Ivan

At least Booster spent time with the Giffen/DeMatteis league. Azrael isn't even from the right decade.

Yes, please keep barking up that same tree. I'm not interested in arguing about what you think Superman can do. It's as simple as that. I keep telling you guys to let it go, I have never once tried to defend the content of my original post, because the simple truth is that it doesn't need defending. All those things have happened separately in comics, from Flash succumbing to a single-shot surprise attack to Wonder Woman being held by an inferior opponent to Superman not destroying North America every time his eardrums bleed. I just rearranged them in a new order. If this bothers you, I'm sorry. It wasn't even that creative a strategy- I could have had Forge hack Skeets, or Illyana shatter the GL power ring with the Soulsword, or Danger infect the JLA with the transmode virus. I kept it simple and factual. All those things have happened. In JLA comic books. The second damned JLA story ever, Dr Light uses a "teleport them all to different places" strategy to temporarily beat the League. I'm sorry I don't have time and energy to sort through a basement full of longboxes to find individual issues and scan them just to win some dick-waving contest on CBUB. You want to argue that the JLA comes back afterward, yes of course they do. it's easy to infinitely say "nuh-uh" to anything anyone ever posts. (Come to that, it's also easy to feign offense at being called dummy on the internet. I could've gone with obtuse prick- which is fair because only an obtuse prick would insist on creating an argument where none exists- but I kept it light and silly.) I'm not saying I'm right because I'm special or exempt. I'm saying I'm right because look, I told you the story and that's the way it turned out. It's right there in front of your eyes. Trying to pick that apart is tantamount to not understanding the point of writing the strategy in the first place. Get with the program, my boy! I wrote a strategy which, in all fairness, isn't a very good story (it lacks an ending.) However, it contains 100% recycled elements from actual DC comics. Y'all wrote a strategy first ("PC-Superman solos.") which is no story at all and contains 100% recycled arguments from the last 30 threads you've posted on. Getting riled up because I gave my story a different ending and insisting that I "defend" that story is selfish and dumb. I've seen Pre-Crisis Superman lose to both Ambush Bug and Skeletor on occasion (again, temporarily) so don't tell me the X Men have zero chance because yes they freaking do I just told you how it would play out in the comics. Again, there is no debate. There is an idea that works, and an attempt at an argument. You win the argument, because I'm not participating in it.

There are not "flaws" in my "argument" because I made no argument, dummy. This is not a debate. You don't seem to know about Mort Weisinger or Julius Schwartz era Superman, (as is evidenced by quoting 90's crossovers as examples of "Pre-Crisis" anything.) Superman tallied up a string of second-act losses in the 50's, 60's, and 70's because that's a pretty generic staple in comic book story telling, hero loses first, then wins later. Yes, Superman would survive and eventually return. Do I really need an asterisk saying "The status quo would be returned by the end of the issue?" If you're looking for a discussion on pre-crisis comics, read some first. Look at the early JLA, Cave/Satellite era, the whole team is involved in nearly every story, and they get the distress call scenario more than once. They're bringing effing Aquaman into space. The idea that Superman can't experience a surprise attack without destroying everything around him is easily disproved as well, by the hundreds of times where that doesn't happen. Additionally, there is no need to "lure" anyone anywhere. These are Silver Age heroes, all you have to do is ask nicely. To sum up, I'm right because I wrote the darned thing. It's that simple. That is how the story goes, and this is not fodder for debate. We all know you've got a spreadsheet and a list of backhanded compliments prepared. Please save them for an actual debate.

Just to be clear, the strategy was designed to be "how this would happen in a crossover" and not "foolproof CBUB debate fodder." The strategy I wrote is one that could easily appear in comics without anyone calling foul for the way the respective characters were handled. (There are no instances of the Pre-Crisis JLA acting as paranoid and aggressive as they do in the counter-argument.) Again, I know how things work around here, and characters are never measured by a spectrum of appearance-averages (or even the character creator's opinion,) but rather against some theoretical threshold potential based around single-panel excerpts taken years apart. That is the reality of the CBUB.

At first, second, and third glances, knowing how CBUB commenters are (everything is "relatively easy" for the winning side, and every single match is assumed to be combatants charging at one-another across an empty football field,) you aren't going to get anyone who is willing to take up the X Men torch. I will write a strategy where the X Men win. It hinges on the foreknowledge and prep time, removing characters from the fight rather than straight-up beating them, as well as the idea that Pre-Crisis JLA comes with Pre-Crisis ethics (package deal.) The fight starts with the X-Men, who have a strategy, luring the JLA into complacency by begging them for help. Thus a speed takedown is out of the question, since Pre Crisis heroes have to, you know, act like heroes. The X Men take the JLA to different rooms in the mansion. Divide and conquer. The first concern is obviously Superman. Siryn hits his super-hearing with a sonic blast. Ouch. Forge has built a Phantom Zone projector, and it's waiting to zap the distracted Supes. Similarly, J'onn is a problem. Emma blocks his telepathy so he can't warn the team, and Danger/Forge have designed a room lined with flamethrowers to keep him contained. Danger serves as his warden for the duration. Northstar is just fast enough to tag Flash, so a few Nightcrawler teleports to disorient and exhaust the scarlet speedster, and then Northstar knocks him out. Gambit can lend Northstar some kinetic energy if he needs the boost. Wonder Woman is another concern, so Colossus grabs her, and Illyana teleports her to Limbo. The most dangerous JLA member left is Hal, the Pre-Crisis version of whom is susceptible to the color yellow. Box in a room full of yellow stuff is an easy solution. Let Azrael fight Frenzy, he doesn't have anything that can damage her. M walks over Vixen, and Namor easily subdues Aquaman. Oh no, we still have Batman left! Relax. This is Pre-Crisis Batman, before the Grant Morrison/Mark Waid nonsense. Yes he's a master detective and martial artist, but he's still quite bound by the limits of being a dude without powers. He's also fighting Cyclops and Havok, who can shoot at him as much as they like without worrying about hitting one-another (and who are no slouches in the combat department.) If they're not up to it, Frenzy and M are done with their fights and come lend a hand. Meanwhile, Hope, the ultimate cheap-ass plot device, is free to do whatever. ******************************************************** There is a scenario where the X Men you mentioned could temporarily "beat" the JLA listed above.

DC comics characters are at least aware of the existence of mutants- Grant Morrison's JLA run had a lovely, memorable story about a character named Tomorrow Woman. While she turned out to be an android, she introduced herself as a psychic mutant, born with a four lobed brain. None of the JLA batted an eye at that explanation, so I can only assume it's a standard superpower concept in the DCU.

What xman4life lacks in apparent taste, he makes up for in enthusiasm re: all things mutant-related.

Precinct 10 from Top 10. The only improvement would be for Alan Moore to write more stories. Everyone in Astro City. Again, only improved by more Busiek.

Do Jadzia Dax

Here's a list of the rings and what they do.

Dr Doomsday continues to be the funniest looking thing I've ever seen.

To be fair, it's really unclear in the Manga whether that exchange actually took place or whether it was a bit of puffery by Kamesenin and his pupil.

I think the point was made sloppily, but the Dragonball fans do have one. There is no "real world" equivalent to moving one's entire body so fast that it becomes impossible to follow. Hands and feet, maybe, but the "after image" technique is something children in the DBZ universe seem capable of mastering, and it pointedly requires no special power other than speed to accomplish. Jackie Chan is an incredibly fast martial artist, but Jackie Chan cannot do anything close to what is described in the Kuririn/Jackie Chun fight. The characters are already well beyond the limits of human abilities at that point. Now DBZ physics are really wonky and it could be argued that the fundamental properties of things like light and gravity make doing those things much easier than they would be in the DC comics universe, but Kid Goku routinely pulls feats of (short range) travel speed, reflexes, and agility which suggest that he's well beyond any of the dismissive downplay mentioned in this thread. At the same time, Superman and J'onn could birth a main-sequence star using nothing but heat vision. There isn't an attack in all of Dragonball/Z/GT that could do that.

He created a home workout system in the 50's and all his ads (found in the backs of magazines) were cartoons of scrawny guys getting humiliated at the beach, using his system, and coming back to take revenge on the bully. I believe this was the inspiration for Grant Morrison's seminal masterpiece Flex Mentallo.

My loathing for tvtropes is well-documented, but I'll admit I had to chuckle at the title of that article... I wonder how many tropers have any idea who Charles Atlas is?

Again, I have to point out that there are some really amazing stories out there concerning very powerful characters. Walt Simonson's entire run on Thor is legendary, you've got characters like Odin and Surtur and Hel all over the place, but it doesn't lose any of its emotional impact. It is notable that this is not the most powerful version of Thor ever, I think, because he does get put through the wringer a couple times, including a bit where his fact gets scarred pretty badly and he decides to grow a beard to cover it. (That strategy could've saved Victor Von Doom some grief, eh?) There are great Superman stories too. For The Man Who Has Everything is a definite classic. A lot of good Superman stories deal with the impact of a being with such incredible powers has on humanity- Must There Be A Superman, and All-Star Superman are two excellent examples. There are good Silver Surfer and Martian Manhunter stories (quite often humanity viewed from the outside.) One of the greatest comic series of all time is Sandman, about a God of Dreams who has significantly more power than the entire JLA. Power is not an obstacle to good storytelling (in spite of what John Byrne might preach,) but it is an obstacle to the kind of stories one can tell. The more powerful the character, the more abstract the idea space needs to be to provide that character with believable challenges. Not everyone likes to live in the aether, but it IS the source of some great stories nonetheless.

This is an old man rant. You kids get off my lawn, that sort of thing. The part in italics especially. (/rant) I don't hold much with the "Thor is overpowered" argument because I've actually READ Thor, and watched him face Mangog and Ego the Living Planet, and watched him get smacked about by impossibly powerful beings (like Surtur) that many of the more outspoken comics fans on this site likes to *pretend* all comic book characters are. (Black Adam? Really, kids? Was Rynoc from the Omega Men busy? I remember a time when Black Adam was slumming it with Lion Mane and The Fadeway Man in the bargain bin at The Fantasy Farm. Don't tell me he loses to The Sub Mariner, that just means don't understand how comic books work.) The history of superhero comics is basically 50-80 years of Flavor of the Week storytelling, written by a few decent writers and a whole lot of bad ones. There is no general consensus, even among the Marvel Bullpen as to how powerful Thor is, so all the "proof" of these characters' "feats" is more or less pissing into the wind. The message board versions of these characters are NEVER indicative of an actual single documented instance of the character. By the way, if you don't know what was held, who held it, and where he did that, you don't know shit about Thor and have no business telling anyone ANYTHING about him. Period. In my opinion, y'all need to go READ some comics instead of arguing about their wikipedia entries on the internet.(/endrant) Having said that, I don't know a lot about Warhammer 40K, but what I have seen has turned me off. The game itself seems like a fun (if insanely expensive) hobby, but the accompanying fiction (again, what little I've encountered) seems to have been written by hacks who have absolutely no sense of scale. They'll use million, billion, and trillion interchangeably, and wholly make up and/or alter the basic parameters of the universe for lazy reasons. I believe a lot of the characters are "over-powered" simply by virtue of the fact that they were created by people who are terrible at applied math. I was shouted-down by a 40K fan after I complained how awful "Ravenor" was, because apparently I wasn't giving the universe a fair shake, so I read one called "Eldar Prophecy" which was even stupider. I admit I don't know a whole ton about Warhammer, but I'm not reading another page of that drek. I won't be fooled again.

Holmes would notice Bourne's stance, posture, breathing, physique, and micro-expressions, and then choose to attempt anything and everything other than a straight fight. The two end up having coffee, after which Bourne is incapacitated because Holmes put a knockout drug in his latte. C'est la guerre.

Jadzia is dropped into a holodeck simulation where she has to try and steal a ballpoint pen from Mycroft's breast pocket and escape unnoticed. They are at a costume party, and he doesn't know she's coming. Could she outwit the infamous elder Holmes brother?

It would stand to reason then, that any number of characters just-short-of omnipotence (like the Q continuum) would be free to operate normally, right? Because the Omnipotent characters are all spending their time stalemating one another?

I don't buy the omnipotence stalemate argument. TOAA can't coexist with other omnipotent entities and still be omnipotent. With the Marvel multiverse, yes, that would be true. However, this battle ostensibly takes place on some kind of "neutral ground" in which case, TOAA either doesn't exist (because the Marvel Multiverse IS essentially its entire existence,) or it is, by definition, no longer omnipotent. If The Presence and and YHVH and Eru and The Creator and Ea and whoever all coexist, they can only exist as a pantheon where either nobody is truly omnipotent, or everyone is. Either way, when you have more than two entities, power derives from consensus.

Before the Darkseid fans come in and steamroll everything, let me just say that Janeba is my favorite DBZ movie villain, (It's the only DBZ movie that really works in my opinion,) and making a totally unsubstantiated guess I'd put him around Superboy Prime level. I'm not really interested in whether or not he could be Darkseid, but if the two met, I believe Darkseid would have a new pet at his disposal.

obvious troll is obvious. Go back to penning Savage Dragon, Mr. Larsen.

Is it important to your story that the Watchmen know about his attack on their previous team members? If that's part of the storyline, I'd take out Veidt and Kovacs first, as they're the ones who would be the most dangerous to leave alive.

Remember when this thread was about Black Adam and Namor? Heh. I think Hank Henshaw, (and Black Adam, for that matter,) has been shown to have different powers at different times and so the message board versions of these characters are always vastly superior to their showing in any single comic issue. (Also known as Batman Syndrome, or BS for short.)