Mythbusters: CBUB

[Guest Scar]

Ruinus.

 

And people say Treach is awesome.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Yes, because the on goings of DC universe have nothing at all to do with DBZ. So if Superman is FTL and yet we still see his fights (which I don't even know either way, as I dont' read DC) doesn't mean DBZ can be FTL and we can see their fights. Or in case you still want to compare settings, in the Culture-verse ships fight at FTL speeds and have entire fleet engagements in a few microseconds and humans can't see them. So... I guess Culture-verse proves DBZ-verse isn't FTL, just the same way DC-verse proves DBZ-verse is FTL?

 

My analogy was there to help you understand the argument you are making and why it's a fallacy.

 

You asked me to prove that DBZ fighters don't move at FTL. That is a logical fallacy, as it's assuming that simply becuase a premise hasn't been proven wrong (DBZ fighters are FTL) it must therefore be right. This is exactly the same as saying Goku is a mass murdering axe killer, and has fathered children all around the world, and occasionally likes to get into sweaty man sandwhiches with Vegeta and Piccolo because no one has proven the idea wrong.

 

 

 

I don't know the specifics of this argument or event in question, but from what I can tell it rests on the assumption that speed/strenght goes up with power level (I'm assuming your "45,000 times stronger since that feat" is concerning this).

 

 

 

Actually, my side (Or anyone else who doesn't think they are FTL) doesn't have to "give in". We don't have to make any claim at all whatsoever. It's up to the pro-FTL argument to show FTL evidence. I'll "give in" when they show FTL evidence and not just "could be" "what if" or "they should be".

 

BTW, sure, DBZ fighters could be FTL... they could also be puppets being controlled by a giant monkey, or the fleeting dream of a sleeping child etc.

 

I frankly don't care what they could be, we are here to find what they are. And so far there is no evidence that they are FTL.

I dont think you are understanding me, your argument was "we can see them fight they are not FTL" I was merely saying we see Supes fight FTL, so why is it ridiculous we see DBZ fight? I never said it proves they are FTL btw.

 

With the whole logical fallacy, can I not say what you said but opposite? Akira (the creator of DBZ) never said they were FTL, but he also never said they weren't FTL. So isn't it wrong for you to say they are not FTL, is that speculation on your part?

 

Again you don't have to post smart a s s comments, they are kind of funny but off point, I got it the first time, please dont insult my intelligence. I havent done it to you so dont do it to me.

 

Here is my original argument, I want you to analyze my logic since you are participating more then others

Well the case Ill make that DBZ characters are capable of combat at light speed. Goku with a PL of 300 was able to doooooooodge (10 points for who knows what I am referring to) lightning. Lightning travels at 224,00 MPH light speed moves at 671 million mph. 671 mill divided by 224,000 equals 3,000 (rounded up). In other words speed of light is 3,000 times faster then lightning. Goku in Frieza saga (Ill use Frieza saga cause that is when they were offical) had a PL of 13.5 million. So 13.5 million divided by 300 is 45,000. So Goku was 45,000 times stronger then he was in Dragonball. In DBZ when they get stronger everything is amplified, speed, reflexes, strength etc. So 45,000 is 15 times that of 3,000. So I believe that anyone that is a Super Saiyan or higher is capable of light speed combat. My logic could be wrong, but hey it was a hunch, and I figured Mythbusters would be the place to test it.

 

You are right you dont have to give in, but this thread is mythbusters styled right? Well dont they do their verdicts as busted, truth, and plausible? So by saying they could be FTL means you agree with me when I say it is plausible.

[Guest Ruinus]

I dont think you are understanding me, your argument was "we can see them fight they are not FTL" I was merely saying we see Supes fight FTL, so why is it ridiculous we see DBZ fight? I never said it proves they are FTL btw.

 

Like I said, nothing in DC matters when talking about DBZ. I specifically don't even know about Superman. I know he moves FTL (he goes so fast he enters Heaven or something?) but I don't know if his fights specifically are FTL. Then again, I remember one comic where he flies to another galaxy and beats up an alien empire all within a convo with Louise, she didn't even notice he left or something).

 

But like I said, it doesn't matter anymore than the DeLorean going back in time in Back to the Future. After all, in BttF, when the DeLorean flashes and disappears from view it goes back in time... so since in DBZ they flash and disappear from view... they also go back in time?

 

With the whole logical fallacy, can I not say what you said but opposite? Akira (the creator of DBZ) never said they were FTL, but he also never said they weren't FTL. So isn't it wrong for you to say they are not FTL, is that speculation on your part?

 

Again you don't have to post smart a s s comments, they are kind of funny but off point, I got it the first time, please dont insult my intelligence. I havent done it to you so dont do it to me.

 

Akira never said they were FTL... so we don't have any reason to assume they are FTL, especially since there is still no evidence of being FTL. It's pure speculation to say DBZ fighters are FTL if there is no evidence. Again, there is no evidence in the positive, so we can't assume they are.

 

Nothing I've said insults your intelligence (since none of it is an attack on you), I also don't see how they are off point. I'm using the same argument you are putting forth (Prove they aren't FTL) in a different light (Prove Goku isn't a puppet on strings).

 

Seriously, there is no two ways about this. IF people want to say that DBZ fighters are FTL, then they have to prove (show evidence) that they are FTL. Until then, we have no evidence to assume they are, so we can dismiss baseless claims outright.

 

Here is my original argument, I want you to analyze my logic since you are participating more then others

Well the case Ill make that DBZ characters are capable of combat at light speed. Goku with a PL of 300 was able to doooooooodge (10 points for who knows what I am referring to) lightning.

 

Here's the episode in question.

 

I've cut out the rest of your argument because it rests solely on this quoted part, and the quoted part is wrong.

 

Load the video up from 19:00 to 19:11.

 

The lightning lands in front of Goku, and then travels towards him. You are right about the speed of lightning, but that speed is for lightning going straight down (from the clouds to the gound) but what you didn't (and apperantly Nuan07 in this thread) didn't try to figure out was the speed of the lightning as it traveled across the ground.

 

In fact from 19:09 to 19:12 you can see the ending of the lightning's path as it moves slowly across the ground.

 

Oh, and at 19:15 Goku gets struck by lightning.

 

Hell, Goku hears the lightning before he sees it, which is downright stupid.

 

You are right you dont have to give in, but this thread is mythbusters styled right? Well dont they do their verdicts as busted, truth, and plausible? So by saying they could be FTL means you agree with me when I say it is plausible.

 

It's plausible... but highly unlikely to be true. Just like it's plausible that the entire DBZ cast is made out of clay, or that they are all Broadway show dancers at night. If you are saying it's plausible then sure, I agree. After all, Instant Transmission exists, so someone, somewhere, in the DBZ universe might be FTL. But we've never seen this char, so we've got no reason to assume he/she/it exists.

 

But if anyone says that they are FTL, I'll ask for evidence. And when they don't show it (like this entire debate has been), I'll dismiss their claims outright.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Here's the episode in question.

 

I've cut out the rest of your argument because it rests solely on this quoted part, and the quoted part is wrong.

 

Load the video up from 19:00 to 19:11.

 

The lightning lands in front of Goku, and then travels towards him. You are right about the speed of lightning, but that speed is for lightning going straight down (from the clouds to the gound) but what you didn't (and apperantly Nuan07 in this thread) didn't try to figure out was the speed of the lightning as it traveled across the ground.

 

In fact from 19:09 to 19:12 you can see the ending of the lightning's path as it moves slowly across the ground.

 

Oh, and at 19:15 Goku gets struck by lightning.

 

But if anyone says that they are FTL, I'll ask for evidence. And when they don't show it (like this entire debate has been), I'll dismiss their claims outright.

Well it is possible that the lightning traveling across the ground is still as fast as when it was being struck, you can see that there is a slow motion effect being used, so I dont think we can determine it's traveling speed. After all the episode is called "Quicker then Lightning".

 

As for being hit by the second it could be the result of him thinking the test is over, this is a possibility of that because he is clearly bragging with a big smile. We will say that he didn't dodge it, as I said speed of light is 3,000 times faster then lightning. The time era I chose Goku's PL was 45,000 times stronger then this time. As I said DBZers get boosted in every physical way, so he is 45,000 times faster then he was at this time. 45,000>3,000.

 

Evidence can be provided, but it doesn't make it right, but you make it look like I havent tried put up evidence.

[Guest Ruinus]

Well it is possible that the lightning traveling across the ground is still as fast as when it was being struck, you can see that there is a slow motion effect being used, so I dont think we can determine it's traveling speed. After all the episode is called "Quicker then Lightning".

 

Doesn't matter what the episode is called, only the events that actually occur in it.

 

The slow motion effect is from 19:07 to 19:09, and only during his jump. By the way, we saw Goku take several steps backwards, say for the hell of it he backtracked the distance of a football court (backtrack and then the jump he did at the end), so 28 meters by standard basketball court sizes. The entire thing took 10 seconds. So Goku was moving 2.8 m/s.

 

As for being hit by the second it could be the result of him thinking the test is over, this is a possibility of that because he is clearly bragging with a big smile. .

 

IF Goku was faster than lightning, this wouldn't matter though. He'd have the reflexes to avoid slow ass lightning as it hit him. But sure, we'll say he wasn't paying attention.

 

We will say that he didn't dodge it, as I said speed of light is 3,000 times faster then lightningThe time era I chose Goku's PL was 45,000 times stronger then this time. As I said DBZers get boosted in every physical way, so he is 45,000 times faster then he was at this time. 45,000>3,000.

 

What does this matter? Goku didn't dodge the lightning. Are you seriously saying that since a 45k is bigger than 3k (the PL of Goku and the speed of light) Goku MUST therefore be FTL? You're saying that the light's power level is equal to it's speed?

 

Why?

 

Evidence can be provided, but it doesn't make it right, but you make it look like I havent tried put up evidence.

 

You have tried, but you haven't shown any actual evidence so far.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

What does this matter? Goku didn't dodge the lightning. Are you seriously saying that since a 45k is bigger than 3k (the PL of Goku and the speed of light) Goku MUST therefore be FTL? You're saying that the light's power level is equal to it's speed?

 

football court

I said from the get go I could be wrong about it that is why I asked anyone to analyze it. And it is not the fact that 45k is bigger then 3K. Pretending that this is right, the logic I am getting at is light speed is 3,000 times faster, meaning he would have to be 3,000 times faster then before, the point in time I chose he is 45,000 times stronger (meaning 45k times faster), making him 15 times the speed he even needs to be.

 

See I could be a smart a s s and point out that it is a football field and not a court, but that isn't going to help so I choose not too.

[Guest Ruinus]

I said from the get go I could be wrong about it that is why I asked anyone to analyze it. And it is not the fact that 45k is bigger then 3K. Pretending that this is right, the logic I am getting at is light speed is 3,000 times faster, meaning he would have to be 3,000 times faster then before, the point in time I chose he is 45,000 times stronger (meaning 45k times faster), making him 15 times the speed he even needs to be.

 

Uh... no. Goku, if he moved the distance of a basketball court, was moving 3 m/s. If he's moving the distance of a football field (ha! that's likely) was moving 11 m/s. He either has to be moving 2,727,272.727 to 150,000,000 times faster to barely reach lightspeed.

 

Either way, by your argument, Goku would have to be 45k times stronger to reach FTL. Since his power level at that time was 300, he'd have to be of a power level of 13,500,000. So, Goku when he fougth Freeza had a power level of 30,000,000 to 150,000,000.

 

So then, your hypothesis that Goku should be FTL can be easily proven if you can show Goku being FTL during his fight with Freeza.

 

Have fun getting the evidence.

 

See I could be a smart a s s and point out that it is a football field and not a court, but that isn't going to help so I choose not too.

 

So... I'm a smart ass because I'm arguing against your point, and providing an actual measurement to counter your points?

 

But okay, let's be smart asses and say Goku backtracked the lenght of a football field, which is 109 meters long. 110 just to round up. He was moving 11 m/s. Still not light speed.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Uh... no. Goku, if he moved the distance of a basketball court, was moving 3 m/s. If he's moving the distance of a football field (ha! that's likely) was moving 11 m/s. He either has to be moving 2,727,272.727 to 150,000,000 times faster to barely reach lightspeed.

 

Either way, by your argument, Goku would have to be 45k times stronger to reach FTL. Since his power level at that time was 300, he'd have to be of a power level of 13,500,000. So, Goku when he fougth Freeza had a power level of 30,000,000 to 150,000,000.

 

So then, your hypothesis that Goku should be FTL can be easily proven if you can show Goku being FTL during his fight with Freeza.

 

Have fun getting the evidence.

 

 

 

So... I'm a smart ass because I'm arguing against your point, and providing an actual measurement to counter your points?

 

But okay, let's be smart asses and say Goku backtracked the lenght of a football field, which is 109 meters long. 110 just to round up. He was moving 11 m/s. Still not light speed.

Okay then watch the fight when they are moving fast to the point where we don't see them that is when they are light speed. Seeing as how you are allowing it to be right for the sake of things. Notice they dont do that(not being seen while fighting) the whole time? Well as I said earlier they cant maintain that speed for a long time, which I said is a possibility.

 

You are being a smart ass by over emphasizing your point with ridiculous sayings like "I cant prove Goku likes man sandwiches" or this gem "He is a sock puppet" I told you I got the point the first time, and I said let us be serious, so I will say yes you are winning this debate because you are countering my points, but you are acting childish as you are doing it.

[Guest Ruinus]

Okay then watch the fight when they are moving fast to the point where we don't see them that is when they are light speed.

 

Prove it.

 

Invisible =/= light speed.

 

You are being a smart ass by over emphasizing your point with ridiculous sayings like "I cant prove Goku likes man sandwiches" or this gem "He is a sock puppet" I told you I got the point the first time,

 

Yet you obviously didn't or you wouldn't have still asked why it was a fallacy to prove a negative.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Prove it.

 

Invisible =/= light speed.

 

 

 

Yet you obviously didn't or you wouldn't have still asked why it was a fallacy to prove a negative.

If something is moving at light speed would it not be invisible to the naked eye?

 

And I only recall asking once why it was a fallacy, but that is aside from the point so let us be mature and not get into a petty squabble about something we both truly dont care about.

 

But as I said we both agree it is plausible which I think it matters. Lets say if I write an arc involving Goku, if I really wanted him to be FTL I could always say "he has been training and now exceeds Vegito" but that is a weak cop out. IDK at first the debate was fun, but now is more of a chore, I have no problem conceding to you, everything I brought up you countered with a logical response.

[Guest Ruinus]

If something is moving at light speed would it not be invisible to the naked eye?

 

False dilemma.

 

Bullets move faster than human eyes can track, but they aren't light speed. Them simply disappearing from view is just that, they are moving faster than our eyes can see, it does not mean they are c or FTL.

 

s=d/t. Use it. Find an example of their bluring-invisible movement thing, a time frame, a distance involved, make a guess at the distance if you have to.

[Guest Ruinus]

I'm actually finding this to be boring too.

 

This has been going for 4 pages now, and yet not one shred of pro-FTL evidence. That's pretty damning IMO.

[Guest Darksaiyajin345]

Bullets move faster than human eyes can track, but they aren't light speed. Them simply disappearing from view is just that, they are moving faster than our eyes can see, it does not mean they are c or FTL.

Goku moves faster than Buu can see which is a huge difference in general. Dude there has been a ton of pro FTL evidence and all the Con evidence is non cannon bull crap just saying.

[Indolent]

Goku moves faster than Buu can see which is a huge difference in general. Dude there has been a ton of pro FTL evidence and all the Con evidence is non cannon bull crap just saying.

As Ruinus has been repetitively saying: SHOW THE EVIDENCE.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Find an example of their bluring-invisible movement thing, a time frame, a distance involved, make a guess at the distance if you have to.

That is kind of impossible, the anime is weird about stuff like that, Frieza said Namek would blow up in five minutes, yet there are like 7 episodes after that, but to them that is five minutes? You know what I mean. The way I interpreted it was that in those 7 episodes, everything happened super fast. Kind of like that book you mentioned, the battle is mili seconds, but it is a whole book, because of how fast they were battling.

[C.T.]

The way I interpreted that there were 7 episodes following the quote of blowing up Namek is FILLER! The battle didn't take that long. Hell in DBZ Kai, it was like...3 episodes, I believe?

[Guest Ruinus]

That is kind of impossible, the anime is weird about stuff like that, Frieza said Namek would blow up in five minutes, yet there are like 7 episodes after that, but to them that is five minutes? You know what I mean. The way I interpreted it was that in those 7 episodes, everything happened super fast. Kind of like that book you mentioned, the battle is mili seconds, but it is a whole book, because of how fast they were battling.

 

The bold part should tell you something about this argument then, specifically about the position some people take on the FTL side of this.

 

BTW, if everything happened super fast in those episodes, that means Bulma is also FTL? BTW as Nova Force Nova pointed out, how much of that is filler that was cut out in the more recent DBZ Kai?

[Guest Ruinus]

Goku moves faster than Buu can see which is a huge difference in general.

 

Moving faster than Buu can see =/= light speed of FTL, as you are already assuming something about Buu's reflexes.

 

Dude there has been a ton of pro FTL evidence and all the Con evidence is non cannon bull crap just saying.

 

Right, show it then, because as far as I know, all the examples that have been given so far have been, upon further inspection, based on faulty assumptions and wrong.

[Guest Ruinus]

Also, how long is this Mythbuster thing going to last? People have already had 4 pages to try to settle this and yet, nada.

[Guest Darksaiyajin345]

Moving faster than Buu can see =/= light speed of FTL, as you are already assuming something about Buu's reflexes.

 

 

 

Right, show it then, because as far as I know, all the examples that have been given so far have been, upon further inspection, based on faulty assumptions and wrong.

Faulty assumptions? Every thing I have used I've proved with cannon stuff outside of Gotenks flying around 5 times in a second and I used your numbers anyway.

50X multipliers proven in the Daizenshuu and the fact that 2 characters of equal power using the same transformation go up at the same rate.

Ki translates into speed and strength stated by Goku and Vegeta multiple times with the Kaioken and basic Zenkais.

The point was is that they don't see with there eyes they see the light of the energy around them (Explained by Piccolo) and they still lose sight of them.

And the thing is can you really show some one moving faster than simply vanishing so completely (As in it looks like teleportation.) From the senses of the deities of that universe

Also DBKAI should be trusted less than the DBZ funidub considering

DBKAI:snake way 1,000,000 miles

DBZ/DB manga:snake way 620,000 miles/or 1,000,000 km

Do I think ssj Goku when he fought Freeza is FTL no he isn't even light speed I did the math.

Snake way 620,000 miles/48 hours

Goku's speed 12,916 mph

KaioX2: 25,832 mph

KaioX3: 37,848 mph

KaioX4: 50,464 mph<-------Max saiyajin saga speed.

 

Goku vs freeza: Power level 3,000,000/ saiyajin arc 8,000=375

12,916X375=4,843,500 mph<------Base form

KaioX20: 96,870,000

Ssj (X50 proven by Daizenshuu): 242,175,000 mph<------Max Freeza saga speed.

Fast but light speed is 671,000,000 mph. However I don't think its to far fetched to think that Ssj3 Goku is FTL considering the multipliers and character statements on how they work back it up.

[Guest Ruinus]

This is getting tiring.

 

Faulty assumptions? Every thing I have used I've proved with cannon stuff outside of Gotenks flying around 5 times in a second and I used your numbers anyway.

 

Except that a single panel =/= 1 second.

The anime shows it occuring in 6 seconds.

 

50X multipliers proven in the Daizenshuu and the fact that 2 characters of equal power using the same transformation go up at the same rate.

 

Nope. The 50x multiplier was for Goku. I hope you understand how Goku =/= every other character.

 

Ki translates into speed and strength stated by Goku and Vegeta multiple times with the Kaioken and basic Zenkais.

 

And yet no FTL evidence in any fight, ever.

 

The point was is that they don't see with there eyes they see the light of the energy around them (Explained by Piccolo) and they still lose sight of them.

 

Eyesight is based on the light of an object bouncing off of the object and hitting our eyes. There is no difference between "I see through images" and "I see through light".

 

Losing sight of an object =/= light speed.

 

And the thing is can you really show some one moving faster than simply vanishing so completely (As in it looks like teleportation.) From the senses of the deities of that universe

Also DBKAI should be trusted less than the DBZ funidub considering

DBKAI:snake way 1,000,000 miles

DBZ/DB manga:snake way 620,000 miles/or 1,000,000 km

 

Simply because they are dieties doesn't mean they are all power and can't make mistakes. King Kai also *vulgarity*ed up when Namek was destroyed, so they are not infallible.

[Guest Ruinus]

Also DBKAI should be trusted less than the DBZ funidub considering

DBKAI:snake way 1,000,000 miles

DBZ/DB manga:snake way 620,000 miles/or 1,000,000 km

 

It's still the newest showing of the series.

 

However I don't think its to far fetched to think that Ssj3 Goku is FTL considering the multipliers and character statements on how they work back it up.

 

The 50x multiplier is only for Goku. Again Goku =/= every other character. He is consistently shown to surprise everyone with his ridiculous strenght and ability to surpass everyone's expectations when it comes to fighting. That Goku received a 50x doesn't mean everyone does.

 

Also, you consistently say "Well, the PL math shows this character should be light speed, yet you never show any visual evidence whatsoever.

 

Character statements don't matter, they can be wrong.

 

What, exactly, do you find so hard about the formula s=d/t? Why aren't you using it? Why, if all the characters SSJ3 Goku and above should be FTL, can you not cite on single shred of evidence? Your Gotenks example lies on your convenient "Well, comic panels have varying time, except this one which is exactly one minute", and ignores the anime which shows the exact same event occur over 6 seconds.

 

EDIT: Here's what. You say Goku SSJ3 should be FTL? Ok. Show it. IIRC, Goku SSJ3 only shows up to fight Buu (though I think in a movie he also goes SSJ3). So link me to a Youtube or video, tell me "look between this time and this time", guesstimate the distance. s=d/t.

[Guest Darksaiyajin345]

This is getting tiring.

 

 

 

Except that a single panel =/= 1 second.

The anime shows it occuring in 6 seconds.

 

 

 

Nope. The 50x multiplier was for Goku. I hope you understand how Goku =/= every other character.

 

 

 

And yet no FTL evidence in any fight, ever.

 

 

 

Eyesight is based on the light of an object bouncing off of the object and hitting our eyes. There is no difference between "I see through images" and "I see through light".

 

Losing sight of an object =/= light speed.

 

 

 

Simply because they are dieties doesn't mean they are all power and can't make mistakes. King Kai also *vulgarity*ed up when Namek was destroyed, so they are not infallible.

I hope you understand Gohan =/= Goku who was more powerful as a ssj1 than Goku Im not saying infallible but if you say they see things the same as humans then your wrong King kai also managed to keep track of Nappa and Vegeta's very FTL ships.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v18/c011/7.html

They see them but it is threw feeling chi and they still lose them

And dude I have been using distance divided by time but in there fight there is no land marks to go off of there in a random billion mile mountain range every time but the battle between Kid buu and Goku goes over the entire kaioshin planet. While you say I have shown you no proof you have shown me zero proof that here not.

[Guest Ruinus]

I hope you understand Gohan =/= Goku who was more powerful as a ssj1 than Goku

 

Glad to see you can contridict your own argument in the same breadth you try to defend it. This is exactly my point, everyone is different in the series, they all reach different peaks of power at different times with different amounts of effort. Goku's power level going from 3m to 150m doesn't mean everyone's pl jumps by the same amount.

 

Even if it did, you still haven't shown these characters goign FTL.

 

Im not saying infallible but if you say they see things the same as humans then your wrong King kai also managed to keep track of Nappa and Vegeta's very FTL ships.

 

How?

 

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v18/c011/7.html

They see them but it is threw feeling chi and they still lose them

 

Gohan loses sight of them.

Everyone can see them but you!

 

Also again, losing sight of them =/= light speed or higher.

 

And dude I have been using distance divided by time but in there fight there is no land marks to go off of there in a random billion mile mountain range every time but the battle between Kid buu and Goku goes over the entire kaioshin planet.

 

@bolded part: no you haven't. You took the distance of the Earth and then guessed 1 second from a still image and then ignore the more accurate time frame of 6 seconds shown by the anime. Also, you admit that you can't get a good distance reading on the landmarks... so you basically, you admit you don't know distance. Since speed is distance over time, and you admit you can't get a reading on distance how the hell can you claim they are FTL?

 

@Italicized part: proof?

 

While you say I have shown you no proof you have shown me zero proof that here not.

 

 

You have shown zero proof that Goku does not put on red lipstick, a pretty pink bow, sassy yellow shooting stars of love and ties flowers to his hair when he goes out to the clubs on Grab a Sailor Night.

[Helen C]

It may be silly CBUB arguing, but I <3 Ruinus.