Slade and Tiger will win, more because of Slade, than because of Tiger. Due to that, they will win by a margin.

Baller bro, Thou hast setup a good setup.

Haaaallleeeellllluuuujjjjjah baby!

Lobo will take this fight but not in a walk in the park scenario

Whether its the White or green, the martian(s) take this. I however, will not say it is an easy fight. Sweat will be broken, along with bones, but Hulk's will will be bent.

Uh, why is this match set up unfairly against Thor? The odds are so overwhelming its not funny bro.

Good bros. How funny is it that the match was Shiva and DD, and there are now at least numerous posts directly debating DD and Bat's feats, I am included in this hilarity as well. I will recommend something here. 1- Lets all get out of here. Period. Problem is, as I remarked in the beginning posts, we will stumble into grey areas, and then go in circles. That is what we are doing. 2- Another thing that appalled me, or made me laugh was the insane amount of references involving absolute PIS, on both sides, yet no one actually seems to acknowledge that fact. Is it the love of the respective characters, or the betterment of debate that we have let this go? I think it is for the sake of the character itself rather than reasonable debate. Ex: I myself cited a match up that I personally know bats can't win. On the other side, there are utterly PIS DD feats that label his strength level at par with Spiderman, even more, and no one called PIS on it. 3- Lets not continue on this, move onto other rumbles. We have stated our points, and made our arguments. This is only a humble opinion bros. nothing more.

Outsiders Five of kind storyline. Don't have scans. Read it from a library. As I said, you seemed to know about it in a past match, and even debated on it, without requiring substantiation via scan. But that is besides the point.

Dear fellow ferreters. One way of proving that either combatant (i.e; Bats or DD) has an experience set based on the quality of opponents they have beaten, whether it was a 1 on 1, or whether it was catching an overtly powerful opponent(s) by surprise, thereby surpassing the opponent's speed, and senses, and beating them in the quickets, elementary method. In that DD has no waiver over Bats. Period. I just cited one instance of Bats downing 2 of the most skilled, and undoubtedly powerful opponents, which I truly believe DD has not done, in any context whatsoever. He did it too, in his most basic element. You could go ahead and disprove that, by producung two DD feats that even remotely touch that level and we will say 'game is a foot' after that. WIthout that comparitive stat, or instance, in any element may it be, the whole argument titling on DD pressing 400 or a ton, or Bats pushing 1 ton+, or using this gadget or that, are 'additions' to the argument. Lets see DD's quality of opponents and go from there. To remind everyone, one of Bats oppponents I mentiond on the post kept footing easily, with 3 opponents at once, namely Superman, Orion and Manhunter. Withstanding such an opponent even for a minute would be a tremendous feat, and one which clearly puts a fighter's experience at a new level, which Bats is. Lets go from there ma good bros.

The real extract of this post lies in DD's opponent quality, in what I will say is just my take. DD's feats of fending off Fist, and Punisher in their respective circumstances takes a serious backseat to Bats feat in the above posts: Taking on General and living through it, a band of amazons, and taking down General and Bronze Tiger in one go. Can't match it, not anytime sooner bro.

2- Not with DD's super senses, he isn't "vanishing" anywhere. DD could literally hear him a mile away if he wanted to. Yet it happened with Punisher, even if in the max series, where both retained all abilities and skills? I bet ya bro, Bats is way more stealthy 3- Amazonian Warriors are not that impressive at all. They're about 10 times stronger than a human female, and they possess heightened speed and endurance past the normal human male or female, so about as fast as Batman or something. Daredevil's fought Spider-Man numerous times, I'm fairly sure he could take out quite a bit of Amazonian warriors. Daredevil also beat 100 Yakuza in the span of 3 minutes with his walking cane. Despite being some of the best assassin's money can buy, and them taking MGH, giving them superhuman strength, speed, stamina, etc. Also, they had guns. Also, Daredevil hasn't beaten anyone smart or as smart as Batman? Try Punisher. Bro, you just discarded a group of amazons just like that? Can't believe that bro. Your own stated stats would suggest, that being as fast as Bats even, lets say, and a bunch of them, would not be a challenge? Come one bro, now that would be stretching the straw even. DD's taken Spiderman singularly, impressive, yet not the same as facing a team up of amazons attacking full out and withstanding them, especially when you do not have 'sonar senses'. Yakuza? Their 'heightened' senses or abilities were never truly mentioned solidly, like the amazons, whose abilities are set in standard manner. I am not discarding the feat, and it is impressive; not so much as facing General Eiling in closed quarters, or a band of amazons, even if three to four at a time. As for Punisher brom being equal to Bats. Not in this universe bro. Castle's smart, and stealthy, only upto a degree. Check any source, Bats lives to out think, out smart, and thinks always 10 steps ahead at a time. It is taboo. 4- How did Batman take down the General and Bronze Tiger simultaneously? I'm calling Bullshit on that one, especially since Bronze Tiger's taken down Batman by himself before. You got a scan or issue number or something? Outsiders - Five of a Kind. You forget, the example has been cited before on anothe rpost in an earlier year, and I recall well you were debating. You knew about it then too, and were trying to counter it; just can't recall the arguments or the match. Now for the bullshit part. What do you think, I accept that as something that is smart and run of the mill? I too call it bullshit. That is what I said on the post previous, that I was surprised, you, of all bros, who has called things bullshit, didn;t even cite DD's breaking of Abosrbing man's hand with a wrecking ball of all things, bullshit. Last I recalled DD was advanced human in physicality, now enhanced human or meta human. Same goes for DD/Hulk. As a saving grace for us, the least you could have done is at least call that bullshit. 5- Is losing to the General a feat? Also, the General isn't a tactical genius or anything in his enhanced physical form, against his fight with the JLA his "strategy" consisted of punching them. A lot. Exactly like Hulk. Also, Daredevil's fought Namor, on the coast. As in, right next to the ocean, so a fully hydrated Namor. Yes, when I say, the Genaeral has Superman level durability, strength, and took on Orion, Manhunter and Superman in one go, even withstanding him along with a few others for a few minutes, sans powers becomes a huge feat for a normal person. Even while General is not tactically as sound as before in the Shaggy Man's frame; he is a threat I do not see DD hurting, only averting upto a few minutes, if not seconds. Given closed quarters, I bet DD will not withstand him, Bats did. As for Namor, so what happened, did DD win? What about the time Namor also beat him handily? What about your personal opinion on that? Even though it forcably doesnot bear on the match, but don't you opine that as bullshit bro? Still, Shaggy man is miles ahead of Namor (Orionr, Supes, Manhunter, all at once!). I conjecture, since Bat's fights was once, mostly off panel, and once, quickly presented onpanel, where he surprised Tiger and the General, I would have to draw, that he had the dexterity, reflexes, effective backup equipment, tat helped him trump them and survive, whichever comes first. I just don't see a DD feat as such. Fairly, then even taking from the PIS factory there, I will say Bats' experience in every fight outhsines DD in that, given his already always spinning mental gears, he will be more alert on the ready, just due to his personal fighting/opponent experience. An opinion aside good bro: Even though DD is one of my favourites from the Marvel universe, I will say one thing: His PIS list is as much ignored as a host of other characters. Again, not bearing down on the outcome of the match, or debate; but it is an opinion, and one, again, which surprisingly, you never mentioned, or chose not to see or mention.

1. Except Muhammed Ali and Lee didn't really have students. Also, by your point, Lady Shiva was only better than Bats and Cain at the point of when she trained them. She trained Bats when he was a shadow of his former self. She trained Cain when she didn't have her body reading ability. That's not impressive whatsoever. I'm fairly sure Daredevil could beat both simultaneously at that point in time. Still does not negate the point that her ability and knowledge surpassed them even if at that point in time. WHat about the time when she not only killed Cain but restarted her heart, thereby affording her the chance to win later? DD beating them is conjecture bro 2. No, that's not true at all. Just because Bane can beat Judomaster using other techniques doesn't mean he has no use for Judo. What if he's fighting in another situation where Judo is more optimal than whatever he uses? Such as when he fights someone substantially bigger than him, a situation where Judo is optimized I think. No bro. That's not how any fighting discipline works. There is no fighting discipline in fact that is essentially required to fight another weilding that discipline in a 'real' fight. You are drawing a straw and stating something as in 'Judo tournament', or 'Karate tournament'. Those are unique, in between situations where people of similar skill are tested, not people of 'varying skills'. In relaity, again reiterating, no particular fighting style is need to trump another 3. I'm talking about the first fight, where you said Shiva would win. Which is not true at all. The second fight, I still think goes to Daredevil because of his greater physicality even if him and Shiva are close in skill. What are you talking about? First of all, there's nothing saying that Shiva's smart enough to pick up on the fact that he's blind. Second of all, she can't be silent. Her heart's still beating, and as softly as she steps and moves, Daredevil can still hear it. He can smell the sweat on her body and make an image of her. He can feel the displacement of the air when she moves. No once can "silence" themselves from Daredevil. Yet he didn't detect the punisher in the Max series when Punisher blindsided him with sonics and tied him up. I do not think Punisher is any more deceptive in a H2H fight, than Bats or Shiva. In fact, he is way less. Iron Fist is more skilled than Cain or Batman, he's literally infinitely skilled. Plus he's far superhuman with chi-enhancement, he's also beaten Ghostface (a person who beat Shang Chi in like 3 panels) and a mind-controlled Elektra simultaneously. So that takes care of Cain. Also, Batman isn't that impressive tactically, he's more of a strategy guy. If anything, the Punisher's better or equal, and Daredevil's beaten him 2-3 times. Added to that, one stalemate, and one time where Punisher beat Daredevil. Fist is 'skilled technically' you say bro? I agree. Infinitely, no. Infinite, would be to have no limit, just like folsk used to bull**** on Hulk's no cieling strength. Cain is not taken care of in sense that I think she is miles ahead of Elektra. As for Shang Chi or Ghost Face, there is a lot of deliberation on those 2. Cap, sans the 'enhanced' martial arts skills held up against Shang Chi decently in a straight up session. Punisher better? Nyah bro. Of course, you can opine that way, but you will find many many folks will disagree. Punisher was never equal to DD or Bats in terms of H2H. He was always a gun totting chap. Plus, in the JLA/Avengers crossover, Bats laid a hard smackdown on him.

It seems everyone here that is discussing Bats and DD is avoiding a few things altogether, for convenience sake, or not. 1 - Bats is a genius, DD is not. Bats will figure out DD's blind and relying on his senses, whivh like Superman's are possibly heightened 2 - Bats training affords him to simply vanish from a fight, if he wants to. This is especially possible in a 1 on 1 scenario 3 - DD has never faced a smarter opponent than Bats. Go on and name an opponent DD faced that took down several amazonian level fighters at a time 4 - Bats took down Bronze Tiger, and the General in one outing, disguised as Matches. He had minimal equipment at the time too. Tell me DD has faced opponents the caliber of the General and Bronze Tiger in one go and taken them down. 5 - Bats faced off against the General in closed quarters, and while it was impossible to beat him, he lasted a good time to allow back up to roll in. Show me a character at the level of the General, who DD has faced. And please don;t even try with Hulk, as Hulk was a mindless beast and all. In the regard of the last point, I clearly remember other debates in which certain folks on this very post called Bats outing with Hulk in the early tears PIS. Even discarded it. Now, the same folks are stepping up to the plate and quoting DD accomplishing Superhuman feats and not batting an eyelid doing it? Seems a tad bit hypocritical to me. I am not saying I discard the feats. I have to accept major PIS since it is on print. I also know that folks will come up with examples and 'push' them as fighters equal to General or Tiger, or Bane, or a trained band of amazons, who each have superhuman reflex and abilities. By the way, General took on Superman, Orion and Manhunter, all at once. Go ahead and top it folks.

Bro, Bats avoided a super powered imp disguised as Manhunter, upclose range too. He has also tussled with multiple amazons during the lame Amazons Attack crossover. Just to cite 2 examples.

One dream breakdown bros: Hulk sees star spangled tights, courtesy Manhunter, dreams on the beach, siesta etc. While Thor, and Vision hurl expletives like crazy while fending off WW, Superman and Flash, just as Stewart and iron man plow into each other. Tony holds up well, and tries to escape to knock sense into Hulk, who walks the field like a moron in a haze, as the battle rages on. Stewart being a cheat, rips open Tony's armour like a tin can, taking the cue, and goes onto Hawkeye who's trying to take a timed aim at Flash. Cap to Hulk: Banner, Hulk, in line soldier. You fu+++++ moron, what's wrong with you? Haven't you seen star spangled overalls before? Look, I have em'. Hulk in a haze : Hulk like.... stars... Nothing but.. stars... . Thor: Mayhap, The Hulk thus be expelled from thy team Captain. Takes a stray blow from a concealed Manhunter in the process. Avengers fall because of Hulk's lack of action, due to Manhunter's telepathy. If that scenario won't happen, I will call these versions pretty equal. If one team wins, it will be by a margin. I will wait and see other bros. posts and see how it goes.

1. The point still stands that you don't have to be a better boxer/martial artist to train someone else in boxing/martial arts, as I've shown. Bruce Lee/ Muhammed Ali/ Anderson Silva/George if they fought whoever trained them, both at their peaks, the student would win, just as Batman beat Shiva, just as Cain beat Shiva. You don't, and I never said it either. While you are trying to substantiate a point using any and all factors; you are missing some factors there as well. Factors like, there are varying degree of trainers. Those that just train. Others who are in the thick of it, and at their physical peak. Those are few, but they exist. You deliberate and I will say, rather incorrectly bro, that Bruce Lee or Ali, at their peaks, would lose to their students? You do know that the standards set by Ali and Lee while debated upon by haters, still stand to this day where professionals and amateurs alike regard their set standards as measuring rods? Even when I look at present day boxers, with regards to agility, aversion, footwork, stamina, and in ring manouvering; yes, they do not compare to Ali's style. Same goes for Lee; current martial artists, in several martial arts publications, acknowledge Lee's martial arts prowess and how no one has really reached the standard, not even those who have followed in Lee's self-styled/created art. With these exceptions, you could always argue, that a student training directly under Ali, when he was the greatest boxer, and lee when he was at his peak, WILL beat him; and you are entitled to your opinion. It however, isn't logically sound. At their peaks, I give their students no chance. Yes, down the line, after an year, the ballgame is new, not the same. 2. Nope, I don't know what you're talking about honestly. And I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being 100% serious. Alright bro. Judomaster: expert in Judo. Bane : Judo skills nil., but excels farther in his own skill-set, which is essentially an amalgam of fighting styles. Bane > Judomaster. Even if Judo master knows Judo, him teaching Bane judo is redundant, as Bane is already above him in every other way. Same way, any 'Master' level or Sensei level individual will not seek to train from a novice, who may weild one skill the Master doesn't. Because in fighting, the parts are always greater than the whole. Thereby, (in my take) any 'Master" > novice, no matter what the novice wields as a skill. 3. A bunch of Daredevil's foes are pretty damn smart, a lot smarter than Shiva, that's for sure. She's never shown tactical ability. Daredevil is also more physically capable, has more experience, range, weapons, etc. Even if they're even in raw skill there's literally no possible way Shiva can win this. And Victor Sage beat Shiva in a Brightest Day spinoff. Also, Shiva hasn't beaten the caliber of opponents Daredevil has. Daredevil who's beaten every top martial artist the MU has to offer and who regularly fights outside of his weight class, power wise. Bro, what you are repeatedly missing is the part where they face off in the dojo. No terrain/ledge/corner luxury, no wrecking ball, no surrounding advantage. You are getting that once Shiva figures out DD's blind, and have extra senses after the first battle; he will have to contend with mostly what is silence. Not saying it is forgone, but I will deduce on it. There are things which she will accomplish in closed quarters of a plain surfaced silent dojo, that DD will have a hard time picking up. Also, DD's opponents do not top Bats, or Cain, or Cassandra Cain. Now, of course, you will argue the opinion, and you have before on other matches involving either Bats or DD. I know you have been commenting on set skills; reflexes, bullet timing, etc. No matter which way you throw it, there is no smarter opponent than Batman, and if Cassandra Cain can give him a run for his money, whether on panel or in words, then she is an opponent like none Daredevil has faced. If there is, go ahead and list em'. Ironfist or Bullseye, or Elektras are not it.

1 - You took this whole thing in a completely different direction than what I was implying. I am not sure if following up on this will actually improve it. Mohd Ali's trainer and Ali were never existing in the same element. I never meant to imply that 'any' trainer can do this. I meant to imply a unique situation, such as the one in which folks like Anderson Silva and St. Piere are right now. If the student faces either man, I bet they will go down really hard. That is the type of similar circle/sphere I was talking about. If I didn't come across as such, I apologise. I hope I cleared something form my side there. 2. I don't know what you're saying with this Bane thing. Maybe if you cut out all of the bros and actually tried using concise, clear english I would be able to understand your point. Sarcasm much? Its alright bro, I am used to it , and I have seen you use it before. Maybe you should read through the post again. Daredevil can interpret body language too. Lady Shiva has "fallen" to a lot of people. I mentioned a list before. Cassandra Cain, Batman, Tim Drake, David Cain, Cheshire, Prometheus, and Victor Sage. there might be more, but Shiva's not very frequently used. She most definitely did not teach Batman anywhere near his prime. She actually taught him at the lowest point of his entire history as a character. She taught Cassandra when she couldn't read body language, you know, the entire thing that makes her as good as she is. If Batman can beat "anyone of both universes" (a claim so ridiculous its funny, but that's for another time) it has nothing to do with Shiva at all. The bottom line is training people doesn't mean you're more skilled than them. Maybe it means Shiva could beat Batman at the point in time in which she trained Batman, but that's not saying much, as he was basically a shadow of himself as stated by Shiva herself. Daredevil has trained Iron Fist, someone who literally has an infinite amount of fighting skill. And Daredevil (like I've said before) can anticipate moves also. Her smarts? What smarts? Being outsmarted and overestimating her opponent? That's the extent of her tactical ability I've seen thus far. Daredevil however, is a master tactician, and out-thinks his opponents constantly. Daredevil still wins, even if Lady Shiva can match him in skill. All of the instances you mention, and the fighters, top notch talent. Prometheus' profile itself speaks for itself, Cheshire; first drugged shiva, Tim Drake was 'amped' by some drug, and where did Victor Sage defeat her? Even if he did, in another encounter, she both almost killed him, and helped him. David Cain, again in Bat's league. Who she really lost to, are top notch folks. I see the pattern you yourself are setting bro. I realise that you are stating DD's feats amassed over a number of years, and Shiva's can't be derived in as much number simply due to her being a fill-in/supporting character. As for the quality of 'smart' opponents DD faces and outsmarts, it is another debate altogether, as all of them are not 'smart' in fighting tactics, and he has had many many opponents. Shiva's opponents that you have listed yourself though, given her much more limited comic outings, are definitely the 'cream of the crop', if the fight was simply H2H, 1 on 1. As for the opinion DD takes this or Shiva, that rests with us now, doesn't it?

No, you're assuming that Muhammed Ali's trainer was actually better than Muhammed Ali at his prime, which is ridiculous. And if it has grown MORE challenging, well that just reinforces my point. If you look at all of those fighters' trainers in their prime, they were never as good as their trainee's in their prime even though the sport's gotten MORE competitive. I am not assuming that at all. I will assume though, that if they were in the same age group, same weight class, came competitive lineup, Ali would have nil chances of besting him, because logically, he would be training under him, and not know all there is to know to go over him. Wow, thanks for proving my point. Yes, Bane can beat Judomaster, just like a trainee in Judo can beat a master in Judo if he knows other things. Also, in training Batman you're neglecting the fact that Batman was weakened, and lost his skills after Knightfall. That was why she helped him, out of respect for his older self. So she didn't train Batman at his peak martial arts ability, she helped him REGAIN stuff. A whole different ballgame. Furthermore, what am I doing? I don't HAVE to provide real life examples. You're saying that because Shiva trained Batman she's more skilled than Batman, well then WHY CAN'T SHE BEAT BATMAN? You're saying that because Shiva trained Cassandra Cain she's as good as Cain, obviously not. You're point is countered by the source material, she's not more skilled than Batman, not more skilled than Cain, and she was beaten by BOTH of her students. No, bro. My point was not what you took it to be at all. My point was simple that Bane 'excelled' Judomaster at his own (Bane's) skills, in his own circles, not the other way around. Sorry if I didn't interrupt it to your understanding, or anyone's for that matter. My implication was that Judomaster knowing his particular skill at a lower ebb (inspite of being labelled 'master') than Bane mastering his, would not make for a logical point, if Judomaster taught bane core judo, as Bane excelled him in what he knew, making the point defunct, of learning combat skills he could trump anyway. As for Shiva not beating Bats? I think I have explained it, Cassandra Cain is over DD and Bats, as her ability if such that she mimics body movement, and retaliates accordingly, an ability that will take her farther and it did. Bats' smarts are the reason why Shiva won't beat him,(if she loses), that is, if they have a legible, one on one match sans distractions. I am not saying she will not win, but if she does bro, he is among DC's premier fighters. To how many has he fallen exactly? For that matter, to how many has Cassandra Cain fallen? And to how many has Shiva fallen? To these two? Me thinks it is a circle of the 'kick ass' fighters of the DC universe isn't it? It is not hard to see bro, yet you are delving on the 'straw' yourself, discounting Shiva's ability simply on her primary students, who will best anyone in both universes. She taught them, in their primes, or during injury, but still during their primes; she made them what they are, and did so in the same profession, or same circle as them. It stands as a kick-ass feat, regardless of what you think. So? Is that supposed to be impressive? Is that supposed to counter Daredevil's feats? Daredevil's stronger than Huntress and Catwoman too. You're reaching for straws. You're little training thing doesn't work, and this feat is so laughable that it probably wasn't worth the effort to type it. Daredevil can bat bullets away with his baton easily, and wield a freaking wrecking ball to shatter the arm off of DIAMOND absorbing man. A wrecking ball that is usually mounted on a goddamn crane. He can effortlessly curl 400 pounds and then beat the shit out of people with the weight. You haven't proven at all that Lady Shiva is more skilled than Daredevil, but even if I assume they're even, Daredevil has the edge in literally EVERYTHING else. Straws it has to be if you put it that way bro. I already mentioned Shiva's feats are too less to 'draw' from. The only option you do is derive the facts and piece them together. That absolutely does not mean making them up, but deriving from the source material what you can and trying to substantiate the points into the argument, coupled with stated abilities of the character. Shiva's one of those characters, whose primary abilities are mostly listed in profiles, and extracted from her interactions with major players like Cain and Bats. I am teaching anyone here, you have been in this long enough bro. Shiva vs DD won't be a match too long. Shiva projects body movement through her ability (same ability she expanded on for Cain). She is not your conventional fighter. To me, that one ability, and her smarts are enough to give DD a headache. What you are seemingly doing bro, is taking advantage of just that situation and asking for cold hard 'facts' to lay down and compare. We both know there aren't enough, and there will be straws in this one. Unless there is someone who has read Shiva's every appearance (and those are far and in between too), that's they way it is. My take is straightforward, she has tussled and trained with the 2 top notch H2H fighters. She has matched their tactics and abilities, even if coming on a certain short end. I could make up all sorts of excuses here too, that Shiva had a death wish, and perhaps let go of several key strikes or advantages in the course of the fight with Cain the second time, but I won't as it wouldn't be an argument. Lets stick with what we have here eh? She tussled with, and trained the best giving them, full quarter when affording them every opportunity to go over her, in that she faced them in the course of an year or so.

Good bro, even if she fell to Batman, it was to either a superior fighter or a fighter at par. She was not essentially his teacher then, they had both undergone years of experience on their own before they met there. That aside, I believe Bats or Casandra Cain to be over DD any day. In that comparison factor alone, it doesn't dampen her chances one bit against DD. Also, Chuck Dixon commented on this during the release of the major story arc, that Bats knew Shiva's skills, and went to her, not just regaining his, but learning an amalgam of additional skills, that were necessary to help him get back his physical ability as well. They expounded on this well during that time. Hence, be it, she lost there; (although like in previous posts in other matches, where you vehemently spoke about PIS in favour of a character, you could have mentioned it here as well, perhaps as a saving grace? - no matter there though) he was no longer under her for years, and either he surpassed her, or beat her that day out of character. I only state this because that grey area of mind control will not go anywhere, I know. Although, it is only fair to cite feats when both characters are fully in their element, to ward off excuses, lets just get out of that argument and move on.

1. It doesn't matter, they were better than their coaches at their prime too, indisputably. They were never at that competitive level because they weren't that good, simple as that. No bro. You are assuming this. Their time frames with regards to competitive level, contenders, and even training differed. Any one who knows a bit of boxing or martial arts history will know, that arts, competitive sports, fighting sports all have grown faster, more challenging, with more competition. It is an ongoing trend. Whether 1 or 2 sports maybe exceptions to this, most sports undergo this experience, as do the folks partaking of their history and course of events. 2. It is completely logical because they operate in different martial arts. This is a fairly simple concept, it's called specialization. If person A is average at one thing, and person B is a world master at another, person A can still train person B because they OPERATE IN DIFFERENT FIELDS. And no, it is nothing like your example at all, bodybuilding is just bodybuilding, it's not a skilled activity that has any differentiation. And you're wrong again. Batman might be seeking her because she's DIFFERENT, not better. As shown, he still has the capability to beat Lady Shiva, so it's fairly obvious that she's not better. Bro, this is my side of the coin: A world master at any particular art will excel even in his own circle above another, who is a novice. Here's an example, and not one at the world master 'stage', but quite lower: In one of my sparring sessions, I was told to only 'tag' a guy who was visiting during inter-school tournaments. I was unable to in a time span of an astounding 30 seconds, even tag him, leave alone rush him. His discipline was Tae-Kwon-do. Mine were Tae-Kwon-Do world style, plus wrestling, and even boxing to a degree. The reason could have been either: 1) I sucked bad OR 2) He was too experienced, and too good. I know for a fact, the reason was 2) He was too experienced, and too good. When he spoke to us briefly, he also mentioned that he dabbled in Kungfu, and had more than amalgamated or consolidated his training. That was him, but I know for a fact, that this is the most likely path, all fighters take now a days. Being a master is not just knowing that one discipline, and excelling at it, it's much more. Moreover, it is excelling in the core discipline, to a degree, that even if another knows a certain discipline but sucks at it, or is just as good, it becomes contradictory for the 'master' to learn bits of that discipline from a novice. That is my take bro, but more than that, it is the practical, realistic take. Bane necessarily did not know judo to a degree of excelling, yet he snapped Judomaster like a twig. While judomaster was a 'master' at his skill, Bane wasn't necessarily a master at judo, but an amalgam of skills, but excelled in them. That is what makes a difference. This is not an accountant teaching a stock trader accounting, this is a completely different channel of development and training. As for the Shiva part, you say it that way, doesn't mean it was listed that way. Bats ego is one hell of an ego. He wouldn't go to a bad guy, actively on the other side of the business unless they were exceptionally good. I could simply say that out of common sense. But more so at the release of the Knightfall sagas, the news was even in the papers; Chuck Dixon was among the writers who clearly said in a discussed comment section of this major story, that due to Shiva's level as a Master Assassin, and skill level that Bats respected, he went out of his element to seek her help. I am sorry, but I go with him. Daredevil has better speed, strength, and acrobatic ability than Lady Shiva. He is also undoubtedly smarter and tactically minded. Lady Shiva has shown little to no tactical ability ever, in fact, I would say she has a habit of being tricked. You can never know that bro. Shiva staved off Huntress or catwoman's strikes casually with one hand. One hand! That among her already meagerly listed, is one of her feats. It is not a casual feat either. I know for a fact that Catwoman or Huntress would at least give Bats a sweat, if not a real challenge.

Nova bro, I likes ya like the bro you are.

Well, I would say it's partially true, but it really isn't. For Damien or Tim, to be able to "beat just about anyone", by adding the factor of a sentient mind(which they already have), you would have to remove that same factor, from any opponent you put them up against. Which is just plain stupid. Even without factoring in, things like Chance/luck, etc. you still have to factor in Motivation, Mindset, and half a dozen other things. If Batman and Nightwing are fighting, it is not 100% certain that either of them will win. One of them may be more motivated towards winning than the other, which would give that person an advantage. They also have different physiques, which gives both of them some advantages, Nightwing is far more agile, for example, while Batman is stronger. Nightwing is also a better improviser and tactician, while Batman is by far the better strategist, and the more intelligent of the two. My point here is, that your "method", of sticking to "stats and feats", is simply not feasible, when trying to determine who would be the actual winner, in any given fight. Simply because there are so many additional factors , that has to be taken into account. I agree with the factors you mention there, and accept the implications. I already said what you just stated here: The factors go both ways, whether negated or added. Which only means you just can't introduce them just because they could be, or can be. The question in our debates is thereby streamlined: should they be, can they be, in that particular match, or in this particular case, or for that particular character. On the same grounds, you just can't dismiss a character's standing by implying same factors out of nowhere, just because realistically they can be there, but for the betterment of the debate, to arrive at a result, are excluded. It is the logical way to go bro. Which brings us to your next point. That's nice. But by allowing others to bring up real-life comparisons(bruce lee's trainer, muhammed ali's trainer, etc. etc.), and not straight up dismissing them, by pointing out that those do not compare, due to the countless additional factors, you have already opened the door for allowing those factors into the debate. Which essentially shoots down your entire argument. I never 'allowed' others bro. They just brought it up, and if I didn't develop your stated train of thought and didn't dismiss them in my way, and instead addressed them in another way, does not mean that those factors still 'apply'. If you read my post regarding the trainers of those fighters you just mentioned, you will see my point. Even in real life, there are no wild degree of deviation from certain limits, even given the fallibilities and external factors working a mindset. Go ahead, again, as I asked good bro Force, I ask you; cite an example, where the trainer got beat by the student, except the example has to resemble Shiva and Bats: Trainer and student in same element, same sphere of existence, both in their primes, both in the same competitive ring, or space. Give me an example bro, and I promise you I will concede. I am not the sort to reinforce a point if I don't believe in it. I know you don't too. The prefect example so far has been repeatedly forced by Darxeth, who pointed out the most similar cases: St. Pierre being in his prime and training students, who are in their prime. The chances of a student winning are none if he steps into the ring with St. Pierre. Now, if you say, Pierre was distressed, then bro, as I pointed out in other posts, it is a whole new ball game. It is not St. Pierre at 100%. It is a singular, out of the box situation. Now you may still not see it that way, but I definitely do. The only exception to the outcome will be, after a few years, in which the student improvises, and expands his threshold in various ways, in which case to me, the settings are not parallel anymore. It becomes a vast, wider area of consideration.