*uncreative* Germany v. State of Israel

[Guest the atom]

This is an interesting thread I picked up on spacebattles. However for some reason I am unable to post anything on that site, so I will re post it here:

 

AU World War II:

- US patched things up with Japan, averting Pearl Harbor, is neutral

- Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact still in effect

- Nazis have invaded Middle East. Turkey is providing free passage. Malta, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan, Iraq, all under Axis control. Persia independent, neutral.

- Current year is 1944

 

Then an ROB moves in the State of Israel (circa 2011), including Israel proper, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights (but not the Gaza Strip), and Israel's own satellites. *uncreative* forces in the Middle East are comparable to their armies in Russia in OTL, and are led by Rommel. Israel has no useful allies, except maybe Fatah.

 

EDIT: Two other notes. One, Israel can use nukes. Two, Israel is bound by the IDF Code. So nuking Berlin is not an option.

 

(Thread credit goes to Meshakhad)

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Israel wins in the sense that Germany has no chance of successfully invading them. For one, the logistics involved in projecting a force anywhere near large enough to cause trouble for a modern Israel would be difficult to manage to say the least. German supply lines will be very stretched. In addition, a lot of their forces will be inexperienced in fighting in a desert environment. I suppose if there are any North Africa campaign veterans present that might not be the case for them, but it's a factor nonetheless.

 

The IDF's air power will allow them to cut the aforementioned stretched supply lines with relative impunity and ease, essentially "drawing a line in the sand" that will make any attempt at invading them nothing short of an absolute disaster. And the Israeli Navy, while somewhat small, is more than sufficient to defend against any attempt at an amphibious invasion or naval bombardment. Large-bore cannons and crude radar is a mismatch against radar-guided anti-ship missiles and advanced electronic, sensor, and navigation capabilities. As far as air power goes, the Luftwaffe have nothing on modern air defense or fighter aircraft. If the Germans do somehow miraculously get ground troops within the range of IDF ground forces, they'll still get decimated. A whole group of Tiger IIs, arguably one of the most powerful tanks of the war, would be nothing but so much target practice for even a single Merkava IV in the open desert.

 

However, the IDF, as utterly effective as they are at waging defensive wars, is not large enough to sustain long-range offensive operations. They would be incapable of launching a meaningful counterattack such as an invasion. Since nukes are allowed, their best bet would probably be to annihilate any attacking German forces, warning against further aggression. If the Wehrmacht still prove stubborn, the IDF can use air and naval power to bombard high-value targets deep inside Germany. Finally, if all else fails, there's always the nuclear option. Obviously the IDF can't destroy every German military asset out there, but they can easily defend their own territory and do some devastating surgical strikes inside German territory in response. Eventually, Germany's troops will lose the will to fight. You can only expect your troops to keep fighting a foe that seems to them to be near-Godlike for a short while before they say "You know what? Screw this".

 

It's worth noting that Israel has won against worse odds, with the Yom Kippur War and Six Days War being shining examples. In each case, they successfully fended off attacks from the forces of multiple countries who launched surprise assaults. In both cases, the Israelis actually won (tactically) before the wars ended. Those situations were much worse than this one: multiple nations, surprise attacks from various directions, actual borders with the enemy, and considerably less of a technological disparity between them and their foes. True, the Arab forces did have some flaws, and yes, the IDF has waned in readiness since those glory days, but the point stands. If Israel could handle those odds, how do you think they'll deal with a foe that is even more outmatched than the Arabs were?

[ND7]

(I'm confused wouldn't the U.S defend Isreal?)

 

Also, Rommel gave the British a hard time, and in my opnion, was the best comander the Nazis had. Even though Isreal's armies are quite tough, with Rommel leading the Germans, I don't think the Isrealrites will win this. Perhaps, if Rommel gets killed, will Isreal's chances increase. But, if he isn't taken out I don't think Isreal is gonna win this.

 

After seeing Jason's post I, have decided that I will stay out of this topic...Damn man your great at debating.. But like I said, wouldn't the U.S try to defend Isreal? Nevermind, just noticed the post that said the U.S is neutral.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

(I'm confused wouldn't the U.S defend Isreal?)

 

Also, Rommel gave the British a hard time, and in my opnion, was the best comander the Nazis had. Even though Isreal's armies are quite tough, with Rommel leading the Germans, I don't think the Isrealrites will win this. Perhaps, if Rommel gets killed, will Isreal's chances increase. But, if he isn't taken out I don't think Isreal is gonna win this.

 

After seeing Jason's post I, have decided that I will stay out of this topic...Damn man your great at debating.. But like I said, wouldn't the U.S try to defend Isreal?

 

No, not with this timeline. Israel will just be some random country that appeared. The U.S. doesn't have any commitment to it like they do in real life. Besides, they'll be wanting to keep with their isolationist doctrine. I could possibly see them trying to forge friendly diplomatic relations with Israel after seeing the kind of technology they have at their disposal, but not at the risk of getting involved in a war.

 

Rommel was good, but he's not a magician. He's a talented field commander, but this is a completely out-of-context problem for him. The Israelis are known for being very good tacticians and strategists themselves, particularly where operations in their territory/region are involved. Besides, they have access to history books. They'll know precisely what kind of man Rommel was, and what kind of doctrine his troops used. Not that they'll need it; the advantages they're playing with here are ridiculous that even a halfway-competent force could prevail, and the Israelis are way more than that in this context. It's not like Rommel can wish away the logistical issues involved in such a long overland trek, nor the tactical problems involved with engaging a tank (which moves faster than yours on and off-road) that laughs off multiple direct hits from your most powerful ordnance and then destroys your most heavily-armored tanks from two miles away while on the move with a single shot through its frontal armor, something that to tank commanders of Rommel's day would seem to be a feat on par with walking on water that you just turned into wine with a snap of your fingers.

 

Besides, if all else fails, there's little to stop Israel from simply using a decapitation/surgical strike to eliminate Rommel from the equation. The OP specified that satellite coverage and the like is present -- eventually they'll find Rommel and remove him via an airstrike.

[Guest thetrekker]

*Bro-hugs Jason*

[Guest Jason Redfield]

*Bro-hugs Jason*

 

Heh, thanks.

[Guest the atom]

Interesting. The folks on spacebattles seemed more in favour of the Israelis. While I more then agree that Israel will take this I doubt it will be easy. *uncreative* Germany had a truly massive military, and were more then willing to bring all of it to bear. However I'm having extreme difficulty finding any useful data regarding the numbers of ground forces and aircraft anywhere at the moment and it is getting late. If somebody could do so for me that would be useful.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Interesting. The folks on spacebattles seemed more in favour of the Israelis. While I more then agree that Israel will take this I doubt it will be easy. *uncreative* Germany had a truly massive military, and were more then willing to bring all of it to bear. However I'm having extreme difficulty finding any useful data regarding the numbers of ground forces and aircraft anywhere at the moment and it is getting late. If somebody could do so for me that would be useful.

 

Yeah, I actually saw this topic on SB (I'm a member there). A good point was brought up -- Israel has a limited time to convince Germany to *vulgarity* off. With their international trading and supply partners gone, they have only what manufacturing capabilities lie within their borders to rely on. Rationing will happen and happen quickly. I think they have enough munitions and supplies to hold out for the amount of time sufficient to give Germany a bloody nose that convinces their troops to stop fighting, however.

 

It's not just the size of the military and their willingness to bring it to bear, it's whether they have the logistical capability to do so effectively. My money's on "no", at least, not to a degree that will really put Israel in any severe danger. Although, I could be wrong on that point.

[Guest the atom]

Israel wins in the sense that Germany has no chance of successfully invading them. For one, the logistics involved in projecting a force anywhere near large enough to cause trouble for a modern Israel would be difficult to manage to say the least. German supply lines will be very stretched. In addition, a lot of their forces will be inexperienced in fighting in a desert environment. I suppose if there are any North Africa campaign veterans present that might not be the case for them, but it's a factor nonetheless.

 

The IDF's air power will allow them to cut the aforementioned stretched supply lines with relative impunity and ease, essentially "drawing a line in the sand" that will make any attempt at invading them nothing short of an absolute disaster. And the Israeli Navy, while somewhat small, is more than sufficient to defend against any attempt at an amphibious invasion or naval bombardment. Large-bore cannons and crude radar is a mismatch against Harpoon guided anti-ship missiles and advanced electronic, sensor, and navigation capabilities. As far as air power goes, the Luftwaffe have nothing on modern air defense or fighter aircraft. If the Germans do somehow miraculously get ground troops within the range of IDF ground forces, they'll still get decimated. A whole group of Tiger IIs, arguably one of the most powerful tanks of the war, would be nothing but so much target practice for even a single Merkava IV in the open desert.

 

However, the IDF, as utterly effective as they are at waging defensive wars, is not large enough to sustain long-range offensive operations. They would be incapable of launching a meaningful counterattack such as an invasion. Since nukes are allowed, their best bet would probably be to annihilate any attacking German forces, warning against further aggression. If the Wehrmacht still prove stubborn, the IDF can use air and naval power to bombard high-value targets deep inside Germany. Finally, if all else fails, there's always the nuclear option. Obviously the IDF can't destroy every German military asset out there, but they can easily defend their own territory and do some devastating surgical strikes inside German territory in response. Eventually, Germany's troops will lose the will to fight. You can only expect your troops to keep fighting a foe that seems to them to be near-Godlike for a short while before they say "You know what? Screw this".

 

It's worth noting that Israel has won against worse odds, with the Yom Kippur War and Six Days War being shining examples. In each case, they successfully fended off attacks from the forces of multiple countries who launched surprise assaults. In both cases, the Israelis actually won (tactically) before the wars ended. Those situations were much worse than this one: multiple nations, surprise attacks from various directions, actual borders with the enemy, and considerably less of a technological disparity between them and their foes. True, the Arab forces did have some flaws, but the point stands. If Israel could handle those odds, how do you think they'll deal with a foe that is even more outmatched than the Arabs were?

 

Not that I disagree, but to play a devil's advocate, how long could Israel sustain a defence against a massive army like the Wehrmacht? Considering that they have now been plopped into the past, they have no allies, military, economic or otherwise. Couldn't the Wehrmacht continue to throw bodies at israel until they choke? Resupplying would be a serious problem for the IDF, as nobody else would be making their types of advanced weaponry. Would their own arms industry be able to catch up?

 

You might say that the German troops would simply give up at one point, but remember also the power of ideology. It wouldn't be the first time The Third Reich had thrown them into a suicidal meat grinder.

 

But of course the Mossad is legendary even in our own time. I imagine the assassination of *uncreative* and most of his command would be an easy task for them.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Not that I disagree, but to play a devil's advocate, how long could Israel sustain a defence against a massive army like the Wehrmacht? Considering that they have now been plopped into the past, they have no allies, military, economic or otherwise. Couldn't the Wehrmacht continue to throw bodies at israel until they choke? Resupplying would be a serious problem for the IDF, as nobody else would be making their types of advanced weaponry. Would their own arms industry be able to catch up?

 

You might say that the German troops would simply give up at one point, but remember also the power of ideology. It wouldn't be the first time The Third Reich had thrown them into a suicidal meat grinder.

 

But of course the Mossad is legendary even in our own time. I imagine the assassination of *uncreative* and most of his command would be an easy task for them.

 

I really don't know, to be honest. I wouldn't feel comfortable giving a rough estimate. It's a good point though -- Israel faces their own logistical problems, but if all else fails, they still have the advantage of physical distance and terrain familiarity, and those will not change regardless of how long the war drags on.

 

True, German troops weren't pushovers when it came to discipline and belief in their cause (generally speaking). But they weren't all crazy and suicidal, either. There's a difference in being asked to march into the cold wastelands of Russia to fight an enemy that's more or less like you and being asked to march hundreds upon hundreds of miles through the desert to a country that is unleashing hell the likes of which you and your superiors have never seen before. Like I said before, it's an out-of-context problem for the Germans and a big blow to morale. That's not even considering what effect a nuclear detonation will have on their mindset, to say nothing of multiple detonations.

 

It's worth noting that the assassination of Adolf may actually be counter-productive in the grand scheme of things.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Israel has this. Any attacking German troops would fall like weeds to the scythe against the superior Israeli tech. The Germans have very little chance here.

[Guest force_echo]

Wait what? What kind of time frame is this? 1944 but Israel has nukes? Hell, 1944 and Israel is a COUNTRY? Is this some kind of alternate future? Need some kind of time frame or something to base this on.

[Guest the atom]

Wait what? What kind of time frame is this? 1944 but Israel has nukes? Hell, 1944 and Israel is a COUNTRY? Is this some kind of alternate future? Need some kind of time frame or something to base this on.

 

The reason or context isn't that important. Let's just say that modern Israel has suddenly appeared out of nowhere and now *uncreative* Germany is attacking it. But since when was context that majorly important in the cbub?

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Wait what? What kind of time frame is this? 1944 but Israel has nukes? Hell, 1944 and Israel is a COUNTRY? Is this some kind of alternate future? Need some kind of time frame or something to base this on.

 

Did you read all of the OP?

 

"Then an ROB moves in the State of Israel (circa 2011), including Israel proper, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights (but not the Gaza Strip), and Israel's own satellites."

 

Basically, it's a slightly-modified WW2 timeline in which the U.S. never got involved and the Germans tried making gains in the Middle East. Then a modern Israel gets plopped down in the middle of it.

[Guest force_echo]

If its modern Israel vs. WWII Germany. Then ofc Israel wins, its not even a competition.

[Guest Kernpin]

I'm a pretty intense wargammer and I always love a good "what if" and this one's a doozey. I've done a lot of thinking along these lines, like what if the USS Nimitz HAD hit the Japanese fleet minutes before Pearl Harbor (in the film "The Final Countdown") and declared war against Japan (by themselves). SO, here's what I think about this scenario.

 

If the USA stayed neutral, the USSR honored the non-aggression pact and Germany did well otherwise in their campaigns, I think Germany might win. I think a WW2 Germany would take a severe beating but would eventually just thru sheer numbers wear a modern Israel down. Israel wouldn't ever surrender, they would have to be crushed. They could probably force an uneasy truce. BUT....

 

The ironic thing about this is, if a 2011 TO&E IDF is used, is the submarine fleet. The Israeli Navy has German built, Dolphin class subs. They are ultra modern, extremely quiet and cruise missile platforms. They have both wet & dry spec ops compartments and they fire a modified version of the Harpoon SLCM. The modification according to Jane's is a nuclear payload. I believe a couple of these could easily slip past the WW2 era Kreigsmarine, drop commando teams anywhere, then slam high priority targets in Germany with cruise missiles and a couple of nukes to make their statement. I doubt 1940s era German ASW gear and techniques could filter a modern boomer from background noise (just a guess).

 

The IAF would most likely rule the roost. Modern aircraft with "look down-shoot down" capability would knock 1940s piston powered aircraft out of the sky in droves. But the Germans were working on air to air missiles (Kramer X-4 & Henschel HS-298) and surface to air missiles (Bachem Ba-349 and the Henschel HS-117) late in the war and they already had a type of anti-ship ALCM they used to good effect in the Med. Theater that was also used against bridges a few times called the Henschel HS-293.

 

Germany had zero strategic bombers. They relied on divebombers (JU-87 was outdated by 1942) and medium twin engined aircraft like the JU-88 (basically a fighter-bomber) that had small payloads. Had they done well and avoided the massive 24/7 bombings the RAF and the USAAF inflicted, the Horton Bros flying wing which made several glide and piston powered flight tests might have went into production giving them a stealth jet powered strategic bomber (looks like a USAF B-2 Spirit).

 

ME-109s and FW-190s would be swept from the sky, but the ME-262 could have maybe held its own against a modern aircraft. In Vietnam the NVAAF flew the Mig-15, Mig-17 and Mig-19 to great effect against more advanced American aircraft by catching them heavily laden (full fuel main tank, full drop tanks, bomb load, missiles) and another tactic was to lure a high performance aircraft into a "low-n-slow" dogfight, no missiles (Mig-15 & 17 didn't carry them). The Migs had superior agility at slow speeds and low altitudes, the US planes risked stalling. Even after the F-4 entered the war and was refitted with guns they still had trouble with the 1950s era Migs. The Mig-21 carried atoll missiles and wasn't a good dogfighter. The low-n-slow tactic can be countered with a varible geometry wing aircraft (F-111, F-14, Tornado Gr-4, Mig-23/27 etc) or a thrust vectoring aircraft like the new 5th gen aircraft (F-22, various Mig and Sukhoi planes).

 

Also the Luftwaffe had the Arado 234, a twin engined jet light bomber that set 2 airspeed records about 600mph. Impossible to catch by aircraft of the day. In fact an AR-234 was the last Luftwaffe aircraft to fly a mission over England in Apr 1945. This and the ME-262 might hold out long enough against the IAF for more advance aircraft to reach the lines, like the ME-P.1101 which was a swing-wing single seat jet fighter that used many existing parts (landing gear, slightly modified wings, etc) The IAF has their share of veteran pilots and more than a few aces but the Luftwaffe had hundreds of pilots that had unbelievable amounts of aerial victories (Eric Hartmann alone had 352) and eventually I think German technology would almost catch up if the war dragged on.

 

As far as armored battles go, the IDF tanks would initially kill whatever they ran across. Even an old Ti-55 (captured T-54 or T-55 refitted with a Detroit Diesel, British L-7 105mm rifled maingun and blazer armor) would fire an APFSDS-DU round and punch radioactive holes in anything that even remotely sounds like "panzer", From PzKw I thru VIb to Elefant and Maus. But the Germans were working on optical guided ATGMs like the Kramer X-7 , the Peipenkopf and the Pinsel. The first real tank the Jerries captured like a Merkava or even an M-60A3TTS w/blazer or M-48A5 ugraded to 60A3 specs w/blazer would be copied like they did with the T-34 (origins of the PzKw V "Panther") The Germans fought very well against tanks that were superior like the T-34/76, T-34/85, KV-1c, KV-85, SU-100, JSU-152, JS-1 & 2 and countered very shortly with their own better versions (just not enough of them).

 

Plus Germany had designed submersible towed platforms that would allow U-boats to launch V-2s at sea and they more than likely would have had a few A-bombs themselves by early 1946 maybe sooner if allied bombings hadn't disrupted nearly every aspect of the German war effort.

 

It would be a haul for Israel. They could win if they ended it quickly and not let it drag out. But the longer it goes the more in the favor of Germany the winds of fortune sway. Germany had 1 secret weapon before WW2 broke out that they never used. In fact they were kind of scared of it because it was brand new, and developed entirely by accident. If they fought a high tech, well disciplined war machine like the modern IDF... I bet it would be on rockets in no time, specially if Germany got hit with tac nukes.

[Guest the atom]

I'm a pretty intense wargammer and I always love a good "what if" and this one's a doozey. I've done a lot of thinking along these lines, like what if the USS Nimitz HAD hit the Japanese fleet minutes before Pearl Harbor (in the film "The Final Countdown") and declared war against Japan (by themselves). SO, here's what I think about this scenario.

 

If the USA stayed neutral, the USSR honored the non-aggression pact and Germany did well otherwise in their campaigns, I think Germany might win. I think a WW2 Germany would take a severe beating but would eventually just thru sheer numbers wear a modern Israel down. Israel wouldn't ever surrender, they would have to be crushed. They could probably force an uneasy truce. BUT....

 

The ironic thing about this is, if a 2011 TO&E IDF is used, is the submarine fleet. The Israeli Navy has German built, Dolphin class subs. They are ultra modern, extremely quiet and cruise missile platforms. They have both wet & dry spec ops compartments and they fire a modified version of the Harpoon SLCM. The modification according to Jane's is a nuclear payload. I believe a couple of these could easily slip past the WW2 era Kreigsmarine, drop commando teams anywhere, then slam high priority targets in Germany with cruise missiles and a couple of nukes to make their statement. I doubt 1940s era German ASW gear and techniques could filter a modern boomer from background noise (just a guess).

 

The IAF would most likely rule the roost. Modern aircraft with "look down-shoot down" capability would knock 1940s piston powered aircraft out of the sky in droves. But the Germans were working on air to air missiles (Kramer X-4 & Henschel HS-298) and surface to air missiles (Bachem Ba-349 and the Henschel HS-117) late in the war and they already had a type of anti-ship ALCM they used to good effect in the Med. Theater that was also used against bridges a few times called the Henschel HS-293.

 

Germany had zero strategic bombers. They relied on divebombers (JU-87 was outdated by 1942) and medium twin engined aircraft like the JU-88 (basically a fighter-bomber) that had small payloads. Had they done well and avoided the massive 24/7 bombings the RAF and the USAAF inflicted, the Horton Bros flying wing which made several glide and piston powered flight tests might have went into production giving them a stealth jet powered strategic bomber (looks like a USAF B-2 Spirit).

 

ME-109s and FW-190s would be swept from the sky, but the ME-262 could have maybe held its own against a modern aircraft. In Vietnam the NVAAF flew the Mig-15, Mig-17 and Mig-19 to great effect against more advanced American aircraft by catching them heavily laden (full fuel main tank, full drop tanks, bomb load, missiles) and another tactic was to lure a high performance aircraft into a "low-n-slow" dogfight, no missiles (Mig-15 & 17 didn't carry them). The Migs had superior agility at slow speeds and low altitudes, the US planes risked stalling. Even after the F-4 entered the war and was refitted with guns they still had trouble with the 1950s era Migs. The Mig-21 carried atoll missiles and wasn't a good dogfighter. The low-n-slow tactic can be countered with a varible geometry wing aircraft (F-111, F-14, Tornado Gr-4, Mig-23/27 etc) or a thrust vectoring aircraft like the new 5th gen aircraft (F-22, various Mig and Sukhoi planes).

 

Also the Luftwaffe had the Arado 234, a twin engined jet light bomber that set 2 airspeed records about 600mph. Impossible to catch by aircraft of the day. In fact an AR-234 was the last Luftwaffe aircraft to fly a mission over England in Apr 1945. This and the ME-262 might hold out long enough against the IAF for more advance aircraft to reach the lines, like the ME-P.1101 which was a swing-wing single seat jet fighter that used many existing parts (landing gear, slightly modified wings, etc) The IAF has their share of veteran pilots and more than a few aces but the Luftwaffe had hundreds of pilots that had unbelievable amounts of aerial victories (Eric Hartmann alone had 352) and eventually I think German technology would almost catch up if the war dragged on.

 

As far as armored battles go, the IDF tanks would initially kill whatever they ran across. Even an old Ti-55 (captured T-54 or T-55 refitted with a Detroit Diesel, British L-7 105mm rifled maingun and blazer armor) would fire an APFSDS-DU round and punch radioactive holes in anything that even remotely sounds like "panzer", From PzKw I thru VIb to Elefant and Maus. But the Germans were working on optical guided ATGMs like the Kramer X-7 , the Peipenkopf and the Pinsel. The first real tank the Jerries captured like a Merkava or even an M-60A3TTS w/blazer or M-48A5 ugraded to 60A3 specs w/blazer would be copied like they did with the T-34 (origins of the PzKw V "Panther") The Germans fought very well against tanks that were superior like the T-34/76, T-34/85, KV-1c, KV-85, SU-100, JSU-152, JS-1 & 2 and countered very shortly with their own better versions (just not enough of them).

 

Plus Germany had designed submersible towed platforms that would allow U-boats to launch V-2s at sea and they more than likely would have had a few A-bombs themselves by early 1946 maybe sooner if allied bombings hadn't disrupted nearly every aspect of the German war effort.

 

It would be a haul for Israel. They could win if they ended it quickly and not let it drag out. But the longer it goes the more in the favor of Germany the winds of fortune sway. Germany had 1 secret weapon before WW2 broke out that they never used. In fact they were kind of scared of it because it was brand new, and developed entirely by accident. If they fought a high tech, well disciplined war machine like the modern IDF... I bet it would be on rockets in no time, specially if Germany got hit with tac nukes.

 

Interesting Vietnam tidbit. Though I still fail to see how even an ME-262 could get around the whole 'missiles that fire from 90 kilometres away and seek with pin point accuracy' aspect of an F-15. Also, were there even enough to make a difference?

 

Also, simply because the Germans were developing SAMs and AAMs, doesn't mean they were necessarily effective. Any targeting system would be rudimentary compared to modern hardware to say the least, and modern fighter jets could outmaneuver them easily.

 

Once again, simply because they possessed technology that we use today does not necessarily mean it was even remotely effective by comparison. While ME-P.1101 and the Arado 234 were extremely advanced and effective in their own time, 600 miles an hour is considered almost standing still in an age where jets such as the F-15, and the F-16 can go up to mach 2.

 

While German tank crews were skilled, fighting against a tank that can one hit you from two miles away while moving is impossible.

 

The V2 is a dinosaur compared to modern cruise missiles, and Israeli defence systems would probably be able to shoot them down with not much difficulty.

 

The only thing the Germans really have going for them is sheer weight of numbers. In every other aspect the IDF has total dominance. Considering IDF war doctrine they will end the war quickly, through nearly any means at their disposal.

[Guest Kernpin]

I'm almost certain the Luftwaffe would pull the same tactics the NVAAF did in Vietnam.

 

They would force the fights into low-n-slow engagements, where F-15s & F-16s can't use any of their advantages. An F-15 is a large, heavy, high speed aircraft and has to maintain a certain airspeed or stall. The long range radar guided missiles would take out medium to high alt aircraft at long ranges but ground clutter would confuse the seekers once the target hits the deck. Phil Handley an USAF jet ace (only supersonic gun kill on record) said on History Channel's "Dogfights" series that radar ground clutter is like looking into clabbered milk. The F-15 would have to hope to get a shorter range heat seeker to lock on. But a low jinking target is hard to hit even for a missile. The IAF have never relied much on missiles, they make gun kills (look up Giora Epstein) and for a high speed designed aircraft to get in position to gun kill a slower aircraft it has to either make short runs/passes at it from above (hard to do if he's jinking), come in head-on and hope he doesen't get you instead(look up Skyraider vs Migs, USN prop driven divebombers shot down NVAAF jets) or they have to get in behind the target. This would be hard to do because the AR-234 for instance can stay airborne at a much lower speed than the F-15. The F-15 comes in behind with enough airspeed to keep lift on his wings then he overshoots the target and the target gets a free shot at him as he passes by or target banks sharply left or right forcing the faster plane to swing around for another go (burning fuel) or go to "perch" (go high alt, beyond the enemy's MSC and circle waiting for an opening to use a short range missile or make a run with the guns again. Another tactic used in a dogfight against a much slower aircraft is a "Split S" a corkscrew like maneuver that trades distance for speed. You fly faster and cover more ground but don't overtake the slower target. But you have to have altitude to do it. IAF jet ace Giora Epstein is interviewed in a video on youtube about an Egyptian Mig 21 pilot that tried it too low against his Mirage III. But being "low tech" is not always a disadvantage. Jets burn more fuel the lower they fly to the ground than they do at high altitudes. Pilots with "bingo" fuel always go high to conserve (high unless suborbital is dangerous in today's combat)

 

Plus the Germans would try to hit IAF aircraft taking off or landing (what the allies did to the German's jets). Hit them while they were heavy with fuel/ordnance.

 

It wouldn't take Adolf Galland and Hans-Ulrich Rudel (greatest combat pilot of all time in any era BBC video on youtube) or Eric Hartmann long to figure out what to do against superior aircraft (if they didn't get shot down before hand).

 

The only thing that kept Germany from having overwhelming numbers of advanced aircraft like the ME-262, AR-234, He-162 and ME-P.1101 is the heavy bombing the USAAF did. The 8th AAF flew multiple sorties of 1,000 planes B-17s/B-24s/B-25s. That's 1,000 strategic bombers against 1 target like the Bremen shipyards. But farther south on the same day, another 1,000 hit the Messerschmitt plant or the Junkers plant where the Jumo jet engines are made. Father south yet, 700 more planes hit the V-2 and ME-163 construction and launch facilities. If it wasn't for that the Luftwaffe would have had air superiority over Europe. The ME-262 was available way earlier than when it saw service. The High Command didn't want to switch production from designs that worked well, they expected what that had would last untill the war was over. They didn't count on T-34 tanks and Yak-9s and P-51s and 1,000 plane raids. If they did expect that the Horton bomber and fighter flying wings would have been in production before the war started. So if Germany was doing well with no allied carpet bombing they would probably have large numbers of these aircraft.

 

The Mig-15 was built in 1947 from ME-262 Mikoyan-Gurevich Design Bureau studied. It had a max airspeed of 668 mph; climb rate of 9,480 ft/min; a max ceiling of 50,850 ft; no radar; was not missile capable but carried two 23mm autocannons w/ 160 rds and one 37mm cannon w/ 40 rds.

 

The Mig-19 was developed from the 15 and 17 and was built in 1953 and had a max airspeed of 909 mph; climb rate of 35,425 ft/min; a max ceiling of 57,400 ft; No radar or missiles (Soviet AF version could carry four K-13 AAMs) and had three 30mm autocannons w/ 205 rds.

 

The US F-4 started in 1960 and saw combat in 1965. max airspeed 1,472 mph; climb rate 41,300 ft/min; max ceiling 60,000 ft it carried too many combinations of AAMs to list but had both radar and heat seekers, it had a 20mm vulcan minigun w 640 rds and had advanced radar.

 

Yet the NVAAF Migs weren't even supersonic but used tactics that destroyed a lot of the more advanced American aircraft like the F-105, F-4 and F-8 (Navy's Crusader).

 

One thing I forget to mention the German Army had infrared tank sights and had numbers of Panther tanks equipped. If they hadn't been bombed 24/7 USAAF by day and RAF by night (Soviets had did no strategic bombing, their AF supported ground opns)

 

I think the Germans would win, eventually or IDF would force a draw. I wish I had a simulation of this contest. I used to be able to take the old Avalon Hill boardgames and cobble together what if scenarios. Like Patton's drive on the Rhine TO&E vs Tolbuhkin's 3rd Ukrainian Front but I don't have anything with modern IDF that I could convert stats over. I do have a copy of Challenger 2000 that I might be able to convert a few WW 2 vehicles to. But it would take forever and alot of math. Not like using Panzer Leader counters and Panzerblitz counters together.